2023: Continued dead cap hell (Currently $54 Million)

[Iggles_Phan]

28 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

If density was the determining factor for something falling through a medium, then wouldnt the degree of density play a role in determining the rate of the fall?

Why would something as dense as a bowling ball fall at the same rate as something like a sponge?

Things that are dense enough to fall are still controlled by gravity. That is why there is a consistent rate of acceleration.

Why would there always be a consistent rate of acceleration if density was the determining factor, and density varies between objects?

The post he just made indicates he truly has no understanding of gravity, density or buoyancy.

[DrPhilly]

On 6/16/2022 at 4:27 AM, Iggles_Phan said:

The post he just made indicates he truly has no understanding of gravity, density or buoyancy.

He isn't interested in understanding it

[jsb235]

This has been a somewhat wild derail of a salary cap discussion.

[Aerolithe_Lion]

On 6/15/2022 at 5:01 PM, EagleVA said:

If you want to define "what's goes up must come down" then gravity exists.  Unfortunately for you that's not how gravity is defined, it's defines as a magical force.

In reality, when you speak of gravity, density and buoyancy is what you're observing.  If an object is denser that the medium it's in it will fall, I'm more dense than air, if I fall off a roof I fall through the air, if I'm carrying a helium balloon and let it go, it rises because helium is less dense than oxygen.

The same goes for objects in the medium of water, that's why  pebble will fall to the bottom of a lake but an aircraft carrier won't, the pebble is more dense than the carrier.

As far as the Earth falling down, the problem our having is you're thinking of a dumb flat earth, you know, the pancake floating in space with water flowing off of it.

One thing I've always noticed, dumb people think dumb.

Gravity defines where it will fall. Why do the less or more buoyant objects fall down, instead of to the left or two the right? Why does everything not simply fly off the side of the Earth? Because of gravity. Gravity is a different concept than buoyancy and density, it is a law that dictates those principles.

[EagleVA]

On 6/15/2022 at 9:57 PM, HazletonEagle said:

If density was the determining factor for something falling through a medium, then wouldnt the degree of density play a role in determining the rate of the fall?

Why would something as dense as a bowling ball fall at the same rate as something like a sponge?

Things that are dense enough to fall are still controlled by gravity. That is why there is a consistent rate of acceleration.

Why would there always be a consistent rate of acceleration if density was the determining factor, and density varies between objects?

There is something know air resistance, air resistance would effect the sponge more so than the bowling ball and air resistance would effect a feather more so than a sponge and etc.

If you take the sponge and put it on top of an object with the same density as the bowling ball such that it will block the air from getting under the sponge you'd find that both object fall at the same rate.......this has been demonstrated a thousand-and-one times. 

[EagleVA]

15 hours ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

Gravity defines where it will fall. Why do the less or more buoyant objects fall down, instead of to the left or two the right? Why does everything not simply fly off the side of the Earth? Because of gravity. Gravity is a different concept than buoyancy and density, it is a law that dictates those principles.

Fall to the left or right? 

GET REAL! 

CONSERVATION OVER!!

[EagleVA]

On 6/15/2022 at 9:32 PM, Iggles_Phan said:

If you are interested in actually learning about the things you are talking about here, PM me.  

I was taught the same thing you were taught concerning the shape of the earth, gravity, and what not, there's no need for me to hear it again because I've rejected those teachings.  

[Iggles_Phan]

3 hours ago, EagleVA said:

I was taught the same thing you were taught concerning the shape of the earth, gravity, and what not, there's no need for me to hear it again because I've rejected those teachings.  

Shame.  You reject the truth, and your 'model' has no basis in reality.  Good luck in your life.  We are done here.

[Aerolithe_Lion]

14 hours ago, EagleVA said:

Fall to the left or right? 

GET REAL! 

CONSERVATION OVER!!

Because you don’t have an argument?

[Iggles_Phan]

1 hour ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

Because you don’t have an argument?

He doesn't want to have a conversation, he wants to yell about conservation.  🤷‍♂️

[NYEagle]

Wait...wait....there is someone that actually believes the Earth is flat?  Forget the laws of physics, etc.....what are all those shots from space like from the shuttles and space station with the round Earth in the background?  CGI?

[NYEagle]

Maybe this is how or why some people think the world is flat?  As kids they were given these cookies?

[paco]

On 6/18/2022 at 8:56 AM, jsb235 said:

This has been a somewhat wild derail of a salary cap discussion.

It's my fault for blowing that dog whistle.  I'm not going to resist, just not going to feed into it either.

[Hawkeye]

2 hours ago, paco said:

It's my fault for blowing that dog whistle.  I'm not going to resist, just not going to feed into it either.

Yeah but at least it took an interesting turn.   Not much Eagles stuff to talk about either.

[paco]

Eagles land near the bottom of a PFF three-year salary cap analysis for all 32 NFL teams

[pallidrone]

3 hours ago, paco said:

Eagles land near the bottom of a PFF three-year salary cap analysis for all 32 NFL teams

The Eagles rank 6th overall for 'Top 51 Veteran Valuation' which is what matters the most and they even state that some of the better teams find themselves at the bottom of the list.

That means that the Eagles have identified certain players that are necessary for them to build a winning team and invested in them by bending the salary cap to their means. Having a bunch of cap space is pointless if you are not using it and using it somewhat wisely.

 

 

First, instead of just ranking each team in each of our five categories (explanations below) and then taking the average of the five rankings, we’re using z-scores to capture just how far from the league average each team deviates in each category. 

Second, we’ve weighted each category to better reflect its importance in salary cap/roster construction health. Most importantly, having a strong top 51 veteran valuation matters more — after all, who cares if you have a ton of salary cap space if you have no talent. Some of the league’s better teams still find themselves at the bottom of the list, which will understandably lead to criticism, but at the end of the day, we are still attempting to capture salary cap health first and foremost. 

[Iggles_Phan]

12 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

The Eagles rank 6th overall for 'Top 51 Veteran Valuation' which is what matters the most and they even state that some of the better teams find themselves at the bottom of the list.

That means that the Eagles have identified certain players that are necessary for them to build a winning team and invested in them by bending the salary cap to their means. Having a bunch of cap space is pointless if you are not using it and using it somewhat wisely.

Please identify these players.

[pallidrone]

Just now, Iggles_Phan said:

Please identify these players.

Goedert and Mailata for one.

[paco]

17 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

The Eagles rank 6th overall for 'Top 51 Veteran Valuation' which is what matters the most and they even state that some of the better teams find themselves at the bottom of the list.

That means that the Eagles have identified certain players that are necessary for them to build a winning team and invested in them by bending the salary cap to their means. Having a bunch of cap space is pointless if you are not using it and using it somewhat wisely.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Do you have how that is calculated?  I'm curious how they came up with that.

[pallidrone]

1 minute ago, paco said:

Do you have how that is calculated?  I'm curious how they came up with that.

Top 51 Veteran Valuation:

This is the total valuation of all players on each club’s top 51, excluding 2022 draft picks. This is a snapshot of their current value under 2022 market conditions, not a forecast of what they would theoretically cost on the open market after the season.

To ensure that clubs carry 90-man rosters during the offseason, only the 51 largest cap hits count against the salary cap. Thus, we have taken each team’s current top 51 cap-hit players, removed rookies and calculated the total value.

[Iggles_Phan]

3 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

Goedert and Mailata for one.

Um?   That's 2, not 1, and they don't make up the issue that the team has with the salary cap.  The trouble with the salary cap was caused by contracts like both Jacksons', Brooks', Cox, etc.  Lots of those are for players that are way beyond their ability to play to the level of their contract.  

And those contracts were just signed in the last year, not over the course of the last 3, like the criteria for that list was created.  

[pallidrone]

1 minute ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Um?   That's 2, not 1, and they don't make up the issue that the team has with the salary cap.  The trouble with the salary cap was caused by contracts like both Jacksons', Brooks', Cox, etc.  Lots of those are for players that are way beyond their ability to play to the level of their contract.  

And those contracts were just signed in the last year, not over the course of the last 3, like the criteria for that list was created.  

Then your problem is not with the salary cap or how it is manipulated but with roster management.

And yes I used poor English there. And here as well.

[Iggles_Phan]

Just now, pallidrone said:

Then your problem is not with the salary cap or how it is manipulated but with roster management.

And yes I used poor English there. And here as well.

It is ALL related.  The poor roster management exacerbated the salary cap issue.  They had to sign free agents because they couldn't draft.  They overvalued their aging vets, and over paid.  They tried to get cute with the salary cap and pay tomorrow for underperformance today, based on the performances of yesterday.  

 

And the final straw is people who claim that the salary cap trouble they are in is because they have identified the right players that are necessary to build around.  And when I ask for specifics, you give 2 of them that have almost no impact on the 2022 salary cap.

 

Here's the problem with the 2022 salary cap...

please note: Jeffery and Jackson haven't contributed ANYTHING to this team for TWO full seasons now.

 

Roster management, draft picks and the salary cap are intertwined.  It's a 3 legged stool.  Messing up one will impact the others.

[pallidrone]

10 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

It is ALL related.  The poor roster management exacerbated the salary cap issue.  They had to sign free agents because they couldn't draft.  They overvalued their aging vets, and over paid.  They tried to get cute with the salary cap and pay tomorrow for underperformance today, based on the performances of yesterday.  

 

And the final straw is people who claim that the salary cap trouble they are in is because they have identified the right players that are necessary to build around.  And when I ask for specifics, you give 2 of them that have almost no impact on the 2022 salary cap.

 

Here's the problem with the 2022 salary cap...

please note: Jeffery and Jackson haven't contributed ANYTHING to this team for TWO full seasons now.

 

Roster management, draft picks and the salary cap are intertwined.  It's a 3 legged stool.  Messing up one will impact the others.

I still don't see the problem. You are focusing on a single year (2022) instead of looking at it as a three to a four-year cap. They are moving money around between years to better utilize that money whether it is to use cap space from tomorrow for today or to convert cap space today for use for tomorrow (by use of LBTE).

They overpaid for a FA in Malik Jackson, which EVERY team in the league does. They expected a player that was never injured in his career to play well for them. He got hurt in his second game and never played for the Eagles again. They had to get rid of him and used salary cap manipulation to do so otherwise we would have been on the team, unable to participate, and eat up a roster spot for a player that could actually play. 

Brandon Brooks was one of the TOP guards in the league. Yes, he got hurt but players get hurt all the time. They expected him to stay here and continue to play at a high level. He couldn't stay healthy and had to retire. It happens.

Cox contract was more about 2023 than it was 2022. By taking the hit now, they did not have the take the hit next year. They can designate him as a 6/1 cut next year and take a minimal hit against his salary.

Then we are talking about poor drafting, but a lot of future draft capital was used in 2016 to move up to get Wentz. They had to supplement the lack of picks with veteran free agents. When Wentz crapped the bed, they used him to get more draft capital as well as to move back and forth in the draft. 

The only one that I felt was a big issue was Alshon Jeffery. I do not know why they had to guarantee his contract in 2020. Even with that said, as with Malik, they were able to get out of the payment by splitting it between years. By doing this they opened up space that they used to sign their 2021 draft class.

Barnett (and Lane Johnson) were restructured to open up space to allow them to resign players like Maddox, Goedert, Sweat, and Mailata. They borrow from 2022 to pay for 2021 and used a player that they were not going to keep as a way to do that. They paid $7 million in 2022 to make sure they could resign their current players, players they wanted to keep before they hit the open market. 

The cap is a flowing entity between the years. Some years it makes sense to borrow from the future at a lower rate than the current rate and other years it is better to push salary cap space forward.

[Iggles_Phan]

Let's take it point by point...

2 hours ago, pallidrone said:

I still don't see the problem. You are focusing on a single year (2022) instead of looking at it as a three to a four-year cap. They are moving money around between years to better utilize that money whether it is to use cap space from tomorrow for today or to convert cap space today for use for tomorrow (by use of LBTE).

No.  It was bad in 2021 before the Covid hit that knocked it down, but that made a bad situation worse.  2023 is also looking bad too, as you point out later in this post... they are carrying more dead cap for Cox to 2023, in addition to his dead hit for 2022, plus his $14M salary for this year, which I have a hard time believing that he'll actually live up to it.  The fact that they spread it out over three years isn't a good thing.  I love what Cox did here... but it was time to move on and deal with it.  

They overpaid for a FA in Malik Jackson, which EVERY team in the league does. They expected a player that was never injured in his career to play well for them. He got hurt in his second game and never played for the Eagles again. They had to get rid of him and used salary cap manipulation to do so otherwise we would have been on the team, unable to participate, and eat up a roster spot for a player that could actually play.  No, they overpaid for a declining player that was cut from his previous team due to a decline in his play.  The injury didn't help but his value was much lower than they gave him.

Brandon Brooks was one of the TOP guards in the league. Yes, he got hurt but players get hurt all the time. They expected him to stay here and continue to play at a high level. He couldn't stay healthy and had to retire. It happens.  No, they gave him a new deal to make him the highest OG in the NFL TWO full seasons before they had to, one year removed from an Achilles injury... and the history here with players who had suffered an Achilles injury blew out the other one a couple years later (we saw that with Demeco Ryans and Jordan Hicks).  It was unnecessary at the time they did it, but did it to free up money from that year they did it and push it to the future (the kicking of the can to the future isn't a new trick for Howie... and its just about his only trick when it comes to the cap.  Maybe he could have written those contracts with more incentives, health bonuses or something rather than just mortgaging the future.)

Cox contract was more about 2023 than it was 2022. By taking the hit now, they did not have the take the hit next year. They can designate him as a 6/1 cut next year and take a minimal hit against his salary.  See above.  For all that Joe Banner got wrong with evaluating talent, he recognized that you don't put big money into 30+ year old players, because the reality is that they can't maintain those levels of play from when they were 26-29 into their 30s... that's just the reality of the NFL.  And you can't afford to pay for past performances and expect to stay at the top.

Then we are talking about poor drafting, but a lot of future draft capital was used in 2016 to move up to get Wentz. They had to supplement the lack of picks with veteran free agents. When Wentz crapped the bed, they used him to get more draft capital as well as to move back and forth in the draft.  Wentz has nothing to do with the pathetic history of drafting WRs and CBs.  JJAW?  Agholor?  Reagor?  Resign Alshon?  Trade for and overpay Desean?  Sure.  That's all on Wentz though.  

The only one that I felt was a big issue was Alshon Jeffery. I do not know why they had to guarantee his contract in 2020. Even with that said, as with Malik, they were able to get out of the payment by splitting it between years. By doing this they opened up space that they used to sign their 2021 draft class.  That's how Howie works when he's kicking things down the road.  He moved money from 2019 to 2020 by guaranteeing the salary in 2020, even though he was NEVER a healthy guy and almost always was dealing with injury.

Barnett (and Lane Johnson) were restructured to open up space to allow them to resign players like Maddox, Goedert, Sweat, and Mailata. They borrow from 2022 to pay for 2021 and used a player that they were not going to keep as a way to do that. They paid $7 million in 2022 to make sure they could resign their current players, players they wanted to keep before they hit the open market.   Yes.  That's what Howie forces on himself because he has painted himself into a corner, and what he's doing now continues to paint himself into a corner into the future.  If they didn't have money available due to having dumped Wentz and his contract and had a QB working on a rookie deal, we'd be in a bigger pickle.  

The cap is a flowing entity between the years. Some years it makes sense to borrow from the future at a lower rate than the current rate and other years it is better to push salary cap space forward.   Yup, I've seen this argument before.   And I agree with it.  The issue is that Howie does it too much.  Ice Cream is great, but if that's all you eat, its a problem.  Howie needs to get a little smarter with these contracts and stop kicking them all down the road and giving out 1 year deals to players that cost more money once the player is gone than it did when he was actually here.  Maybe we should expect more Return on Investment rather than just looking for loopholes on how to minimize the amount of the investment by borrowing from the future when we expect that $100 is closer to $80.  Maybe find a way to invest the $100 today that actually pays off now and in the future by having a player that has impact in the future in addition to the past.