4 hours ago, downundermike said:

Heart and drive mean nothing without an arm.  

Scouting reports on Tom Brady before the draft:

 "Lacks a really strong arm. Can't drive the ball down the field and does not throw a really tight spiral."

"Backup. Could be a #2 in this league for a long time. Has the size but not enough arm."

"Awful. Not even on my board. Weak. He’ll make somebody a good husband or a good medical salesman."

Nobody is saying Hurts is Brady. The positives on Brady coming out of college were not similar to Hurts. The only reason Brady is being discussed is because he had the desire to get better, the drive to get there, and put in the work everyday. He was motivated to prove people wrong. In this topic people are downplaying Hurts "working on his passing with Tom Brady." Tom Brady is there working on his game because he knows you can't ever be content. How much of that has an influence on Hurts, I don't know. But the most important take that everybody is glossing over is that Hurts is working with Tom House (as is Brady). Hurts is not content to be the guy we saw last year --- a guy that showed moderate improvement from his rookie season, but fell flat in his first postseason start. There's evidence that Hurts wants to get better, is trying to get better, is putting in the work to improve. He's seeking out the right people for help. 

2 hours ago, brkmsn said:

Scouting reports on Tom Brady before the draft:

 "Lacks a really strong arm. Can't drive the ball down the field and does not throw a really tight spiral."

"Backup. Could be a #2 in this league for a long time. Has the size but not enough arm."

"Awful. Not even on my board. Weak. He’ll make somebody a good husband or a good medical salesman."

Nobody is saying Hurts is Brady. The positives on Brady coming out of college were not similar to Hurts. The only reason Brady is being discussed is because he had the desire to get better, the drive to get there, and put in the work everyday. He was motivated to prove people wrong. In this topic people are downplaying Hurts "working on his passing with Tom Brady." Tom Brady is there working on his game because he knows you can't ever be content. How much of that has an influence on Hurts, I don't know. But the most important take that everybody is glossing over is that Hurts is working with Tom House (as is Brady). Hurts is not content to be the guy we saw last year --- a guy that showed moderate improvement from his rookie season, but fell flat in his first postseason start. There's evidence that Hurts wants to get better, is trying to get better, is putting in the work to improve. He's seeking out the right people for help. 

Where did Brady's success come from when he started games earlier in his career?

From the pocket, and in a different era of football (2001) he had a nearly 64% completion rate, which is still higher than Hurts today.  And that was in his 'basically a rookie' season.  And during that first season, the Patriots went on to win the Super Bowl... and Brady led the team to the game winning FG in the Super Bowl in a two minute drill, PASSING the ball to move the chains.  

Wow, talk about a false equivalency.  Can we find a QB who is short, with a weak arm, bad visioned, and limited mechanics that was a one read and run QB to compare him to... please?  

31 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Where did Brady's success come from when he started games earlier in his career?

From the pocket, and in a different era of football (2001) he had a nearly 64% completion rate, which is still higher than Hurts today.  And that was in his 'basically a rookie' season.  And during that first season, the Patriots went on to win the Super Bowl... and Brady led the team to the game winning FG in the Super Bowl in a two minute drill, PASSING the ball to move the chains.  

Wow, talk about a false equivalency.  Can we find a QB who is short, with a weak arm, bad visioned, and limited mechanics that was a one read and run QB to compare him to... please?  

He works hard!!!!!!!really really hard!!!!!

On a side note Tom house does find a way to maximize QBs with below average arms and makes them average.... Does mean it will fix everything else though. 

1 hour ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Wow, talk about a false equivalency.  Can we find a QB who is short, with a weak arm, bad visioned, and limited mechanics that was a one read and run QB to compare him to... please?  

Give me a break ... Try reading all of the post. I'm not saying Hurts is a carbon copy of Brady. The fact remains that both QBs came into the NFL with scouts questioning their arms. One was an unathletic pocket passer and one was an athletically gifted dual-threat. Brady came into the NFL with a better ability to read defenses and go through progressions. Hurts compensates for his weaknesses there by making plays with his feet. Both QBs believe in working hard to improve. Both have gone outside the organization to get instruction. Both, now, have entrusted Tom House to help them improve. 

I have been discussing the notion that "ceiling" is tangible. I think it's just a cliche used by people to justify their projection, nothing more. You can't measure a player's heart, drive, or desire. 

43 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

Give me a break ... Try reading all of the post. I'm not saying Hurts is a carbon copy of Brady. The fact remains that both QBs came into the NFL with scouts questioning their arms. One was an unathletic pocket passer and one was an athletically gifted dual-threat. Brady came into the NFL with a better ability to read defenses and go through progressions. Hurts compensates for his weaknesses there by making plays with his feet. Both QBs believe in working hard to improve. Both have gone outside the organization to get instruction. Both, now, have entrusted Tom House to help them improve. 

I have been discussing the notion that "ceiling" is tangible. I think it's just a cliche used by people to justify their projection, nothing more. You can't measure a player's heart, drive, or desire. 

Tom House also worked with Carson Wentz, Cody Kessler, Tim Tebow, Terrelle Pryor, Blake Bortles, Matt Cassell, Jarod Goff, and Marcus Mariota.

Hurts' biggest problems aren't with his 'arm' they are with his eyes and his mind.  He doesn't seem to see the left side of the field, likely struggles to see over his OL, doesn't trust the pocket and can't seem to anticipate.   Tom House (a former MLB pitcher) isn't going to help him with these deficiencies.  He's just going to help him deliver the ball more efficiently.  House isn't a 'QB' guru.  He's a 'throwing' guru.  

On 4/8/2022 at 3:26 PM, Iggles_Phan said:

There you go again.  You can't have an adult conversation.  It's a shame.  

He's cheap.

Minshew is cheaper

2 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

Minshew is cheaper

22 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Tom House also worked with Carson Wentz, Cody Kessler, Tim Tebow, Terrelle Pryor, Blake Bortles, Matt Cassell, Jarod Goff, and Marcus Mariota.

Hurts' biggest problems aren't with his 'arm' they are with his eyes and his mind.  He doesn't seem to see the left side of the field, likely struggles to see over his OL, doesn't trust the pocket and can't seem to anticipate.   Tom House (a former MLB pitcher) isn't going to help him with these deficiencies.  He's just going to help him deliver the ball more efficiently.  House isn't a 'QB' guru.  He's a 'throwing' guru.  

House has also worked with Brees, Prescott, Brady, Mahomes, Luck, Smith, Ryan, etc... Hurts has several areas he needs to improve and House can absolutely help him become a better passer. 

8 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

House has also worked with Brees, Prescott, Brady, Mahomes, Luck, Smith, Ryan, etc... Hurts has several areas he needs to improve and House can absolutely help him become a better passer. 

Obviously... he's worked with great Qbs, and he's worked with bad QBs.   What does that mean?  It means House is no miracle worker whom always has success with everyone he works with.  Hurts working with House doesn't mean anything about his future trajectory, one way or the other.  And as I said, his throwing mechanics aren't his biggest issue.

The connection to Brady, House and the pre-draft scouting reports add up to nothing of any meaning.

5 hours ago, brkmsn said:

Scouting reports on Tom Brady before the draft:

 "Lacks a really strong arm. Can't drive the ball down the field and does not throw a really tight spiral."

"Backup. Could be a #2 in this league for a long time. Has the size but not enough arm."

"Awful. Not even on my board. Weak. He’ll make somebody a good husband or a good medical salesman."

Nobody is saying Hurts is Brady. The positives on Brady coming out of college were not similar to Hurts. The only reason Brady is being discussed is because he had the desire to get better, the drive to get there, and put in the work everyday. He was motivated to prove people wrong. In this topic people are downplaying Hurts "working on his passing with Tom Brady." Tom Brady is there working on his game because he knows you can't ever be content. How much of that has an influence on Hurts, I don't know. But the most important take that everybody is glossing over is that Hurts is working with Tom House (as is Brady). Hurts is not content to be the guy we saw last year --- a guy that showed moderate improvement from his rookie season, but fell flat in his first postseason start. There's evidence that Hurts wants to get better, is trying to get better, is putting in the work to improve. He's seeking out the right people for help. 

So the only criteria necessary for a 3 year starting commitment is wanting to get better?  Brady wanted to get better.  Hurts wants to get better.  Good thing they both share that incredibly rare desire to get better that most professional athletes lack.

I'm sold now.  

1 hour ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Obviously... he's worked with great Qbs, and he's worked with bad QBs.   What does that mean?  It means House is no miracle worker whom always has success with everyone he works with.  Hurts working with House doesn't mean anything about his future trajectory, one way or the other.  And as I said, his throwing mechanics aren't his biggest issue.

The connection to Brady, House and the pre-draft scouting reports add up to nothing of any meaning.

Nobody is a "miracle worker." They can be a good teacher and hopefully get results, but it takes work by the student as well. I don't really care how you rank Hurts' "issues." One of his biggest issues is getting the ball out quickly. Improvement to his mechanics can certainly help there. His accuracy is also affected by mechanics. So if he can generally improve in those regards, they can also boost his confidence in those moments where he has to decide  to trust his WR to finish getting open and not hesitate causing a late throw that is easily contested. He still has his coaching staff to help him read defenses and coverages and he also keeps in contact with the Mannings (mostly Peyton) trying to learn what he can from one of the NFL's best in that area. 

I think we've already established that pre-draft reports are meaningless. This whole debate regarding Jalen Hurts is simply a matter of what kind of an NFL player will he eventually become? Write him off in you want. IMO, it's pretty stupid to write someone off prematurely --- especially a young player that has improved from year 1 to year 2. 

1 hour ago, eagle45 said:

So the only criteria necessary for a 3 year starting commitment is wanting to get better?  Brady wanted to get better.  Hurts wants to get better.  Good thing they both share that incredibly rare desire to get better that most professional athletes lack.

I'm sold now.  

Criterion #1 --- Beat the competition. Win the job. 

Criterion #2 --- Help the team win games.

Criterion #3 --- Continue to improve.

8 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

Nobody is a "miracle worker." They can be a good teacher and hopefully get results, but it takes work by the student as well. I don't really care how you rank Hurts' "issues." One of his biggest issues is getting the ball out quickly. Improvement to his mechanics can certainly help there. His accuracy is also affected by mechanics. So if he can generally improve in those regards, they can also boost his confidence in those moments where he has to decide  to trust his WR to finish getting open and not hesitate causing a late throw that is easily contested. He still has his coaching staff to help him read defenses and coverages and he also keeps in contact with the Mannings (mostly Peyton) trying to learn what he can from one of the NFL's best in that area. 

I think we've already established that pre-draft reports are meaningless. This whole debate regarding Jalen Hurts is simply a matter of what kind of an NFL player will he eventually become? Write him off in you want. IMO, it's pretty stupid to write someone off prematurely --- especially a young player that has improved from year 1 to year 2. 

Criterion #1 --- Beat the competition. Win the job. 

Criterion #2 --- Help the team win games.

Criterion #3 --- Continue to improve.

What happens when there is no competition and the "just win baby” argument is being applied to a .500 team?

3 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

What happens when there is no competition and the "just win baby” argument is being applied to a .500 team?

I'm sure Chicken Little would be proud of the work you do in here. 

15 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

I'm sure Chicken Little would be proud of the work you do in here. 

Yea chicken little, Nick Saban, the Bucs coach that laughed Hurts off the field, and myself.  

3 hours ago, brkmsn said:

House has also worked with Brees, Prescott, Brady, Mahomes, Luck, Smith, Ryan, etc... Hurts has several areas he needs to improve and House can absolutely help him become a better passer.   to throw the ball better.

Difference.  House can help him with his mechanics and to throw a better ball.  That's just 1 part of the equation.  The troubling part is Hurts' ability to process quickly enough (we'll include going through his progressions with this part), to read a D, to anticipate where to throw the ball, and to see enough of the field.  If can't improve on those things enough then it won't matter how much better he can throw the ball.  Nice that he's working on his mechanics, but that's just one of several areas he's currently lacking and needs to improve upon and this is the easiest one of the lot.

 

I'm so tired of the Hurts Huggers and their forward looking delusions.

Either Hurts will prove he can play or we move on.

2 hours ago, CouchKing said:

I'm so tired of the Hurts Huggers and their forward looking delusions.

Either Hurts will prove he can play or we move on.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that's their attitude as well

1 hour ago, CouchKing said:

I'm so tired of the Hurts Huggers and their forward looking delusions.

Either Hurts will prove he can play or we move on.

Hurts Huggers also feel this way. No one has ever said that they should keep playing him if there is a better option, or that they shouldn't pursue a better option.

But the team has made it clear that they don't see the available veteran options - Garoppolo, Mayfield, etc. - as being better. We will see what the team thinks of the draft class in a few weeks, but my guy feeling is that they aren't sold on those guys either or else they wouldn't have pushed draft capital into 2023.

That's the official Hurts Huggers position. He should get another year, and if he doesn't improve enough, we move on.

Ironically, by you saying "Either Hurts will prove he can play or we move on," you are self-identifying as a Hurts Hugger. And you are far from the only one. Several people on here who are clearly anti-Hurts have grudgingly admitted he is the team's best short-term option, so I am guessing self-loathing is the reason this topic keeps getting brought up.

You hate Hurts (not him as a person, him as a football player), but you can't bring yourself to quit him.  

5 minutes ago, jsb235 said:

You hate Hurts (not him as a person, him as a football player), but you can't bring yourself to quit him.  

False.  No hate, just truth that he is not good enough.

11 minutes ago, downundermike said:

False.  No hate, just truth that he is not good enough.

That's kinda where I am. When a player hasn't been able to remove literally any negative that was on his scouting report after two years, I begin to worry about what his progressions really are

8 minutes ago, downundermike said:

False.  No hate, just truth that he is not good enough.

Yes, we all agree he's not good enough. Apparently you don't know what self-loathing is, so let me explain.

You hate Jalen Hurts (again, not the person, but the fact that he is a starting qb) yet, deep down, you realize he is their best option right now. So this creates an internal conflict which causes you to post thinks like this (he's not good enough) over and over again to try and reconcile your feelings. 

26 minutes ago, jsb235 said:

You hate Hurts (not him as a person, him as a football player), but you can't bring yourself to quit him.  

I would trade Hurts and start Minshew now, if it were up to me.

5 minutes ago, jsb235 said:

Yes, we all agree he's not good enough. Apparently you don't know what self-loathing is, so let me explain.

You hate Jalen Hurts (again, not the person, but the fact that he is a starting qb) yet, deep down, you realize he is their best option right now. So this creates an internal conflict which causes you to post thinks like this (he's not good enough) over and over again to try and reconcile your feelings. 

I actually disagree. Us having to accept he will start when some believe there is a better option on the bench is the major problem. Most can agree there are some projects in the draft, but not prospects.

someone said lacks the eyes(figuratively), for focusing on the field...it's what's between your ears, and ability to see the whole field and not panic...I think Brady had this from the start. Hurts will not throw any long TD passes....BUT he is the only option right now...Maybe he might improve slightly.....Next year

14 minutes ago, jsb235 said:

Hurts Huggers also feel this way. No one has ever said that they should keep playing him if there is a better option, or that they shouldn't pursue a better option.

But the team has made it clear that they don't see the available veteran options - Garoppolo, Mayfield, etc. - as being better. We will see what the team thinks of the draft class in a few weeks, but my guy feeling is that they aren't sold on those guys either or else they wouldn't have pushed draft capital into 2023.

That's the official Hurts Huggers position. He should get another year, and if he doesn't improve enough, we move on.

Ironically, by you saying "Either Hurts will prove he can play or we move on," you are self-identifying as a Hurts Hugger. And you are far from the only one. Several people on here who are clearly anti-Hurts have grudgingly admitted he is the team's best short-term option, so I am guessing self-loathing is the reason this topic keeps getting brought up.

You hate Hurts (not him as a person, him as a football player), but you can't bring yourself to quit him.  

First bolded part:  I, as have many others who don't think Hurts can be 'the guy', do not see the value in either Jimmy G or Bishy Baker.  In terms of how much money each will cost compared to what they offer (both have been playing on better overall teams and have failed to get their teams 'over the hump') there's just not enough value in investing mid/long term with either of them.  They've both hit their ceilings and aren't worth their price tags.

Second bolded part:  False.  We recognize that the FO will give Hurts his 'sink or swim' season in 2022 to see if he can improve enough to be the QB going forward and earn a 2nd contract.  However, we also feel that he will ultimately sink instead of swim and we'll be using our draft capital in 2023 to try and find the right QB.  I think the majority of us would rather have Minshew as QB for 2022 to see a better glimpse at what Sirianni's O could be and to see Smith/Watkins have some passes come their way when they are open or about to come wide open (you know, the plays Hurts has left on the field because he either just didn't see it in the 1/3 of the field he can see or froze instead of pulling the trigger like when he was staring at Watkins coming open for a TD in the playoff game vs TB and instead ran to his left to throw an incomplete pass).  And we know Minshew is simply a stopgap and we'll be QB hunting in the draft in 2023, but he can read a D and anticipate much better than Hurts.