But Howie, we’re a QB factory. Shouldn’t we draft a QB in the 1st round?

Would you want a WR who was short, slow, ran bad routes, and had bad hands, but blocked well?  Sure, blocking is nice, but he sucks at everything that is his primary job.

Would you want a CB who was short, slow, had no instincts for the football, could not play it in the air, poor technique, couldn't cover anyone, but tackled really well?  Sure, tackling is nice, but he sucks at everything that is his primary job.

Would you want a RB who was a poor athlete, ran with no power, had no elusiveness or speed, had no vision, but had a natural set of hands?  Sure, soft hands are nice, but he sucks at everything that is his primary job.  

Would you want a national league MLB pitcher with a bad arm, bad velocity, bad secondary pitches, bad accuracy, who gets rocked...but hits and fields the position better than almost all other pitchers?  Sure, a strong bat and glove are nice, but he sucks at everything that is his primary job.

 

Would you take ANY of those guys and say that we need to really commit to them and develop them as our future WR/CB/RB/pitcher?  No.  You would not.

So why would you commit to a short, noodle-armed inaccurate QB who cannot read defenses or go through progressions, but has excellent mobility?  

7 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

I am just trying to understand this entire argument. So a player hits his ceiling in arm talent in high school. Up until high school that player has the ability to continue to work and grow and develop that arm talent, but once high school hits that is the end of their ability to increase their arm talent.

That is what I wanted to know - so basically all players stop developing arm talent in high school and at that point they are or are not but any time before high school, they still have the ability to develop. That is very interesting to me. So I guess unless those 17 year old kids out there have arm talent, there is no reason for them to continue to try.

Not saying they do not get better, but you are tying to paint some narrative that Hurts can develop an arm like Allen.  NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

8 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Not saying they do not get better, but you are tying to paint some narrative that Hurts can develop an arm like Allen.  NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

Why don’t you quit using the stupid and vague term "arm talent” then, when it’s clear that what you mean is elite arm STRENGTH?

Why does Hurts have to develop arm strength equal to a guy with one of the top 3 strongest arms in the league anyway?

5 minutes ago, nipples said:

Why don’t you quit using the stupid and vague term "arm talent” then, when it’s clear that what you mean is elite arm STRENGTH?

Why does Hurts have to develop arm strength equal to a guy with one of the top 3 strongest arms in the league anyway?

It is not just strength though, it is making throws from multiple platforms.

1 minute ago, downundermike said:

Not saying they do not get better, but you are tying to paint some narrative that Hurts can develop an arm like Allen.  NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

All I am trying to do is understand this phrase of arm talent, what it is, how it works and when can someone get better or not at it. This phrase has seemed to have gained traction over the last few years and it makes no sense to me, and it makes no sense how someone can or can not be. You said it is not arm strength so OK it is not that. Then what is it and why is it something that can't be worked on?

I mean you keep showing passes from Josh Allen and saying that Jalen Hurts can't do that, but what about Hurts pass to Goedert in the end zone during the Falcons game?

So what was this pass? Is this arm talent or not? Where does a pass like this fall in the term of arm talent?

5 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

So what was this pass? Is this arm talent or not? Where does a pass like this fall in the term of arm talent?

It is a decent throw, but he had to put all of his body into it.  Allen or Mahommes flick that ball, and it only traveled 18-20 yards.  Allen and Mahomes could make that throw from the 30.

This is a similar throw, falling down, all arm.

 

7 hours ago, judunno said:

Agreed. At the very least you bring in someone to compete. Also Howie lies all the time. 

I don't think there'll be any legit competition.

6 minutes ago, downundermike said:

It is a decent throw, but he had to put all of his body into it.  Allen or Mahommes flick that ball, and it only traveled 18-20 yards.  Allen and Mahomes could make that throw from the 30.

This is a similar throw, falling down, all arm.

 

What about this throw to Fulgham last year? (go to 5:03)

What I see is a QB that if he stands tall in the pocket, plants his feet and throws, that he has plenty of arm strength to zip a ball into a place. What his problem is is that he tends to fall back on to what he did in college and that was to leave the pocket too early, dance around and never plant his feet properly. What I see is a QB that needs to work on his trust with his receivers, trust in his eyes and trust with his offensive line.

With all that said, I don't expect him to be the next incarnation of Jim Hart but my argument has been that IF a QB wanted to throw the ball harder from different levels, they can always train themselves to do that if they want to - it is not something that automagically just happens to a player. I also don't think you have to do that though. 

Then again I don't believe in the whole franchise QB nonsense either. I believe that a well rounded team with a QB that can limit turnovers and move the chains can be very successful in the NFL.

6 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

Then again I don't believe in the whole franchise QB nonsense either. I believe that a well rounded team with a QB that can limit turnovers and move the chains can be very successful in the NFL.

Tell me which team in the playoffs represents that model.

7 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

All I am trying to do is understand this phrase of arm talent, what it is, how it works and when can someone get better or not at it. This phrase has seemed to have gained traction over the last few years and it makes no sense to me, and it makes no sense how someone can or can not be. You said it is not arm strength so OK it is not that. Then what is it and why is it something that can't be worked on?

I mean you keep showing passes from Josh Allen and saying that Jalen Hurts can't do that, but what about Hurts pass to Goedert in the end zone during the Falcons game?

So what was this pass? Is this arm talent or not? Where does a pass like this fall in the term of arm talent?

IMO arm talent is all encompassing natural ability.  It's not just arm strength. To be a great QB you have to have more than just arm strength. As for arm strength, let's just say it has to be good enough. And let's not parse words, good enough is just that.

Some people have the natural ability to throw hard, but that's not the extent of arm talent. Accuracy matters, timing matters. Adjusting to different receivers matters - the ability to do these things well naturally is arm talent. 

Nolan Ryan once said that lower body strength and mechanics were more important to throwing a 100+ mph fastball than his actual arm strength. Most QBs have maxed out their ball velocity by the time they reach Pro Football but I think Hurts mechanics are trash which would mean he could actually improve. Better mechanics would also help his velocity from various platforms as seems to be the big concern.

I'm not really concerned about his "Arm Talent". He's shown that he can be deadly accurate, but not consistently. No where near reliably. My biggest concern is his inability to read defenses. He doesn't seem to understand coverages well enough. He overlooks wide open targets and is often late delivering to others. He does not possess the Arm Talent to overcome these deficiencies. But these are areas he "can" improve on. 

 

4 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Tell me which team in the playoffs represents that model.

San Francisco. They are a well rounded team with a QB that you would never call a franchise QB.

12 hours ago, EazyEaglez said:

Yet they’re still here. Those guys have been far greater mistakes than Hurts yet they’re still here. I think you’re the one expecting something that isn’t going to happen. You’re going to be disappointed.

JJAW was a 2nd rounder, Reagor a 1st.  They don't typically cut guys that soon and since they're on rookie deals they would keep them to see if they develop.  Let's see what happens this year.  They should look to sign a veteran WR.  Doesn't mean they will cut anyone right away, bring them all to camp.  JJAW could be cut sooner, or he could go through camp and just be cut before the final roster is set.  

Reagor is a major disappointment and a bust. But as a 1st round pick I can see them letting him enter his 3rd season to see how it goes.  Siri has already called Watkins the #2 and Reagor the #3.  

5 hours ago, EazyEaglez said:

Does Cousins make this roster better? He couldn’t even make it to the playoffs throwing to Thielen and Jefferson while they’re running with Cook. How about Carr? Does that guy take this roster over the top? I know you better than that. Just forget about Rodgers, Watkins, and Wilson. First of all none of them want to be here to begin with. What about Jimmy G? Does he move the needle? All of these guys contracts are so big the Eagles can’t afford to make proper roster moves without Howie kicking the can down the road a few more years to even get those guys under the cap. The bottom line is even if the Eagles want to upgrade from Hurts they can’t do it this year. They’re crossing their fingers and hoping he gets better or they try and upgrade in 2023 where they have more cap space. Anyone thinking the Eagles are going to make some big quarterback related move this season aren’t really paying attention. 

Look firstly I'm not behind a move for Wilson, Watson or Rodgers. Wilson and Rodgers are too expensive, their contracts too big and they are both too old. Watson is going to cost too much as well. I'm all for building this roster and I've stated that bud. But if I can trade something reasonable for Carr or Jimmy G? Sure I'd do that. When I say reasonable I mean no first round picks absolutely not. But yes both move the needle. 

12 hours ago, EazyEaglez said:

He was flat out asked the question and he said yes. He even went further as you said as wanting to build around him. Sirianni’s quote after the playoff game was also very pro Hurts despite the fact he acknowledged he had a bad game. People are grasping for straws here. The Eagles are telling everyone what they’re doing. Bottom line is no team is going to change their minds by offering them a trade of taking all of their first round picks. I’ll add if you hear what the Colts said about Wentz and compare it to what the Eagles said about Hurts you clearly see a difference. 

I don't think the answers were on either extreme.  They definitely expressed confidence in Hurts and said he's the starter.  But his first answer wasn't yes, it was vague and the reporter asked "so is that a yes?" 

But Howie also said several times open to opportunities to improve. open to trading picks for a QB. He always leaves open the possibilities. Of course he said build around him.  He has said every year in his post-season press conferences the need to build talent around the QB.  

14 hours ago, NOTW said:

You guys need to watch and listen to the press conference, not the cherry picked reporter takes.

At first, he didn't commit. Reporter pressed him, he said yes Hurts will be 2022 starter.  Then later another reporter said you said that last year about Wentz.  Howie laughed, then gave a vague answer about always looking for opportunities at every position to improve.  

Asked about trading picks for a QB:  says he's open to opportunities to improve any position, vague answer.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Nivraga said:

IMO arm talent is all encompassing natural ability.  It's not just arm strength. To be a great QB you have to have more than just arm strength. As for arm strength, let's just say it has to be good enough. And let's not parse words, good enough is just that.

Some people have the natural ability to throw hard, but that's not the extent of arm talent. Accuracy matters, timing matters. Adjusting to different receivers matters - the ability to do these things well naturally is arm talent. 

Nolan Ryan once said that lower body strength and mechanics were more important to throwing a 100+ mph fastball than his actual arm strength. Most QBs have maxed out their ball velocity by the time they reach Pro Football but I think Hurts mechanics are trash which would mean he could actually improve. Better mechanics would also help his velocity from various platforms as seems to be the big concern.

I'm not really concerned about his "Arm Talent". He's shown that he can be deadly accurate, but not consistently. No where near reliably. My biggest concern is his inability to read defenses. He doesn't seem to understand coverages well enough. He overlooks wide open targets and is often late delivering to others. He does not possess the Arm Talent to overcome these deficiencies. But these are areas he "can" improve on. 

 

Is that something that he can get better at though? I think he can if he works at it, but it seems like there is a thought that there is no way in the world that it can it happen.

11 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

San Francisco. They are a well rounded team with a QB that you would never call a franchise QB.

So 1 of the 8 remaining teams.  Seems like the franchise QB model, mostly with arm talent is working to a higher degree.  And Jimmy G is a way better QB than Hurts.

Y'all sounding like rstarter:  "dat arm talent doe" and "Good Lord, that arm!"

 

I see some are being very dense about the arm talent discussion. No matter how much i train, i will never be as fast as Tyreek Hill. No matter how many passes i throw, i will never be able to throw a football like Aaron Rodgers. No matter how much i work out, ill never look like your wife's celebrity crush. It's genetics. It's a difficult discussion for people to have because genetics are out of anyone's control. That's not to say that genetics are all that matters but i dont see how anyone could dispute how important they are when discussing arm talent. No matter how hard Hurts works, He'll never be able to make these throws because his body is not physically capable of doing so. You either have it or you dont.

 

 

5 hours ago, EagleJoe8 said:

 

I don’t think it could be clearer what I’m saying. Throughout their offseason discussions on how to improve the team, QB will be ONE aspect that they will discuss. There will be discussions about trades. There will be discussions about pending free agents. There will be discussions about QBs in the draft. 
 

That’s all I’m saying and all I’ve ever said. I haven’t said Hurts won’t be the guy. I haven’t said they are certain to acquire anyone through any means I’ve mentioned. I have said all options will be discussed. Why? Because that’s their job. 
 

Like I said, this has always been a very mundane comment I made earlier in this thread that you and T-1000 felt the need to blow up for some odd reason. 

So what you are saying is they are gonna use all their picks for a QB!? And what QB will it be!? Smart guy!

 

 

 

 

 

 

🤣🤣🤣🤣

1 minute ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

So what you are saying is they are gonna use all their picks for a QB!? And what QB will it be!? Smart guy!

 

 

 

 

 

 

🤣🤣🤣🤣

I think we trade pick 16 for Carson Wentz!

2 hours ago, downundermike said:

Brady had to develop those other attributes because they can be developed, you can not develop a Josh Allen, Patrick Mahommes or Aaron Rodgers arm.  You either have it or you don't.

I agree to a point, but the arm strength and delivery can be worked on and improved.  The differences aren't huge but are measurable.   Hurts' arm will never get to the level of those 3, because that would be a massive increase, but Hurts can still improve his arm talent... less wasted motion, higher velocity arm motion, but that won't put him into that range.

2 hours ago, eagle45 said:

Would you want a WR who was short, slow, ran bad routes, and had bad hands, but blocked well?  Sure, blocking is nice, but he sucks at everything that is his primary job.

Except for the short part, you just described JJAW to a "T". 

2 hours ago, pallidrone said:

 

 

Then again I don't believe in the whole franchise QB nonsense either. I believe that a well rounded team with a QB that can limit turnovers and move the chains can be very successful in the NFL.

Two teams that come to mind making your point are the 85 Bears and 2000 Ravens. They had all-world defenses though. And the league then was not the passing league it is today. Today you have to be able to score points and I'm not sure a run 80% of the time offense is going to be able to do that well enough.