2 hours ago, EazyEaglez said:

"Arm talent” is overrated anyways, and frankly isn’t even Jalen’s problem. If Jalen had a weak arm he’s not overthrowing Quez Watkins who is the fastest receiver on the squad. Jalen’s problem is cognitive meaning he takes too long to process what he’s seeing on the field and it often leads to him throwing the ball too late. I also think his mechanics aren’t great where he does a lot of hop throws which tend to sail on him. He’s not stepping into his throws and a lot of this could be due to him constantly throwing on the run. He needs to learn how to trust the pocket and step into his throws which will improve his accuracy. He needs to trust what he sees out there and get the ball to his playmakers though I don’t blame him for having distrust in Jalen Reagor right now. I think this team offensively has too much youth and it’s costing them in games. They need to get a veteran receiver out there Jalen can trust to get the ball to, but he’s going to have to learn to be more patient in the pocket. Bottom line is Jalen has a lot of work to do this off-season but really his arm strength isn’t relevant. Heck Jamarcus Russell could throw the ball 60 yards downfield on one knee and he stunk. Joe Montana’s arm strength wasn’t very good and he’s one of the best all time.

Arm talent is not about throwing it for distance, most QB's can throw a rainbow 50 yards.  Here is the difference.  Both throws from the 40.  Both QB's can get it that far.  Nick Foles would never be able to drive the ball down the field like Josh Allen does.

And you are correct.  Joe Montana could never dream of driving the ball down field with the velocity that Jamarcus Russell and Jeff George could, but Montana was a surgeon, like Brady, who had such a grasp of what the defense is doing that they make up with intelligence what they do not have in big time arm talent.  Russell and George, like Wentz, do not have it upstairs to take advantage of the god given gift of a big time arm.

Jalen Hurts issue is he does not have a big time arm, but also is not processing and diagnosing fast enough to compensate.

 

1 hour ago, EazyEaglez said:

What is the better option? Drafting a quarterback from this years draft? Heck the guys in the third or later might be as good as the first round reaches we will definitely see. Most of these 2022 selections will not be ready to start week one. What’s the other option? Trading for a lesser tier guy like Cousins, Jimmy G, and Carr? Go take a look at their contracts. What’s the next option signing a free agent? The best guy on the market is Winston. Is he that much better for what he’s going to cost? The final option is Minshew. Personally I wouldn’t mind seeing them let those to battle it out for the job; however, the problem is Minshew is on the final year of his deal and now the Eagles would be forced to decide if they roll with him and give him a heart contract or look elsewhere. The bottom line is there are no other good options. 2023 is the target year. 

I'd add a third to the QB competition by the name of Mitch Trubisky. Carry 3 Qbs. May be able to trade one if need be. 3 way competition may the best man win.

8 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

All those things seem like something a QB could work on and get better at. Personally I don't know if Hurts can get better or not. What I do know is that I am not just going to dismiss a 23 year old kid that seems like a hard worker and wants to get better.

I guess I am just amazed that after watching a team coach up a kid that only played rugby in his life to become a really good tackle in the NFL, that so many people think that it is impossible for Hurts to ever get any better. That what we saw last year was it, that was his ceiling and there is no way in the world that he can ever get better.

I was neither for nor against Hurts at the beginning of the year - all I knew was that he was the starting QB, we didn't know a lot about him and that I hoped for the best. If he worked out awesome,  but if not it was a rebuilding year anyway and they were not just a QB away, so they could just find one in 2022 or 2023.

Now because of all the vitriol and venom that has been spewed at this kid, I am rooting very hard for him. I really hope he works hard, gets better and comes out like gang busters next year just to rub all these people face in the mud.

A lot of times players with Jalen’s problems get better with patience and experience. The game needs to slow down for him. If it clicks he could become special for them. On a side note most of the hate comes from two kinds of people. The first is the group who are still just mad he took over for Wentz. They had issue with him from the day he was drafted. They were more made at him than they were even at Howie. They completely ignored how terrible Went was all season and nitpicked ever little thing they could find about Jalen. The second group is the people who have a strong bias again mobile quarterbacks. Well a certain type of mobile quarterback, but I won’t get into that. Anyways they still think in old Jimmy the Greek type ways and are stuck in stereotypes. They claim mobile quarterbacks can’t win and always get even though people can point out several mobile quarterbacks who have won and have had long careers. Not to mention there are plenty of statue quarterbacks who never won a thing, and some who had their careers cut short due to injuries like Troy Aikman. Ultimately though Jalen is the one who has to prove the doubters wrong, and even when he does they will be back with their 1940s mindset and vitriol hate the first moment he makes a mistake. The same 🤡 to this day still make excuses for injury prone Wentz who never won a playoff game here in 5 years. 

7 minutes ago, judunno said:

Someone to compete with Hurts AND Minshew. Let's not sit here and pretend these guys can't use some competition. Especially considering that they are both pedestrian QBs at best at this juncture. Iron sharpens iron right? The best will earn it. The only time in these circumstances where you shouldn't have a competition is if you have a certified beast of a QB on the roster. We don't have that.

As for Howie he has a history of lying so I'll leave it at that. Who truly knows what's going on in that man's head other than himself. Besides you never want to show your hand out of desperation.

Who would be the third quarterback in that scenario? The only thing possible would be a late round quarterback who isn’t ready to be competition. Heck Flacco cost over 3 mil to come here and he basically stinks now and that’s a veteran option. Anything better than him could cost 10-20 mil is that really worth it? Seem like a waste of a resource on a team lacking in so many areas. 

6 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

Who would be the third quarterback in that scenario? The only thing possible would be a late round quarterback who isn’t ready to be competition. Heck Flacco cost over 3 mil to come here and he basically stinks now and that’s a veteran option. Anything better than him could cost 10-20 mil is that really worth it? Seem like a waste of a resource on a team lacking in so many areas. 

Mitch Trubisky. Keep it cheap this year. As I said in another post worst case you are buying a draft pick as they all would have a little trade value. I don't like the idea of bringing in anyone expensive given the holes that we have. Draft doesn't make sense. I'm in agreement there. Just thinking back to the Mike Vick competitions. I thought they were worth it 

14 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Arm talent is not about throwing it for distance, most QB's can throw a rainbow 50 yards.  Here is the difference.  Both throws from the 40.  Both QB's can get it that far.  Nick Foles would never be able to drive the ball down the field like Josh Allen does.

And you are correct.  Joe Montana could never dream of driving the ball down field with the velocity that Jamarcus Russell and Jeff George could, but Montana was a surgeon, like Brady, who had such a grasp of what the defense is doing that they make up with intelligence what they do not have in big time arm talent.  Russell and George, like Wentz, do not have it upstairs to take advantage of the god given gift of a big time arm.

Jalen Hurts issue is he does not have a big time arm, but also is not processing and diagnosing fast enough to compensate.

 

My point is that Jalen lacks the ability to process the game quickly, but that’s not something that will prevent him from improving just like Josh Allen did which took him two years to finally get better and he’s a first round pick. At least Josh has had a solid defense, the same coaching staff, and they brought in a star veteran receiver for him to work with too. Hurts is surrounded by a crappy defense, a rookie coach, new system, his first year as a starter, and weak/young receivers to work with. Meanwhile  you and many others are expecting HOF Jonny Unitas year one. Yet I never once saw you or many of the others in the peanut gallery ever once put that kind of pressure on your boy Wentz.

4 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

My point is that Jalen lacks the ability to process the game quickly, but that’s not something that will prevent him from improving just like Josh Allen did which took him two years to finally get better and he’s a first round pick. At least Josh has had a solid defense, the same coaching staff, and they brought in a star veteran receiver for him to work with too. Hurts is surrounded by a crappy defense, a rookie coach, new system, his first year as a starter, and weak/young receivers to work with. Meanwhile  you and many others are expecting HOF Jonny Unitas year one. Yet I never once saw you or many of the others in the peanut gallery ever once put that kind of pressure on your boy Wentz.

Wentz problem was decision making, something you can teach, and something he obviously has chosen not to respond to.  Hurts problem is all traits of a QB.  You can teach pre snap reads, diagnosing plays and progressing through reads.  Hurts has to be exceptional in these areas as he will never have a Mahomes or Allen arm.  You can not teach that, you can not develop that with time, you either have it or  you don't.

Just now, judunno said:

Mitch Trubisky. Keep it cheap this year. As I said in another post worse case you are buying a draft pick as they all would have a little trade value. I don't like the idea of bringing in anyone expensive given the holes that we have. Draft doesn't make sense. I'm in agreement there. Just thinking back to the Mike Vick competitions. I thought they were worth it 

Not sure what Mitch would cost. He’s still young so maybe bring him in, but I don’t think it’s feasible to have three guys like that on the roster. One would eventually have to be traded. Right now he’s on a contract for 2.5 mil. I think even that is more than Hurts and Minshew combined. 

Who really is the biggest beanbagger of them all?    It's pretty eazy to see.

4 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

Not sure what Mitch would cost. He’s still young so maybe bring him in, but I don’t think it’s feasible to have three guys like that on the roster. One would eventually have to be traded. Right now he’s on a contract for 2.5 mil. I think even that is more than Hurts and Minshew combined. 

2.5 is nothing. He may get a little more on inflation and circumstances of a weak draft class for QBs. As I said he would also be a potential trade asset if need be. The Eagles will probably have one of the cheapest QB positions in the league even if you add a third like Trubisky. This would also hedge against Minshew for another year who wants a starting job and may likely want an opportunity elsewhere.

1 minute ago, downundermike said:

Wentz problem was decision making, something you can teach, and something he obviously has chosen not to respond to.  Hurts problem is all traits of a QB.  You can teach pre snap reads, diagnosing plays and progressing through reads.  Hurts has to be exceptional in these areas as he will never have a Mahomes or Allen arm.  You can not teach that, you can not develop that with time, you either have it or  you don't.

Every quarterback isn’t to the level of Mahomes or Allen in arm strength. Hurts isn’t a problem on all levels of quarterback play. He’s shown numerous times he can make all the throws and make the correct decisions. He’s not doing it consistently and that the problem; however he’s young, a first year starter,  and he’s coachable. In a perfect world the Eagles probably would have preferred to groom Jalen for at least two years before they made him a starter. It didn’t turn out that way unfortunately so now he’s thrown into the fire. I’m guess they thought his process would be actually worse than it was, and they were pleased with his current development. 

1 minute ago, judunno said:

2.5 is nothing. He may get a little more on inflation and circumstances of a weak draft class for QBs. As I said he would also be a potential trade asset if need be. The Eagles will probably have one of the cheapest QB positions in the league even if you add a third like Trubisky. This would also hedge against Minshew for another year who wants a starting job and may likely want an opportunity elsewhere.

Well it’s certainly something to consider. I wouldn’t rule it out, but with how bad quarterback play is in the league as a whole right now I wouldn’t be surprised if someone were offering him the job for their team without the competition part. 

Just now, EazyEaglez said:

Well it’s certainly something to consider. I wouldn’t rule it out, but with how bad quarterback play is in the league as a whole right now I wouldn’t be surprised if someone were offering him the job for their team without the competition part. 

We're one of those teams with bad quarterback play.

Just now, judunno said:

We're one of those teams with bad quarterback play.

Yeah, but this team also has competition. Of course Flacco thought he was coming here to start too. He was never given a shot. Neither did Minshew get a chance. Truth is it’s probably little chance anyone gets a chance over Hurts. At least not this year. Now if he shows little to no improvement by the end of 2022 he’s probably going to be replaced. 

Just now, EazyEaglez said:

Yeah, but this team also has competition. Of course Flacco thought he was coming here to start too. He was never given a shot. Neither did Minshew get a chance. Truth is it’s probably little chance anyone gets a chance over Hurts. At least not this year. Now if he shows little to no improvement by the end of 2022 he’s probably going to be replaced. 

Trubisky isn't going to out right be given a starting job anywhere. Playoff appearance may have bought Hurts some time but hard to argue against a fair competition given his playoff showing. I don't see the harm in it and Hurts is used to proving himself. Would make him a better QB for it with some more experience like this in the QB room.

2 hours ago, EazyEaglez said:

The bottom line is there are no other good options. 2023 is the target year. 

Bad plan, you have the resources now, no clue how the 2023 class looks, and you are not getting a QB at pick19 if you go 9-8 and get rudely bounced from the playoffs again.

58 minutes ago, downundermike said:

That is correct.  You either have it or you don't.

Again - at what age does a player know? Why can't this question be answered?

4 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

Again - at what age does a player know? Why can't this question be answered?

Probably in high school.  What part of this is something you cant teach escapes you.  Tom Brady has played more professional football than anyone in the NFL right now.  Why haven't they taught him yet to throw with the velocity of Allen or Rodgers ??

Watch some of these throws, 1:39 is a good example.  These are throws Hurts can not and never will make, Josh Allen was making NFL throws in high school.

 

 

22 hours ago, pallidrone said:

So you are saying that it is impossible for anyone to work on their physical skills and become better?

I think physical skills are easier to develop than being able to see the field and open receivers, figure out what the defense is likely to do, that sort of thing. It's said Tom Brady knows where he's going with the ball before it's even snapped. I'm pretty sure Jalen doesn't and I'm not sure he can develop that in one offseason. We're all about to find out.

4 minutes ago, eglz1 said:

I think physical skills are easier to develop than being able to see the field and open receivers, figure out what the defense is likely to do, that sort of thing. It's said Tom Brady knows where he's going with the ball before it's even snapped. I'm pretty sure Jalen doesn't and I'm not sure he can develop that in one offseason. We're all about to find out.

If that is the case, why does Tom Brady not have an Allen, Rodgers or Mahomes type arm ??

5 minutes ago, downundermike said:

If that is the case, why does Tom Brady not have an Allen, Rodgers or Mahomes type arm ??

Because Brady's other attributes lessen the need for a rocket launcher arm.  Deep throws are not Brady's forte but he is capable of deep passes that end up in the correct zip code. He's deadly at the mocked "dink and dunk" though.

3 minutes ago, eglz1 said:

Because Brady's other attributes lessen the need for a rocket launcher arm.  Deep throws are not Brady's forte but he is capable of deep passes that end up in the correct zip code. He's deadly at the mocked "dink and dunk" though.

Brady had to develop those other attributes because they can be developed, you can not develop a Josh Allen, Patrick Mahommes or Aaron Rodgers arm.  You either have it or you don't.

2 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Brady had to develop those other attributes because they can be developed, you can not develop a Josh Allen, Patrick Mahommes or Aaron Rodgers arm.  You either have it or you don't.

Brady didn't develop those other attributes in one offseason though I'll bet. I don't know how his game at U Mich compared to his early games in New England.

34 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Probably in high school.  What part of this is something you cant teach escapes you.  Tom Brady has played more professional football than anyone in the NFL right now.  Why haven't they taught him yet to throw with the velocity of Allen or Rodgers ??

Watch some of these throws, 1:39 is a good example.  These are throws Hurts can not and never will make, Josh Allen was making NFL throws in high school.

 

 

I am just trying to understand this entire argument. So a player hits his ceiling in arm talent in high school. Up until high school that player has the ability to continue to work and grow and develop that arm talent, but once high school hits that is the end of their ability to increase their arm talent.

That is what I wanted to know - so basically all players stop developing arm talent in high school and at that point they are or are not but any time before high school, they still have the ability to develop. That is very interesting to me. So I guess unless those 17 year old kids out there have arm talent, there is no reason for them to continue to try.

17 hours ago, GeorgeM37 said:

You can make one of the most compelling and logical arguments (and you really did) and the fact is no matter what you say or prove....a large majority of these fans do not want Hurts here and are unwilling to give him anymore time. And they will swear it has everything to do with sportsmanship. But I applaud your effort here...it really is well thought out and very logical but I honestly think you are wasting your time. 

The big question to me -- Hurts shows some improvement next year though his weaknesses are still there. How many years do you give him?