8 hours ago, Shalodeep said:

Let's wait til Jalen hits 30! He is only 24, can you imagine the growth?! 

He'd still basically be a rookie at 30, so expectations need to be reasonable.

1 hour ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Imagine that... a player got benched and sat behind one of the greatest QBs to ever play, coached by one of the greatest QB coaches of all-time and actually learned how to play the position properly...  check out the quarterback he was in Tampa and what he became in SF.  Not the same guy at all.

So a player can improve after his first couple seasons --- even after being a high draft pick (after playing 2 seasons in a different professional league)? Imagine the patience they must have had with such a guy that would eventually become a HOFer. 

8 hours ago, brkmsn said:

So a player can improve after his first couple seasons --- even after being a high draft pick (after playing 2 seasons in a different professional league)? Imagine the patience they must have had with such a guy that would eventually become a HOFer. 

Imagine how willing the player had to be to be patient himself and to sit while he learned and not try to 'get freaky'.  Imagine how discipline the coaching staff had to be to not allow him to get away with running as a design of the offense, but rather to force him to learn how to play within the pocket.   There needs to be a commitment to making that transformation from all parties involved.  That is not our current situation.  They are not committed to transforming Hurts' style of play.  On the contrary, they are leaning in to his style of play.  That leads to (as history continues to show) short term success and long term frustration.

Reid had McNabb sit to start his career, rather than rushing him into games, so that he would learn the NFL passing game.  Reid had Mahomes sit to start his career, so that he too would learn the NFL passing game.   They both maintain(ed) their mobility, but are(were) primarily passers, rather than runners.  The NFL has changed over the years, but over the years it has changed even more to favor passing over running.  That's no different for the QB, in fact, on the contrary, it is even more important for the QB.  The QB gets the protections from the pocket, the OL knows where the QB will be and how to ride the DL past the pocket, and the QB can stay in rhythm when he passes the ball on time and on target, from the pocket.  The improv stuff is nice for highlight reels, but there's no evidence to suggest that it is an important piece to winning in the NFL.  In fact, on the contrary, the evidence is heavily weighted towards the opposite... running more leaves the QB vulnerable to hits, reducing their effectiveness in years to come as they heal less quickly as the hits accumulate and their body ages... and it leaves their mind vulnerable to creative defensive schemes designed to keep them in the pocket and having to decipher what is happening in the coverage, while they are uncomfortable.

34 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Imagine how willing the player had to be to be patient himself and to sit while he learned and not try to 'get freaky'.  Imagine how discipline the coaching staff had to be to not allow him to get away with running as a design of the offense, but rather to force him to learn how to play within the pocket.   There needs to be a commitment to making that transformation from all parties involved.  That is not our current situation.  They are not committed to transforming Hurts' style of play.  On the contrary, they are leaning in to his style of play.  That leads to (as history continues to show) short term success and long term frustration.

Reid had McNabb sit to start his career, rather than rushing him into games, so that he would learn the NFL passing game.  Reid had Mahomes sit to start his career, so that he too would learn the NFL passing game.   They both maintain(ed) their mobility, but are(were) primarily passers, rather than runners.  The NFL has changed over the years, but over the years it has changed even more to favor passing over running.  That's no different for the QB, in fact, on the contrary, it is even more important for the QB.  The QB gets the protections from the pocket, the OL knows where the QB will be and how to ride the DL past the pocket, and the QB can stay in rhythm when he passes the ball on time and on target, from the pocket.  The improv stuff is nice for highlight reels, but there's no evidence to suggest that it is an important piece to winning in the NFL.  In fact, on the contrary, the evidence is heavily weighted towards the opposite... running more leaves the QB vulnerable to hits, reducing their effectiveness in years to come as they heal less quickly as the hits accumulate and their body ages... and it leaves their mind vulnerable to creative defensive schemes designed to keep them in the pocket and having to decipher what is happening in the coverage, while they are uncomfortable.

In case you forgot, Hurts didn't start the first 12 games of his rookie year (very similar to McNabb). In fact both McNabb and Hurts were given limited snaps in each game leading up to their starting moments. Both QBs relied heavily on their running skills early in their careers. Both QBs accounted for around 85% of their team's offense in their first full starting season (2nd year). One big difference between McNabb's era and Hurts' era is that there wasn't as many talented, successful QBs across the NFL. That led to McNabb actually being a Pro Bowler beginning his 2nd season compared to Hurts being an alternate. McNabb was tasked with learning the WCO. Reid had to dumb that down for years while McNabb got comfortable in it. McNabb's all time leading receiving position group is RB because Reid turned him into a check-down machine. Another big difference between McNabb's offense and Hurts' is the use of read option and RPO. Those haven't historically been popular builds in the modern NFL, but as we all know, times change. The RPO was a huge reason we had success in 2017 with Foles, so before you discount the style, be reminded that it can work at this level. 

Running more does not necessarily leave the QB vulnerable to hits. There's a valid argument that by running out of bounds and sliding, they can avoid legal hits and while runing into defenders can position themselves to minimize hits compared to standing in the pocket and repeatedly getting knocked to the ground from a standing position. There's no evidence that the slippery-slope argument you presented leads to the pitiful outcome you are suggesting. Once again, through experience most QBs continue to improve as passers and even if their athletic ability begins to wane, they can compensate by relying more on their arm. But running QBs have historically had long careers --- from Tarkenton, to Cunninham, Young, and Elway, to Vick, etc... Vick was still one of the fastest guys on the Eagles late in his career. Fragility is a player thing more than a style thing. You can look at RG3 as proof for your claim, but his injury history wasn't much different than Bradford's. Two completely different styles, but examples of injury prone players. 

As for Steve Young. He didn't just come to the 49ers, stop running and wait until he had things down. He played when called upon for injuries or to close out games and he ran when he saw a running lane. The more he matured, the better he was at passing, but he still ran a lot at age 37 (his last full starting season). Young can say whatever he wants to say, but he's always been one of the most dopey player-turned analysts in the NFL realm. 

JImmy Kempski gave his general impressions of Hurts as part of a deeper dive into training camp.

25 Eagles training camp questions, answered | PhillyVoice

Here is some of what he wrote.

"He worked the middle of the field extensively, and did not seem to overly favor the right side of the field over the left side, as he so blatantly did during the 2021 regular season.

There were times early in camp that he was quick to leave the pocket and run, even on occasion in 7-on-7s, when there's no pass rush. There's no question that he can make plays with his legs and he should continue to do so in real games, but practices are for correcting deficient areas. However, as the summer wore on, he looked to win more from the pocket instead of using his running ability as a crutch.

I thought he looked more decisive and quicker getting the ball out in practices than he has been in the past."

While he doesn't expect a huge jump, a la Wentz in 2017, the expectation is that Hurts should be better.

It's hard to find anyone who thinks he will be worse this year, which is pretty good news.

 

 

1 hour ago, brkmsn said:

In case you forgot, Hurts didn't start the first 12 games of his rookie year (very similar to McNabb). In fact both McNabb and Hurts were given limited snaps in each game leading up to their starting moments. Both QBs relied heavily on their running skills early in their careers. Both QBs accounted for around 85% of their team's offense in their first full starting season (2nd year). One big difference between McNabb's era and Hurts' era is that there wasn't as many talented, successful QBs across the NFL. That led to McNabb actually being a Pro Bowler beginning his 2nd season compared to Hurts being an alternate. McNabb was tasked with learning the WCO. Reid had to dumb that down for years while McNabb got comfortable in it. McNabb's all time leading receiving position group is RB because Reid turned him into a check-down machine. Another big difference between McNabb's offense and Hurts' is the use of read option and RPO. Those haven't historically been popular builds in the modern NFL, but as we all know, times change. The RPO was a huge reason we had success in 2017 with Foles, so before you discount the style, be reminded that it can work at this level. 

Running more does not necessarily leave the QB vulnerable to hits. There's a valid argument that by running out of bounds and sliding, they can avoid legal hits and while runing into defenders can position themselves to minimize hits compared to standing in the pocket and repeatedly getting knocked to the ground from a standing position. There's no evidence that the slippery-slope argument you presented leads to the pitiful outcome you are suggesting. Once again, through experience most QBs continue to improve as passers and even if their athletic ability begins to wane, they can compensate by relying more on their arm. But running QBs have historically had long careers --- from Tarkenton, to Cunninham, Young, and Elway, to Vick, etc... Vick was still one of the fastest guys on the Eagles late in his career. Fragility is a player thing more than a style thing. You can look at RG3 as proof for your claim, but his injury history wasn't much different than Bradford's. Two completely different styles, but examples of injury prone players. 

As for Steve Young. He didn't just come to the 49ers, stop running and wait until he had things down. He played when called upon for injuries or to close out games and he ran when he saw a running lane. The more he matured, the better he was at passing, but he still ran a lot at age 37 (his last full starting season). Young can say whatever he wants to say, but he's always been one of the most dopey player-turned analysts in the NFL realm. 

So much wrong in here. 

We're only gonna win games if the D can stop the other team.

Can Hurts play safety?

Just now, CouchKing said:

We're only gonna win games if the D can stop the other team.

Can Hurts play safety?

He's probably a better safety than he is a QB. 

On 8/28/2022 at 7:36 AM, Iggles_Phan said:

Steve lost as a running QB, and was traded to the 49ers, where they taught him how to be a pocket passer, who could escape the pocket and make plays when the designed play broke down... not a guy who broke the play because he was uncomfortable sitting in the pocket.

Young also said it took him 3 full years in SF to really understand the offense and that was after a few years in the NFL. Typically pros coming from one offense to another have a relatively short learning curve because the biggest difference after strategy/philosophy is language - terminology. Walsh's WCO was much more complicated at that time. I know Sirianni isn't running the WCO (though just about every team has incorporated aspects) but I think all NFL playbooks have become just as complex. 

2018 Hurts Alabama

2019 Hurts Oklahoma

2020 Hurts Philadelphia DP

2021 Hurts Philadelphia NS

4 offenses in 4 years. 4 different coaching staffs and I think we can ALL agree Hurts wasn't a polished passer coming into the NFL. This is also why some supporters of Hurts give him a mulligan for 2020 and refer to his second season as his true rookie season. All jokes aside - It might be (probably is) flawed logic but it's not totally without merit.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Nivraga said:

Young also said it took him 3 full years in SF to really understand the offense and that was after a few years in the NFL. Typically pros coming from one offense to another have a relatively short learning curve because the biggest difference after strategy/philosophy is language - terminology. Walsh's WCO was much more complicated at that time. I know Sirianni isn't running the WCO (though just about every team has incorporated aspects) but I think all NFL playbooks have become just as complex. 

2018 Hurts Alabama

2019 Hurts Oklahoma

2020 Hurts Philadelphia DP

2021 Hurts Philadelphia NS

4 offenses in 4 years. 4 different coaching staffs and I think we can ALL agree Hurts wasn't a polished passer coming into the NFL. This is also why some supporters of Hurts give him a mulligan for 2020 and refer to his second season as his true rookie season. All jokes aside - It might be (probably is) flawed logic but it's not totally without merit.

 

 

The reason the rookie thing is laughed at is because it's more than just on the field stuff. 

Rookies are drafted end of April, have to uproot their entire lives to move to a new city and state (which can vary wildly from where they grew up), have to learn an entire playbook and new teammates all in a few months. It's why so many are overwhelmed their first year. 

But, Hurts got a full offseason. He knew his teammates. He was named the unquestioned starter going into his 2nd year. He had a new playbook sure, but he would've been given that in February instead of May. It's not the same, and it's a ridiculous point to raise. 

The biggest issues with Hurts is that the stuff that was identified as being weaknesses, he hasn't worked on. The same negatives said about him coming out of college, is stuff he hasn't touched. And, it's stuff he should have been doing since high school.

Then, you see what a coach like Vrabel does in Tennessee, where he benches Willis after Willis makes a great run, because Vrabel wanted him to work on passing. That's what should happen here. But it didn't. 

2 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

The reason the rookie thing is laughed at is because it's more than just on the field stuff. 

Rookies are drafted end of April, have to uproot their entire lives to move to a new city and state (which can vary wildly from where they grew up), have to learn an entire playbook and new teammates all in a few months. It's why so many are overwhelmed their first year. 

But, Hurts got a full offseason. He knew his teammates. He was named the unquestioned starter going into his 2nd year. He had a new playbook sure, but he would've been given that in February instead of May. It's not the same, and it's a ridiculous point to raise. 

The biggest issues with Hurts is that the stuff that was identified as being weaknesses, he hasn't worked on. The same negatives said about him coming out of college, is stuff he hasn't touched. And, it's stuff he should have been doing since high school.

Then, you see what a coach like Vrabel does in Tennessee, where he benches Willis after Willis makes a great run, because Vrabel wanted him to work on passing. That's what should happen here. But it didn't. 

I'm not one that is giving him a mulligan for 2020. All of your points are valid but my assertion stands - it's (probably) flawed logic but it's not totally without merit.

Just now, Nivraga said:

I'm not one that is giving him a mulligan for 2020. All of your points are valid but my assertion stands - it's (probably) flawed logic but it's not totally without merit.

It is without merit. It's a BS argument used that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. 

4 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

The reason the rookie thing is laughed at is because it's more than just on the field stuff. 

Rookies are drafted end of April, have to uproot their entire lives to move to a new city and state (which can vary wildly from where they grew up), have to learn an entire playbook and new teammates all in a few months. It's why so many are overwhelmed their first year. 

But, Hurts got a full offseason. He knew his teammates. He was named the unquestioned starter going into his 2nd year. He had a new playbook sure, but he would've been given that in February instead of May. It's not the same, and it's a ridiculous point to raise. 

The biggest issues with Hurts is that the stuff that was identified as being weaknesses, he hasn't worked on. The same negatives said about him coming out of college, is stuff he hasn't touched. And, it's stuff he should have been doing since high school.

Then, you see what a coach like Vrabel does in Tennessee, where he benches Willis after Willis makes a great run, because Vrabel wanted him to work on passing. That's what should happen here. But it didn't. 

It's like you're purposely dense.  You can somehow accept that QB's often need 2 or more seasons to fully acclimate to adjusting the NFL, yet state that Hurts had all the time he needed to perfect his game.  This is why I just don't take anything you and the other trolls seriously 😂

Just now, TorontoEagle said:

It is without merit. It's a BS argument used that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. 

says you. I disagree. I get the jokes - and they're funny. But the debate isn't worth the time being spent on it. Hurts isn't the first player to be given a mulligan on his rookie season based on similar circumstances and I'm sure he won't be the last. It's flawed logic for the reasons you mentioned and probably a few others. But from a pure XsOs perspective - it has a lot of merit. 

2 minutes ago, MF POON said:

It's like you're purposely dense.  You can somehow accept that QB's often need 2 or more seasons to fully acclimate to adjusting the NFL, yet state that Hurts had all the time he needed to perfect his game.  This is why I just don't take anything you and the other trolls seriously 😂

Obtuse

2 minutes ago, Nivraga said:

says you. I disagree. I get the jokes - and they're funny. But the debate isn't worth the time being spent on it. Hurts isn't the first player to be given a mulligan on his rookie season based on similar circumstances and I'm sure he won't be the last. It's flawed logic for the reasons you mentioned and probably a few others. But from a pure XsOs perspective - it has a lot of merit. 

Obtuse

He was given a mulligan for his ROOKIE season. He's not being given a mulligan for being the same guy in his 3rd year. 

5 minutes ago, Nivraga said:

I'm not one that is giving him a mulligan for 2020. All of your points are valid but my assertion stands - it's (probably) flawed logic but it's not totally without merit.

He was a rookie and played like one for 3 1/2 games in 2020. It's not about giving a mulligan, so much as understanding that rookies often don't play well, and they especially don't when a team sucks (we were awful that season).  

Just now, TorontoEagle said:

He was given a mulligan for his ROOKIE season. He's not being given a mulligan for being the same guy in his 3rd year. 

No one expects him to be the same guy in his 3rd year. Is anyone calling him still a rookie going into this season. If so - I'll say it - they're idiots.

1 minute ago, TorontoEagle said:

He was given a mulligan for his ROOKIE season. He's not being given a mulligan for being the same guy in his 3rd year. 

The 3rd year hasn't taken place yet lol. see my previous reply 🤣

1 minute ago, Nivraga said:

No one expects him to be the same guy in his 3rd year. Is anyone calling him still a rookie going into this season. If so - I'll say it - they're idiots.

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/jalen-hurts/32004855-5276-7022-85cf-a74490936f42

Weaknesses

• Has issues sustaining rhythm as passer with so many off-schedule throws
• Inconsistent patience allowing routes to develop
• Slow recognition of early throw opportunities
• Leaves slants and crossers behind targets
• Misses checkdowns and opts for harder throws
• Deep arm dip into elongated release
• Forced speedsters at OU and Alabama to slow for deep throws
• Needs to get better at trusting his pocket
• Quick to drop his eyes when pressure mounts
• More likely to void pocket than climb, scan and throw from it

 

From what we've seen since he entered the league....what of these things has he improved upon? 

Just now, TorontoEagle said:

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/jalen-hurts/32004855-5276-7022-85cf-a74490936f42

Weaknesses

• Has issues sustaining rhythm as passer with so many off-schedule throws
• Inconsistent patience allowing routes to develop
• Slow recognition of early throw opportunities
• Leaves slants and crossers behind targets
• Misses checkdowns and opts for harder throws
• Deep arm dip into elongated release
• Forced speedsters at OU and Alabama to slow for deep throws
• Needs to get better at trusting his pocket
• Quick to drop his eyes when pressure mounts
• More likely to void pocket than climb, scan and throw from it

 

From what we've seen since he entered the league....what of these things has he improved upon? 

I will answer that when you learn to count to 3. 

1 minute ago, Nivraga said:

I will answer that when you learn to count to 3. 

Is this not his 3rd season???

1 minute ago, TorontoEagle said:

Is this not his 3rd season???

It's his second season 😁

Just now, TorontoEagle said:

Is this not his 3rd season???

This will be. We won't know if he's the same guy or not until the games are played. 

4 minutes ago, Nivraga said:

This will be. We won't know if he's the same guy or not until the games are played. 

Right, so instead of answer my question, you dance around with semantics. And I'm the obtuse one 🙄

55 minutes ago, MF POON said:

It's his second season 😁

So you can't count?

Year 1 -  3 1/2 games

Year 2 - 15 games

Year 3 - you are here now