1 hour ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

It's a jump in completion percentage but he already made a much larger jump from his rookie year to year 2. 

 

And yes I do expect those leaps.  Natural progression as a player plus playing in 2 more games. 

That first completion percentage was one of the worst I've seen in modern NFL so that should be jumped. Getting to 61.3% isn't that impressive considering much of this offense was done within five yards of the line of scrimmage.  His completion percentage was 28th in the league. The jump isn't impressive....it's actually part of the argument most of us are making  22nd in throwing touchdowns, 20th in yards...like he really went from dead last to 20s. I'm not impressed 

9 minutes ago, Shalodeep said:

That first completion percentage was one of the worst I've seen in modern NFL so that should be jumped. Getting to 61.3% isn't that impressive considering much of this offense was done within five yards of the line of scrimmage.  His completion percentage was 28th in the league. The jump isn't impressive....it's actually part of the argument most of us are making  22nd in throwing touchdowns, 20th in yards...like he really went from dead last to 20s. I'm not impressed 

Eli Manning had a 42 completion percentage his first year in the league and improved it to 52 percent the next year. I would think he played in the 'modern' era.

23 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

Eli Manning had a 42 completion percentage his first year in the league and improved it to 52 percent the next year. I would think he played in the 'modern' era.

I wouldn't say his rookie year was this modern era we are in now. He was drafted in 04. Do you think the league is even close to what it was back then? If you do, it explains a whole lot why you think Hurts is good lol  Do you not realize the top ten QBs are hall of fame talents and the next 4-5 would make it into the hall of very very good? 

This was from 2017

https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/sec-football/qb-curve-jalen-hurts-room-grow-alabama-need/

The Not-So-Good. Again, Hurts’ arm strength and accuracy were adequate, until they weren’t. But it’s impossible to separate his generally solid numbers through the air from the fact the entire passing game seemed designed — understandably — to give him the easiest throws possible as often as possible. According to ESPN Stats & Info, nearly 43 percent of Alabama’s pass attempts as a team were aimed at targets at or behind the line of scrimmage, the highest rate in the nation in 2016 and the highest rate of any FBS offense since 2011.

The film bears that out: A huge chunk of Hurts’ attempts throughout the season consisted of simple screens, shovels and swing passes that were in effect an extension of the running game. Many of Hurts’ biggest completions on paper actually came on safe, horizontal throws that his target subsequently broke for big yards after the catch; usually these types of plays hinged at least as much from the perimeter blocking by wide receivers as they did on their young quarterback. (Sometimes Hurts didn’t really even have to throw it: His stellar box score against Mississippi State, for example, was padded by the easiest 67-yard touchdown "pass” ever recorded — a quick shovel to motioning WR ArDarius Stewart, who took it to the house on what amounted to a jet sweep.) Coaches rarely asked him to stand in the pocket, set his feet, and read a coverage downfield against an oncoming rush.

That was an effective plan for a green passer, and departed play-caller Lane Kiffin deserved more credit than he typically received for keeping it running as smoothly as it did throughout the regular season without getting too stale or predictable. In the postseason, though, Hurts ran into real trouble at all levels. In the two Playoff games against Washington and Clemson, in particular, excluding a gimme touchdown pass in the championship game to a could-not-possibly-be-more-wide-open O.J. Howard thanks to a blown coverage by Clemson, he couldn’t get anything going short or long:

 

 

In terms of pass efficiency, the games against LSU, Washington and Clemson were Hurts’ worst of the season, and it’s no coincidence that those were also the defenses that devoured the short stuff, eliminated run-after-catch yards for Alabama’s playmakers, and forced Hurts to take chances downfield when he didn’t necessarily want to.

Most defenses on the schedule don’t have the athletes to pull that off even if they’ve got the Tide thoroughly scouted, but the few that do largely succeeded in making him look like just an ordinary freshman.

The Takeaway. There are plenty of good reasons to assume Hurts will make significant progress from the pocket, and even better reasons to assume it won’t really matter either way. Bama’s ground game has the makings of an irresistible force all on its own; if they’re so inclined, it’s easy to imagine the Tide rushing for 300 yards on a more or less weekly basis and relegating the downfield passing game to an accessory. As long as he doesn’t somehow regress, just continuing to hit the easy stuff and avoiding turnovers will probably be sufficient for 11 or 12 wins, minimum.

At some point, though, Hurts will likely have to prove that he can be counted on to make a top-shelf defense pay for loading up too heavily against the run. Best-case scenario, he does exactly that and puts all of these questions to bed on Saturday night with a couple of opportunistic bombs against FSU. Beyond that, the passing game will likely be a footnote until the Nov. 4 date with LSU. But if we don’t know any more about his arm by the Iron Bowl, then we might already know all we need to.

25 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

Eli Manning had a 42 completion percentage his first year in the league and improved it to 52 percent the next year. I would think he played in the 'modern' era.

Sam Bradford had a 60 completion percentage his first year and dropped to 53.5 percent the next year.

2 hours ago, jsb235 said:

Here's how I would counter this argument.

A top 5 NFL qb generates about 5,000 total yards in a season, 40 TDs and 15 turnovers. Last year Hurts - projected to 17 games - generated 4,400 yards, 30 TDs and 13 turnovers. So the gap between Hurts and the top QBs in the league is 600 yards and 10 TDs.

I know that this post will probably generate tons of "garbage time" and "running qbs can't win anything" replies, which is fine. People can spew that nonsense all they want. At the end of the day, if Hurts can generate 600 more yards and 10 TDs next year, he's the guy. If he can't, he isn't.

 

The QB shouldn't be running as much or even more than the RBs

2 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

The QB shouldn't be running as much or even more than the RBs

I get that a lot of people want Hurts replaced no matter what because they don't want a running qb, and therefore that ends the discussion for them.

I just happen to think if Jalen Hurts is 600 yards and 10 TDs shy of top 5 QB production, it really isn't that dumb to give him another year to see if he can get closer to that goal.

It's like the Moneyball discussion about walks versus hits. It really doesn't matter how a guy gets on base, as long as he gets on base.  

 

 

1 hour ago, eagle45 said:

So every player under 28 who has a season better than the one prior is automatically disqualified from being replaced?  Your exact criteria apply to Tim Tebow.  He improved, won more than Hurts ever did, and got replaced.  

 

Do the Eagles have the opportunity to get Peyton Manning still in his prime next season? 

1 hour ago, Shalodeep said:

That first completion percentage was one of the worst I've seen in modern NFL so that should be jumped. Getting to 61.3% isn't that impressive considering much of this offense was done within five yards of the line of scrimmage.  His completion percentage was 28th in the league. The jump isn't impressive....it's actually part of the argument most of us are making  22nd in throwing touchdowns, 20th in yards...like he really went from dead last to 20s. I'm not impressed 

 

A 9.3% increase from one year to the next isn't impressive?

Josh Allen went from 52.8% as a rookie 22 years old to 58.8% at 23 years old in his second season to 69.2% in his 3rd year at 24.

Hurts went from 52.0% as a rookie 22 years old to to 61.3%  at 23 years old in his second season and we will see how much of a jump he can make in his 3rd year at 24 years old.

 

Considering how this blog didn't see it possible for him to improve his completion percentage to 60+% in year two and he did I'd say he surpassed the expectations a bit to now try to downplay his improvement in that area as trivial.  

 

33 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

A 9.3% increase from one year to the next isn't impressive?

Josh Allen went from 52.8% as a rookie 22 years old to 58.8% at 23 years old in his second season to 69.2% in his 3rd year at 24.

Hurts went from 52.0% as a rookie 22 years old to to 61.3%  at 23 years old in his second season and we will see how much of a jump he can make in his 3rd year at 24 years old.

 

Considering how this blog didn't see it possible for him to improve his completion percentage to 60+% in year two and he did I'd say he surpassed the expectations a bit to now try to downplay his improvement in that area as trivial.  

 

Minshew improved from 60.6% to 66.1% .  Game over.

56 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

A 9.3% increase from one year to the next isn't impressive?

Josh Allen went from 52.8% as a rookie 22 years old to 58.8% at 23 years old in his second season to 69.2% in his 3rd year at 24.

Hurts went from 52.0% as a rookie 22 years old to to 61.3%  at 23 years old in his second season and we will see how much of a jump he can make in his 3rd year at 24 years old.

 

Considering how this blog didn't see it possible for him to improve his completion percentage to 60+% in year two and he did I'd say he surpassed the expectations a bit to now try to downplay his improvement in that area as trivial.  

 

And Josh throws all the way down field, not in a conservative offense so his numbers actually make sense. What doesn't make sense is being under 65% in a super safe throw offense. If you think Allen is a fair comparison without understanding the context of the play calling, then this conversation is fruitless... like not understanding that through just watching a little football makes me feel like you are trolling me lol 

 

17 minutes ago, Shalodeep said:

And Josh throws all the way down field, not in a conservative offense so his numbers actually make sense. What doesn't make sense is being under 65% in a super safe throw offense. If you think Allen is a fair comparison without understanding the context of the play calling, then this conversation is fruitless... like not understanding that through just watching a little football makes me feel like you are trolling me lol 

 

Talk about not watching football.  You think the Bills have been running this high octane passing offense Allen's entire career.  He didn't really take off as a passer until his 3rd year.  

Josh Allen 1st year: 6.5 YPA

Josh Allen 2nd year: 6.7 YPA

 

Hurts 1st year: 7.2 YPA

Hurts 2nd year: 7.3 YPA

7 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

 

Double standard, no? 

Those meaningless 4000 yards were a large part of why that team made the playoffs... but that means nothing.   Hurts, on the other hand, gets credit for making the playoffs and no mention of 'quickly got bounced out'.    🤔

 

Objectivity?  Nah, you just have your hatred stance and can't see anything else.   These were back to back posts.  That's the most ironic part about it. 

And you got the same result didn’t you though? Both were bounced early in the playoffs so if I’m using a double standard aren’t you as well? By the way that 4000 yard team also got there by beating up on bad teams. Again you guys kiss Carson’s beanbag for it but crucify Hurts for it. Can’t get more double standard than that bro. 

1 hour ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

A 9.3% increase from one year to the next isn't impressive?

Josh Allen went from 52.8% as a rookie 22 years old to 58.8% at 23 years old in his second season to 69.2% in his 3rd year at 24.

Hurts went from 52.0% as a rookie 22 years old to to 61.3%  at 23 years old in his second season and we will see how much of a jump he can make in his 3rd year at 24 years old.

 

Considering how this blog didn't see it possible for him to improve his completion percentage to 60+% in year two and he did I'd say he surpassed the expectations a bit to now try to downplay his improvement in that area as trivial.  

 

Ah once again...the biggest strength anyone can find for Hurts is that Josh Allen sucked in year 2.

27 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

Talk about not watching football.  You think the Bills have been running this high octane passing offense Allen's entire career.  He didn't really take off as a passer until his 3rd year.  

Josh Allen 1st year: 6.5 YPA

Josh Allen 2nd year: 6.7 YPA

 

Hurts 1st year: 7.2 YPA

Hurts 2nd year: 7.3 YPA

781 vs 580 are the attempts numbers. That's a crap 200 attempts that could easily bring that ypa down for Allen. Again, context. Easier to have higher numbers when you have much less attempts.  Also curious why everyone is holding on to Allen as the rule verses the needle in the haystack he is, completely ignoring that he is in almost every way better than Hurts 

5 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Ah once again...the biggest strength anyone can find for Hurts is that Josh Allen sucked in year 2.

 

Are you just imagining words on the screen that you are then reading?  Who is saying this is Jalen's biggest strength or saying anything to even indicate that is what is being stated?

I'm pointing out that you need to let  young QBs develop.  It is possible for QBs to improve dramatically over the first few years of their career.  We witnessed improvement from year 1 to year 2 for Hurts and I have every reason to believe that he will again improve in year 3 and to a degree that I think will be bigger than his improvement from year 1 to year 2.  

15 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

Are you just imagining words on the screen that you are then reading?  Who is saying this is Jalen's biggest strength or saying anything to even indicate that is what is being stated?

I'm pointing out that you need to let  young QBs develop.  It is possible for QBs to improve dramatically over the first few years of their career.  We witnessed improvement from year 1 to year 2 for Hurts and I have every reason to believe that he will again improve in year 3 and to a degree that I think will be bigger than his improvement from year 1 to year 2.  

They aren't comparable due to the raw talent that they began with.  The difference between them from a starting point is diamond in the rough versus you can't make a diamond  without pressure. One is ready to be molded while the other is way behind 

 

3 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

Are you just imagining words on the screen that you are then reading?  Who is saying this is Jalen's biggest strength or saying anything to even indicate that is what is being stated?

I'm pointing out that you need to let  young QBs develop.  It is possible for QBs to improve dramatically over the first few years of their career.  We witnessed improvement from year 1 to year 2 for Hurts and I have every reason to believe that he will again improve in year 3 and to a degree that I think will be bigger than his improvement from year 1 to year 2.  

Excluding leadership, running ability, personality, swag, locker room respect, and work ethic, what is the most commonly referenced reason for retaining Hurts as starter?

 

16 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

Are you just imagining words on the screen that you are then reading?  Who is saying this is Jalen's biggest strength or saying anything to even indicate that is what is being stated?

I'm pointing out that you need to let  young QBs develop.  It is possible for QBs to improve dramatically over the first few years of their career.  We witnessed improvement from year 1 to year 2 for Hurts and I have every reason to believe that he will again improve in year 3 and to a degree that I think will be bigger than his improvement from year 1 to year 2.  

Not every QB gets the opportunity to improve as a starter...because some QBs are deemed to be sufficiently under-talented and not worth the opportunity.  Plenty of QBs just don't get a chance in the pros.

My argument that Hurts is at the talent level where the chance just isn't deserved.

5 minutes ago, Shalodeep said:

781 vs 580 are the attempts numbers. That's a crap 200 attempts that could easily bring that ypa down for Allen. Again, context. Easier to have higher numbers when you have much less attempts.  Also curious why everyone is holding on to Allen as the rule verses the needle in the haystack he is, completely ignoring that he is in almost every way better than Hurts 

 

Weird strategy but let's just take a look then at where they were at with similar attempts.  If we take Allen's rookie year and then go 9 games into his second season to get to 284 attempts + 320 as a rookie = 604 total attempts to compare the averages.

 

Allen 1st year: 52.8%, 6.5 YPA & 67.9 QB rating.

Allen 2nd year up to 284 attempts: 59.9%, 6.8 YPA & 81.6 QB rating.

 

Hurts 1st year: 52.0%, 7.2 YPA & 77.6 QB rating.

Hurts 2nd year: 61.3%, 7.3 YPA & 87.2 QB rating.  

 

Not a needle in a haystack for a QB to develop over time when they show continued improvement from year to year.  

57 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

And you got the same result didn’t you though? Both were bounced early in the playoffs so if I’m using a double standard aren’t you as well? By the way that 4000 yard team also got there by beating up on bad teams. Again you guys kiss Carson’s beanbag for it but crucify Hurts for it. Can’t get more double standard than that bro. 

There you go again.  You can't have an adult conversation.  It's a shame.  

19 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Excluding leadership, running ability, personality, swag, locker room respect, and work ethic, what is the most commonly referenced reason for retaining Hurts as starter?

 

He's cheap.

18 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Excluding leadership, running ability, personality, swag, locker room respect, and work ethic, what is the most commonly referenced reason for retaining Hurts as starter?

 

No idea.  But I would say beyond those intangibles it's his age, development as a passer, winning ability and ability to raise his level of play at the end of games and ability to be a playmaker at the position to delivery a big play when it is needed.  All together it seems like a no-brainer to see how big of a jump he is capable of making in year 3.  If he doesn't make any sort of jump then it's more than reasonable to believe he has hit his ceiling but I don't see that as the case with him so I expect a very noticeable leap forward as a QB in 2022.  

13 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Not every QB gets the opportunity to improve as a starter...because some QBs are deemed to be sufficiently under-talented and not worth the opportunity.  Plenty of QBs just don't get a chance in the pros.

My argument that Hurts is at the talent level where the chance just isn't deserved.

 

Yeah  not every QB does get the opportunity and you probably have a lot of guys that could have played in this league but never got the honest chance to develop and do that.  Who knows if Tom Brady even surfaces as anyone in this league if injuries didn't give him the chance to play and start despite being a 6tth round draft pick.  

 

But Hurts is being given the opportunity to improve as a starter because he has earned that thus far with his improvement from year 1 to year 2 and then in his first year as the starter taking this team and very young and inexperienced offense to the playoffs.  

There is the josh Allen BS again lol

27 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

Weird strategy but let's just take a look then at where they were at with similar attempts.  If we take Allen's rookie year and then go 9 games into his second season to get to 284 attempts + 320 as a rookie = 604 total attempts to compare the averages.

 

Allen 1st year: 52.8%, 6.5 YPA & 67.9 QB rating.

Allen 2nd year up to 284 attempts: 59.9%, 6.8 YPA & 81.6 QB rating.

 

Hurts 1st year: 52.0%, 7.2 YPA & 77.6 QB rating.

Hurts 2nd year: 61.3%, 7.3 YPA & 87.2 QB rating.  

 

Not a needle in a haystack for a QB to develop over time when they show continued improvement from year to year.  

I'll have to pick this up tomorrow. Sadly back at work. I appreciate you actually coming with more than  "cause I like him" arguments