1 minute ago, Shalodeep said:

I actually disagree. Us having to accept he will start when some believe there is a better option on the bench is the major problem. Most can agree there are some projects in the draft, but not prospects.

This is a classic self-loathing response. Deep down you don't really think this. There's some part of your brain that knows that a player who didn't outperform Blake Bortles (look at their qbrs when both were with the Jags) under similar circumstances isn't a quality NFL starter. So saying this is simply repression of your true feelings.

21 minutes ago, jsb235 said:

Yes, we all agree he's not good enough. Apparently you don't know what self-loathing is, so let me explain.

You hate Jalen Hurts (again, not the person, but the fact that he is a starting qb) yet, deep down, you realize he is their best option right now. So this creates an internal conflict which causes you to post thinks like this (he's not good enough) over and over again to try and reconcile your feelings. 

11 minutes ago, jsb235 said:

Yes, we all agree he's not good enough. Apparently you don't know what self-loathing is, so let me explain.

You hate Jalen Hurts (again, not the person, but the fact that he is a starting qb) yet, deep down, you realize he is their best option right now. So this creates an internal conflict which causes you to post thinks like this (he's not good enough) over and over again to try and reconcile your feelings. 

What?  So now you're a self help guru or a shrink?

As I stated in a reply just minutes ago, which makes this bolded part fallacious, what we realize is that the FO is going to give him a chance and he will be the starting QB in 2022.  At least to start the season, but should he tank then at some point they'd have to make a change.  The majority of us feel Minshew is the better option to play QB.  We accept the FO will give the job to Hurts without any TC/PS competition.  They have to as they've proven before that they'll go out of their way to try and save face and won't admit to a mistake until it's proven beyond any doubt. 

We're not expecting Hurts to improve enough to be considered the QB going forward because he has too many flaws in his game and the worst ones are the ones that are hardest to learn and take the most time to overcome.  Should some unlikely minor miracle happen where the light bulb suddenly comes on for him and he improves at an almost quantum leap level and shows he can be a QB to make a playoff run with then we'll all be happy to exchange recipes for how we'd like our crow served.  We're just more expecting to see the Hurts of 2021 with maybe a marginal improvement at best, which still won't be near good enough, but we know his opportunity will be at the behest of the FO and not because we think he's the best option.

 

44 minutes ago, jsb235 said:

This is a classic self-loathing response. Deep down you don't really think this. There's some part of your brain that knows that a player who didn't outperform Blake Bortles (look at their qbrs when both were with the Jags) under similar circumstances isn't a quality NFL starter. So saying this is simply repression of your true feelings.

A QB with a higher completion percentage and a high TD/int ratio vs a guy who gets backup QB and RB numbers ...I'm taking the first guy. Don't know where you learned psyche, bout you aren't good at it

63.2 42/12 vs 59 22/13 .... Hurts has thrown more interceptions than minshew has in their careers already and minshew smokes him in tds thrown 

Also, Blake was irresponsible with the ball leading to high high interception count. 

50 minutes ago, Green_Guinness said:

The majority of us feel Minshew is the better option to play QB.

This is ridiculous to me, because between the two of them, if there's one player who you can say "He is what he is" at this point and a career backup, it's definitely Minshew. There's next to no upside there. At least with Hurts, there's that dynamic edge and some mystery as to how he might pan out. This is why I say the fans want style over substance. They want someone with panache and a flare for the dramatic, not a humble workhorse who quietly goes about his business, burns the midnight oil, and keeps his head down while steadily grinding away. They want "The 'stache, bro!!!" 

 

46 minutes ago, Green_Guinness said:

The majority of us feel Minshew is the better option to play QB.  We accept the FO will give the job to Hurts without any TC/PS competition.  They have to as they've proven before that they'll go out of their way to try and save face and won't admit to a mistake until it's proven beyond any doubt. 

but we know his opportunity will be at the behest of the FO and not because we think he's the best option.

 

I can't change what you believe to be true. You think Hurts starting over Minshew is the front office trying to save face rather than the team making decisions they think will have the best outcome. And I am sure you are ready to try and drag me down a rabbit hole with you.

But for one second, try to get your head around the fact that maybe the team playing Hurts over Minshew isn't a conspiracy theory to help Howie Roseman save face, but rather because there is a pretty wide consensus in the NFL community that this is the smart thing to do.

Think of it like this. If you were interviewed on ESPN, and you spent that time talking about how Minshew is a better option than Hurts, and the fact that he isn't playing is a conspiracy theory that the team is engaged in to help Howie Roseman save face, how do you think that would be received by other people on the show? As something deeply insightful or as an unhinged rant by a fan?   

1 hour ago, jsb235 said:

Yes, we all agree he's not good enough. Apparently you don't know what self-loathing is, so let me explain.

You hate Jalen Hurts (again, not the person, but the fact that he is a starting qb) yet, deep down, you realize he is their best option right now. So this creates an internal conflict which causes you to post thinks like this (he's not good enough) over and over again to try and reconcile your feelings. 

The fact that you agree he is not good enough so I am not self loathing.  There is better options.  Minshew being one, and multiple QB’s in the draft.

1 hour ago, Green_Guinness said:

First bolded part:  I, as have many others who don't think Hurts can be 'the guy', do not see the value in either Jimmy G or Bishy Baker.  In terms of how much money each will cost compared to what they offer (both have been playing on better overall teams and have failed to get their teams 'over the hump') there's just not enough value in investing mid/long term with either of them.  They've both hit their ceilings and aren't worth their price tags.

Second bolded part:  False.  We recognize that the FO will give Hurts his 'sink or swim' season in 2022 to see if he can improve enough to be the QB going forward and earn a 2nd contract.  However, we also feel that he will ultimately sink instead of swim and we'll be using our draft capital in 2023 to try and find the right QB.  I think the majority of us would rather have Minshew as QB for 2022 to see a better glimpse at what Sirianni's O could be and to see Smith/Watkins have some passes come their way when they are open or about to come wide open (you know, the plays Hurts has left on the field because he either just didn't see it in the 1/3 of the field he can see or froze instead of pulling the trigger like when he was staring at Watkins coming open for a TD in the playoff game vs TB and instead ran to his left to throw an incomplete pass).  And we know Minshew is simply a stopgap and we'll be QB hunting in the draft in 2023, but he can read a D and anticipate much better than Hurts. 

 

Yup.

1 hour ago, jsb235 said:

This is a classic self-loathing response. Deep down you don't really think this. There's some part of your brain that knows that a player who didn't outperform Blake Bortles (look at their qbrs when both were with the Jags) under similar circumstances isn't a quality NFL starter. So saying this is simply repression of your true feelings.

Minshew’s numbers on a clearly worse Jacksonville team are better than Hurts through the same number of starts.

15 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

This is ridiculous to me, because between the two of them, if there's one player who you can say "He is what he is" at this point and a career backup, it's definitely Minshew. There's next to no upside there. At least with Hurts, there's that dynamic edge and some mystery as to how he might pan out. This is why I say the fans want style over substance. They want someone with panache and a flare for the dramatic, not a humble workhorse who quietly goes about his business, burns the midnight oil, and keeps his head down while steadily grinding away. They want "The 'stache, bro!!!" 

 

Go on.  Minshew has 22 career starts and has produced at a higher level as a QB.  Hurts has 19 starts and has produced at a higher level as a RB.  

No one thinks Minshew is a long term solution, just that he enables Sirianni to implement the offense he really wants to run, rather than the one he has to run because of Hurts' limitations.

 

Minshew at 25 years old and 22 starts is a known quantity.
Hurts at 24 years old and 19 starts has upside left.

 

Just so we are clear... that 'dynamic edge' exists only when he runs, not when he passes the ball.  When he passes the ball, there is no mystery.    And just so we are crystal clear... this isn't about 'style over substance'.  A running QB based offense offers no real substance in the NFL.  In NCAA... sure, go for it.  In the NFL, that never works for long.  So, we want sustainability.  I couldn't care less about the 'stache'.  I care far more about what the QB does inside the pocket.  That's all that really matters to me, because that's where QBs win in the playoffs.

11 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

This is ridiculous to me, because between the two of them, if there's one player who you can say "He is what he is" at this point and a career backup, it's definitely Minshew. There's next to no upside there. At least with Hurts, there's that dynamic edge and some mystery as to how he might pan out. This is why I say the fans want style over substance. They want someone with panache and a flare for the dramatic, not a humble workhorse who quietly goes about his business, burns the midnight oil, and keeps his head down while steadily grinding away. They want "The 'stache, bro!!!" 

 

Yeah, because Hurts posting his workout videos is someone who is humble and going about his business quietly. 

And as has been pointed out before that Minshew is only 2 years older than Hurts and they have played in about the same number of games, yet Hurts comes from a better football background and would have gotten better coaching (dad is a HS HC, had a year with Daboll, had a year with Riley the most hands on HC for QBs in college) than Minshew.  Why is it Hurts still needs time to develop and Minshew is the finished product?  That's another go-to for the Hurts Huggers.  Why can't Minshew improve some?  Please explain in detail why he is the finished product and can't possibly improve more.  So when Hurts hits 25 then he's the finished product and won't ever get any better, at least going by your reasoning (or maybe even sooner because I'm sure you'd think that Minshew has always been the finished product even before age 25).  So he has 2 years to turn into a playoff caliber QB or he's toast and considering the many facets of his game he has to overcome to get to that level it's more likely he ends up toast. 

Yeah, his ONE dynamic edge of running the football.  Don't you think any DC with half a brain and a whole season of tape on Hurts (especially the TB playoff game) is going to take away his running lanes and negate his one dynamic quality?  There's a reason running QBs don't win in the playoffs.

 

36 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Go on.  Minshew has 22 career starts and has produced at a higher level as a QB.  Hurts has 19 starts and has produced at a higher level as a RB.  

No one thinks Minshew is a long term solution, just that he enables Sirianni to implement the offense he really wants to run, rather than the one he has to run because of Hurts' limitations.

 

Minshew at 25 years old and 22 starts is a known quantity.
Hurts at 24 years old and 19 starts has upside left.

 

Just so we are clear... that 'dynamic edge' exists only when he runs, not when he passes the ball.  When he passes the ball, there is no mystery.    And just so we are crystal clear... this isn't about 'style over substance'.  A running QB based offense offers no real substance in the NFL.  In NCAA... sure, go for it.  In the NFL, that never works for long.  So, we want sustainability.  I couldn't care less about the 'stache'.  I care far more about what the QB does inside the pocket.  That's all that really matters to me, because that's where QBs win in the playoffs.

In 3 more starts Minshew  has 12 more passing TD’s, 1 less interception ( with 270 more attempts ) and did that on a laughing stock of a Jacksonville team.  Has 1700 more passing yards also.

How anyone thinks Minshew has not shown more potential as a pro is beyond me.  

Minshew’s final college season numbers are far superior.

3 minutes ago, downundermike said:

In 3 more starts Minshew  has 12 more passing TD’s, 1 less interception ( with 270 more attempts ) and did that on a laughing stock of a Jacksonville team.  Has 1700 more passing yards also.

How anyone thinks Minshew has not shown more potential as a pro is beyond me.  

Yeah, but he doesn't run, so he's not dynamic.

27 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Go on.  Minshew has 22 career starts and has produced at a higher level as a QB.  Hurts has 19 starts and has produced at a higher level as a RB.  

No one thinks Minshew is a long term solution, just that he enables Sirianni to implement the offense he really wants to run, rather than the one he has to run because of Hurts' limitations.

 

Minshew at 25 years old and 22 starts is a known quantity.
Hurts at 24 years old and 19 starts has upside left.

 

Just so we are clear... that 'dynamic edge' exists only when he runs, not when he passes the ball.  When he passes the ball, there is no mystery.    And just so we are crystal clear... this isn't about 'style over substance'.  A running QB based offense offers no real substance in the NFL.  In NCAA... sure, go for it.  In the NFL, that never works for long.  So, we want sustainability.  I couldn't care less about the 'stache'.  I care far more about what the QB does inside the pocket.  That's all that really matters to me, because that's where QBs win in the playoffs.

I feel if minshew was given a west coast offense to cover his below average arm strength and good yac guys, he would be around the 15 range. He won't ever be a star, but he has good numbers coming from weak teams 

21 minutes ago, Shalodeep said:

I feel if minshew was given a west coast offense to cover his below average arm strength and good yac guys, he would be around the 15 range. He won't ever be a star, but he has good numbers coming from weak teams 

Minshew has a better arm than Hurts

45 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Minshew has a better arm than Hurts

I'd say better anticipation and decision making than arm. Minshew trust what he sees and let's it go.

Whoops. Thought I was in the Jalen Hurts thread. 

10 hours ago, brkmsn said:

Whoops. Thought I was in the Jalen Hurts thread. 

Discussing better options at the moment 

Also, if Hurts had these attributes, we wouldn't be discussing Minshew, but focusing on the drafting him weapons ... Actually if he had those attributes with his legs, people would be asking the question if he could sneak in the top ten...but he doesn't, and the ones he has now are the same as every other fad QB of the last 20 years 

On 4/8/2022 at 8:35 AM, eagle45 said:

Here is the core of what I just fail to comprehend from Hurts' supporters:

We have a very bad passer at QB...someone who has improved from a very, very bad passer.  His ceiling is likely that of a better, but still below average passer.  By the time he reaches that ceiling, his compensatory running ability will likely have tailed off.

So my question...what the hell are we arguing about here?  Is this seriously how low you want to set the bar for the most important position in sports for the franchise that we all rabidly support?

I think it's an interesting point you made. I think fans are just longing for that long-term consistent winner like some other teams have been able to find and until that happens, they're rationalizing and evaluating what they have.  I think the bar is low on certain positions or aspects of the team and others the bar is high, and I think it's mostly based on past experience.   I'll start with an example of where the bar is high for contrast:

Offensive line: I'd say the bar is high because they've had some really solid lines and some really great players over the years.  So fans come to expect it.  When Jason Peters was on his way out for a couple years fans were looking for them to draft and groom a replacement and not willing to accept just a decent starter they expected a great talent.  Dillard was heavily criticized because he wasn't living up to that expectation.  Mailata is now embraced and he got the contract extension and that position is solidified.  

Linebacker: The bar is low at linebacker because of how they haven't valued it with high draft picks or investing in free agency or trades there.  They invest in D line and corner and the LB position doesn't have star players.  So when a mediocre LB makes some plays fans hype him up a bit more than warranted because it's nice to finally see something good out of that position.  If they ever draft a LB that becomes a star defensive player we won't know how to react it's been so long.

So now the QB position to your point.  There's the famous line going back decades that the most popular player in Philadelphia is the backup QB.  I'm going to only go back as far as McNabb right now for the sake of more recent discussion but QB criticism certainly happened prior as well.  McNabb was never fully embraced by everyone as a great QB, he got a lot of criticism for certain things.  Since he left, they haven't had a consistent long-term winner at QB.  Each of them have had elements of their game lacking, even QBs that did some really good things and showed promise but for various reasons didn't work out.  I think fans get tired of the QB carousel and so Hurts comes along and shows some promise and coming off a really horrible season by Wentz he was embraced, ok let's see what this guy can do.  The bar is such that some people want Minshew to start.  

Then you have comparison to teams around the league who have solid QB play that is consistent and fans are longing for when the Eagles finally get that.  You also have the idea that it's not easy to find that so in the meantime, you get a decent starter and build around him.  It seems that most fans realize Hurts is not a long-term answer who is going to be elite, a top 5 QB but also that he's not terrible.  He's a placeholder and better option that having a QB who totally sucks.  I know some fans think he sucks but he doesn't.  He isn't a great passer, and I agree his ceiling isn't a whole lot higher.  I do think think he'll do everything he can to improve and it does seem Howie wanted future extra picks for flexibility should they decide to get a new QB after this year.  I also think another reason is people are afraid of moving on and the next QB is worse, like a QB they draft ends up being a bust so they embrace the guy who is doing ok and they were in the playoffs so build around him.  I thought the playoffs highlighted pretty plainly that need for a top QB to lead the team but we'll see what the organization does here.

21 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Go on.  Minshew has 22 career starts and has produced at a higher level as a QB.  Hurts has 19 starts and has produced at a higher level as a RB. 

Well, the truth is that they're both young and inexperienced with room to grow, but maybe I should just use the formula you guys use for Hurts: "Doesn't pass the eye-test! Low ceiling! He sucks because I said so, end of discussion!"
 

90% of Minshew's TD passes happened almost two years ago. The recent sample size is so small that you can only take it with a fine grain of salt, but if you compare their recent history, they are relatively comparable, even with Minshew padding his stats against the hapless Jets.

47 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

Well, the truth is that they're both young and inexperienced with room to grow, but maybe I should just use the formula you guys use for Hurts: "Doesn't pass the eye-test! Low ceiling! He sucks because I said so, end of discussion!"
 

90% of Minshew's TD passes happened almost two years ago. The recent sample size is so small that you can only take it with a fine grain of salt, but if you compare their recent history, they are relatively comparable, even with Minshew padding his stats against the hapless Jets.

In 22 starts, Minshew has 41 passing touchdowns. That's 1.86 touchdowns per start.

In 19 starts, Hurts has 22 passing touchdowns. That's 1.16 rounded up. You would have to add his rushing touchdowns to get to 1.85 touchdowns per start. 

Which of these is sustainable? 

 

Actually touchdowns per start, minshew has a higher number than Joe Burrow (1.81). There is a reason people look at Minshew and his situation in Jacksonville and wonder "what if?"  I feel if hurts could convert 50% of his rushing totals to in air, he may get way more support than he has now. Hurts could actually learn an abundance from the mustache man in the QB room, even if it's just the mindset of just letting it rip. 

 

And the hapless Jets comment is hilarious considering the week before Hurts got handed his ass on a plate by the Giants

43 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

Well, the truth is that they're both young and inexperienced with room to grow, but maybe I should just use the formula you guys use for Hurts: "Doesn't pass the eye-test! Low ceiling! He sucks because I said so, end of discussion!"
 

90% of Minshew's TD passes happened almost two years ago. The recent sample size is so small that you can only take it with a fine grain of salt, but if you compare their recent history, they are relatively comparable, even with Minshew padding his stats against the hapless Jets.

Sure.  

No one has said that Minshew is the answer, he'd be a place holder as well.   And so the issue comes down to how the limitations of each impacts the roster and team as a whole.  One would allow a more balanced passing attack and letting the HC implement the offense he came here looking to run.  The other forces a complete overhaul of the offense, forces them into being a run dominant team, and loads up on passing plays that are at or behind the LOS rather than anything even remotely down the field (and by 'down the field', I literally mean 5 or more yards beyond the LOS).

3 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Sure.  

No one has said that Minshew is the answer, he'd be a place holder as well.   And so the issue comes down to how the limitations of each impacts the roster and team as a whole.  One would allow a more balanced passing attack and letting the HC implement the offense he came here looking to run.  The other forces a complete overhaul of the offense, forces them into being a run dominant team, and loads up on passing plays that are at or behind the LOS rather than anything even remotely down the field (and by 'down the field', I literally mean 5 or more yards beyond the LOS).

I do not understand why people can not grasp this concept.

3 minutes ago, downundermike said:

I do not understand why people can not grasp this concept.

Because they ignore the first half of the season is my guess...even though the second half wasn't much better