2 hours ago, Nivraga said:

Young also said it took him 3 full years in SF to really understand the offense and that was after a few years in the NFL. Typically pros coming from one offense to another have a relatively short learning curve because the biggest difference after strategy/philosophy is language - terminology. Walsh's WCO was much more complicated at that time. I know Sirianni isn't running the WCO (though just about every team has incorporated aspects) but I think all NFL playbooks have become just as complex. 

2018 Hurts Alabama

2019 Hurts Oklahoma

2020 Hurts Philadelphia DP

2021 Hurts Philadelphia NS

4 offenses in 4 years. 4 different coaching staffs and I think we can ALL agree Hurts wasn't a polished passer coming into the NFL. This is also why some supporters of Hurts give him a mulligan for 2020 and refer to his second season as his true rookie season. All jokes aside - It might be (probably is) flawed logic but it's not totally without merit.

 

 

Chicken vs. egg.  If Hurts were a better QB, he wouldn't have found himself in 4 offenses in 4 years.

2 hours ago, Nivraga said:

2018 Hurts Alabama

2019 Hurts Oklahoma

Maybe he should have beaten out Tua and stayed in the same offense.

1 hour ago, Shalodeep said:

So you can't count?

Year 1 -  3 1/2 games

Year 2 - 15 games

Year 3 - you are here now 

It's his first season in an Eagles uniform. Not sure what you're talking about

34 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Chicken vs. egg.  If Hurts were a better QB, he wouldn't have found himself in 4 offenses in 4 years.

Tell that to Trevor Lawrence lol

6 hours ago, brkmsn said:

In case you forgot, Hurts didn't start the first 12 games of his rookie year (very similar to McNabb). In fact both McNabb and Hurts were given limited snaps in each game leading up to their starting moments. Both QBs relied heavily on their running skills early in their careers. Both QBs accounted for around 85% of their team's offense in their first full starting season (2nd year). One big difference between McNabb's era and Hurts' era is that there wasn't as many talented, successful QBs across the NFL. That led to McNabb actually being a Pro Bowler beginning his 2nd season compared to Hurts being an alternate. McNabb was tasked with learning the WCO. Reid had to dumb that down for years while McNabb got comfortable in it. McNabb's all time leading receiving position group is RB because Reid turned him into a check-down machine. Another big difference between McNabb's offense and Hurts' is the use of read option and RPO. Those haven't historically been popular builds in the modern NFL, but as we all know, times change. The RPO was a huge reason we had success in 2017 with Foles, so before you discount the style, be reminded that it can work at this level. 

Running more does not necessarily leave the QB vulnerable to hits. There's a valid argument that by running out of bounds and sliding, they can avoid legal hits and while runing into defenders can position themselves to minimize hits compared to standing in the pocket and repeatedly getting knocked to the ground from a standing position. There's no evidence that the slippery-slope argument you presented leads to the pitiful outcome you are suggesting. Once again, through experience most QBs continue to improve as passers and even if their athletic ability begins to wane, they can compensate by relying more on their arm. But running QBs have historically had long careers --- from Tarkenton, to Cunninham, Young, and Elway, to Vick, etc... Vick was still one of the fastest guys on the Eagles late in his career. Fragility is a player thing more than a style thing. You can look at RG3 as proof for your claim, but his injury history wasn't much different than Bradford's. Two completely different styles, but examples of injury prone players. 

As for Steve Young. He didn't just come to the 49ers, stop running and wait until he had things down. He played when called upon for injuries or to close out games and he ran when he saw a running lane. The more he matured, the better he was at passing, but he still ran a lot at age 37 (his last full starting season). Young can say whatever he wants to say, but he's always been one of the most dopey player-turned analysts in the NFL realm. 

Yup.  He didn't start, because he was being used as a gadget player.  That's totally different from what happened with McNabb and Mahomes.   McNabb wasn't used as a gadget guy, though he was given spot duty here and there.

Reid turned him into a check down machine, because our WR group was absolutely atrocious.  (Sorry Charles Johnson, RIP.)  Then they got T.O. and had Pinkston and they opened up the offense and McNabb was throwing bombs.  They would start games with deep shots quite a bit, actually.   Then they drafted Desean and they were still throwing the ball deep a great deal compared to other teams around the league.   But, even so, McNabb loved having a RB like Westbrook to dump it off to, or a TE like Chad Lewis, or even Brent Celek towards the end.   As McNabb got older, he progressed as a passer because Reid kept adding more things for him to do and always harped on him running less.  And McNabb himself used to bristle at the label of being a running QB.

 

BTW, even today with the changes to the league, Reid still doesn't use Mahomes for read-options.  And, I would remind you that mobility has nothing to do with a QB's ability to properly execute an RPO.  It is about quick decision making, and a quick release to get the ball out before the defense can react to the pull from the RB's belly.  Hurts was terrible at the RPO early last year, so much so that they basically removed them from the offense because he couldn't be trusted to get the ball out on time... leading to illegal men downfield calls.   So, I have no issue with the RPO... because it isn't about the QB running, its about the QB reading the defense and throwing the ball.

 

And running more absolutely does necessarily leave the QB vulnerable to more hits.  The evidence I am pointing to is how quickly "running" QBs flame out in the NFL.  It really isn't hard to find evidence for that if you are willing to see it.  RG3's injury happened when he was running around and his knee bent the wrong direction and never properly healed.  So, I don't see that evidence helping your argument at all.

 

Yes, Young took a while to learn it, and did get some spot duty.   But, did you see his completion percentage jump when he made the transition?  It was in the mid-50s, and immediately jumped up to the 60s with the Niners.  He did still run at times, but far less frequently than he had in Tampa AND... he never ran the ball as part of a play design.  That just wasn't a part of the 49ers offense, unlike here.  Young ran when he saw a lane and the first reads weren't there.  There's a huge difference.  Young learned how to play the QB position PASSING the ball.  And when he did, he became the best QB in the league at the time.  Like I said, he led the league in passer rating 5 out of 6 seasons... and was the first ever to have a rating over 100 for the season, IIRC.

 

4 hours ago, Nivraga said:

Young also said it took him 3 full years in SF to really understand the offense and that was after a few years in the NFL. Typically pros coming from one offense to another have a relatively short learning curve because the biggest difference after strategy/philosophy is language - terminology. Walsh's WCO was much more complicated at that time. I know Sirianni isn't running the WCO (though just about every team has incorporated aspects) but I think all NFL playbooks have become just as complex. 

2018 Hurts Alabama

2019 Hurts Oklahoma

2020 Hurts Philadelphia DP

2021 Hurts Philadelphia NS

4 offenses in 4 years. 4 different coaching staffs and I think we can ALL agree Hurts wasn't a polished passer coming into the NFL. This is also why some supporters of Hurts give him a mulligan for 2020 and refer to his second season as his true rookie season. All jokes aside - It might be (probably is) flawed logic but it's not totally without merit.

Yep.  It took Young a while, and he was working on his passing game almost exclusively during that time.  And the coaching staff in SF was adamant about Young learning the WCO and becoming proficient at PASSING.  This coaching staff isn't doing that with Hurts.  They are going with the short term fix and forgoing the long term growth.  

 

Yep, I've heard all about the number of different offenses, etc.   I also heard that Josh Allen had a huge leg up on every QB that ever entered the NFL, because he played at Wyoming and their pro-style offense.  Of course, if that were to hold any merit, Allen wouldn't be the only QB to ever be drafted from Wyoming.  Meanwhile, Hurts is one of 3 Alabama QBs and 3 Oklahoma QBs to be drafted in the NFL in the last 5 years... and he's the only one that's not a first round pick.  🤔.   Might be a reason for that.   Maybe his limitations are the issue.  But... again, he's known his current QB coach for his entire life and yet, he's still not a polished QB.  

On 8/26/2022 at 9:31 PM, SkippyX said:

I call BS. The only thing a QB can't do is get taller. They can build arm strength (max it out a bit anyway) They can get faster with training. They can work on footwork and mechanics.

They can be taught how to anticipate timing routes to plan for better accuracy. They can master a system so they know where everyone should be. They can build rapport with their targets so they make the same site read. Much of that can improve their accuracy.

Drew Brees was a 61% passer at Perdue.

He was a 59.4% passer after 3 years in SD.

He was a 72.1% passer for his last 5 seasons in New Orleans.

He's #1 all-time for completion %

 

No one knows how much a guy like Jalen who ran all over the place was just throwing to big windows with elite overmatching talent at 'Bama and Oklahoma.

Saban and Riley's jobs were to win college games, not give their QBs a Masters degree in passing accuracy.

There's always a limit though. Otherwise everyone is as fast as Hill, can throw it like Marino, and can have footwork like I don't know know...Peyton

So wouldn't it be possible that Hurts is either at or near his ceiling?

1 hour ago, MF POON said:

It's his first season in an Eagles uniform. Not sure what you're talking about

Tell that to Trevor Lawrence lol

Was Trevor Lawrence beaten out by another QB at Clemson and have to transfer? 

2 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Was Trevor Lawrence beaten out by another QB at Clemson and have to transfer? 

"If Hurts were a better QB, he wouldn't have found himself in 4 offenses in 4 years."

If Trevor Lawrence was a better QB, he wouldn't have found himself in his 3rd different offense in as many years.  hopefully you see how dumb the original point was, lol

18 minutes ago, MF POON said:

"If Hurts were a better QB, he wouldn't have found himself in 4 offenses in 4 years."

If Trevor Lawrence was a better QB, he wouldn't have found himself in his 3rd different offense in as many years.  hopefully you see how dumb the original point was, lol

Uh... no.   If Hurts were a better QB, he wouldn't have been beaten out by Tua and he could have stayed at Alabama.  

Lawrence had the same coach throughout college.  Then almost all players get a new coach when they move to the NFL, because very few college coaches move directly to NFL HC.  And he was drafted by Jacksonville who had a coach that had no clue what he was doing in the NFL.   

 

Hopefully you see how bad a comparison you made.   If not, that's on you.   I don't think anyone expected that Urban Meyer was going to last in the NFL.  He flamed out quicker than many expected, but do to him, not his QB.  Apples vs. oranges.

1 minute ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Uh... no.   If Hurts were a better QB, he wouldn't have been beaten out by Tua and he could have stayed at Alabama.  

Lawrence had the same coach throughout college.  Then almost all players get a new coach when they move to the NFL, because very few college coaches move directly to NFL HC.  And he was drafted by Jacksonville who had a coach that had no clue what he was doing in the NFL.   

 

Hopefully you see how bad a comparison you made.   If not, that's on you.   I don't think anyone expected that Urban Meyer was going to last in the NFL.  He flamed out quicker than many expected, but do to him, not his QB.  Apples vs. oranges.

🥱

3 hours ago, MF POON said:

It's his first season in an Eagles uniform. Not sure what you're talking about

Tell that to Trevor Lawrence lol

They were discussing hurts... It's his third season. I posted the games he started. 

Lawrence >>>>Hurts in case you were wondering

Just now, Shalodeep said:

They were discussing hurts... It's his third season. I posted the games he started. 

Lawrence >>>>Hurts in case you were wondering

Man I'm just trolling on how many seasons Hurts has played.

48 minutes ago, MF POON said:

Man I'm just trolling on how many seasons Hurts has played.

We are all in that weird dead spot until week 1 lol  

4 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Yup.  He didn't start, because he was being used as a gadget player.  That's totally different from what happened with McNabb and Mahomes.   McNabb wasn't used as a gadget guy, though he was given spot duty here and there.

That was just a way to get his feet wet as a rookie while we had Wentz. It's not really any different than what Buddy Ryan did with Cunningham when we had Jaworski. With McNabb, Reid would give him a series instead of just 1 play, but it was  a simplified playbook. Reid didn't employ any gadgetry at that time. 

4 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Reid turned him into a check down machine, because our WR group was absolutely atrocious.  (Sorry Charles Johnson, RIP.)  Then they got T.O. and had Pinkston and they opened up the offense and McNabb was throwing bombs.  They would start games with deep shots quite a bit, actually.   Then they drafted Desean and they were still throwing the ball deep a great deal compared to other teams around the league.   But, even so, McNabb loved having a RB like Westbrook to dump it off to, or a TE like Chad Lewis, or even Brent Celek towards the end.   As McNabb got older, he progressed as a passer because Reid kept adding more things for him to do and always harped on him running less.  And McNabb himself used to bristle at the label of being a running QB.

I agree with a lot of this, but part of the issue with the WRs was McNabb. You saw it when Feeley came in during McNabb's injury. McNabb didn't have any outstanding WRs until Owens, but McNabb didn't like the risk of a 50/50 ball. So even when a defender had their back to him, he didn't like the prospect of 'risking" a turnover and went immediately to a check down. I was a big McNabb fan, but always wished he would take a few more chances with that arm of his. If the receiver doesn't make the play, that's on the receiver, but if he doesn't give them the opportunity, it's on him. 

4 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

BTW, even today with the changes to the league, Reid still doesn't use Mahomes for read-options.  And, I would remind you that mobility has nothing to do with a QB's ability to properly execute an RPO.  It is about quick decision making, and a quick release to get the ball out before the defense can react to the pull from the RB's belly.  Hurts was terrible at the RPO early last year, so much so that they basically removed them from the offense because he couldn't be trusted to get the ball out on time... leading to illegal men downfield calls.   So, I have no issue with the RPO... because it isn't about the QB running, its about the QB reading the defense and throwing the ball.

Reid is a WCO purist. Also, I don't know if Mahomes likes read-option plays at all. Sometimes it just depends on the guy you have, but Reid didn't do it with McNabb either so I think it's mostly just a coaching preference. 

4 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

And running more absolutely does necessarily leave the QB vulnerable to more hits.  The evidence I am pointing to is how quickly "running" QBs flame out in the NFL.  It really isn't hard to find evidence for that if you are willing to see it.  RG3's injury happened when he was running around and his knee bent the wrong direction and never properly healed.  So, I don't see that evidence helping your argument at all.

Theismann, Alex Smith, Cunningham are a few of the many examples of QBs having their season(s) ended from a hit in the pocket. 

RG3's injury vs Seattle:

 

5 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Yes, Young took a while to learn it, and did get some spot duty.   But, did you see his completion percentage jump when he made the transition?  It was in the mid-50s, and immediately jumped up to the 60s with the Niners.  He did still run at times, but far less frequently than he had in Tampa AND... he never ran the ball as part of a play design.  That just wasn't a part of the 49ers offense, unlike here.  Young ran when he saw a lane and the first reads weren't there.  There's a huge difference.  Young learned how to play the QB position PASSING the ball.  And when he did, he became the best QB in the league at the time.  Like I said, he led the league in passer rating 5 out of 6 seasons... and was the first ever to have a rating over 100 for the season, IIRC.

Young absolutely did run QB draws, bootlegs  and, obviously, sneaks which are designed QB runs. They didn't do what we did with Hurts last season and use him as a read-option QB, but they absolutely took advantage of his running at times with specific plays designed for that. 

 

Anyway, had Wentz' play not regressed in 2020, Hurts could have had several seasons to watch, learn and grow as a backup behind a franchise QB. But since we all know what happened, Hurts became the starter and he'll have to learn while being the starter, like many young QBs. That's the whole point. Using Pro-football-reference's adjusted passing  measurement (remembering that 100 points = average and higher is better), you can see that Hurts improved last year  from below average in all categories (2020). He still needs to continue to improve. 

Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	QBrec	Att	Y/A+	NY/A+	AY/A+	ANY/A+	Cmp%+	TD%+	Int%+	Sack%+	Rate+
2020	22	PHI	qb	2	15	4	1-3-0	148	99	98	96	95	46	95	92	85	81
2021	23	PHI	QB	1	15	15	8-7-0	432	102	104	100	101	83	91	104	103	93

 

The video below is the one that I believe led to the weakness in his knee that led to all the trouble with it he ended up with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrHZ-yqBI4c

@brkmsn

 

Just now, Iggles_Phan said:

 

The video below is the one that I believe led to the weakness in his knee that led to all the trouble with it he ended up with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrHZ-yqBI4c

@brkmsn

 

I believe it was related too which is why he was playing with a brace, but it was still just a fluke play that did it in all the way. McNabb also tore his knee up running to the sideline without contact.

 

6 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

I believe it was related too which is why he was playing with a brace, but it was still just a fluke play that did it in all the way. McNabb also tore his knee up running to the sideline without contact.

 

Yup.  Extra punishment will do that.

27 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Yup.  Extra punishment will do that.

So will this:

 

19.9

23 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

So will this:

 

I think it's understood that injuries are a part of the game, but that the QB in the pocket has far more protection than outside the pocket.  Injuries happen everywhere.  What I don't want is a QB who is put in harms way as a regular part of the offensive game plan.  Every time the QB leaves the pocket, he becomes more vulnerable.  Sure, he can slide... but I showed a video where RGIII was sliding and got concussed.  No flag.  Just this preseason, a QB slid (Fields, I believe) and was hit in the head while sliding... no flag.  Hurts was running out of bounds and was still hit late.  Yes, there was a flag, and yet, that's small consolation if he'd been knocked out.

1 minute ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I think it's understood that injuries are a part of the game, but that the QB in the pocket has far more protection than outside the pocket.  Injuries happen everywhere.  What I don't want is a QB who is put in harms way as a regular part of the offensive game plan.  Every time the QB leaves the pocket, he becomes more vulnerable.  Sure, he can slide... but I showed a video where RGIII was sliding and got concussed.  No flag.  Just this preseason, a QB slid (Fields, I believe) and was hit in the head while sliding... no flag.  Hurts was running out of bounds and was still hit late.  Yes, there was a flag, and yet, that's small consolation if he'd been knocked out.

The problem with the pocket area of the field is you have a lot of guys losing balance, diving, spinning, rolling, getting pushed, and that's where you see the most major leg injuries happen. It's not just QBs, but linemen as well. It's not a safe area despite what it should be. Questionable hits happen in the pocket as often as outside the pocket. Even with all the rules designed to protect QBs, they are still a giant target to an aggressive defensive player looking for a sack. Anyway, the whole argument that running makes a QB more vulnerable and prone to a shorter career is just a slippery slope. Some RBs carry the ball over twice as much as Hurts did last year per game and have had long careers as well. Some RBs get injured a lot (Mostert) and some have been very durable (E. Smith, Payton, Gore). So either some guys are more durable than others or they are better at avoiding and absorbing hits. 

9 hours ago, brkmsn said:

The problem with the pocket area of the field is you have a lot of guys losing balance, diving, spinning, rolling, getting pushed, and that's where you see the most major leg injuries happen. It's not just QBs, but linemen as well. It's not a safe area despite what it should be. Questionable hits happen in the pocket as often as outside the pocket. Even with all the rules designed to protect QBs, they are still a giant target to an aggressive defensive player looking for a sack. Anyway, the whole argument that running makes a QB more vulnerable and prone to a shorter career is just a slippery slope. Some RBs carry the ball over twice as much as Hurts did last year per game and have had long careers as well. Some RBs get injured a lot (Mostert) and some have been very durable (E. Smith, Payton, Gore). So either some guys are more durable than others or they are better at avoiding and absorbing hits. 

Nope.  That's not true.  Very very few RBs have 'long careers'.   Most flame out in 5 or so years, even the Pro Bowl/All-Pro level RBs.

 

The whole argument that running makes a QB more vulnerable is 100% evidentially based.  There isn't an 'old' QB who has ever played with that style.  Your best hope would be Steve Young, who had a total of 772 rushes in his career.   Hurts already has over 200 in just 19 starts.   Hurts doubles Young's rushing attempts per game over his career.  Even in his first two years, Young only averaged 6 rushes per game.  

 

But, if you can find an example of a QB who had a long career as a running QB, I'd love to hear about them.

48 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Nope.  That's not true.  Very very few RBs have 'long careers'.   Most flame out in 5 or so years, even the Pro Bowl/All-Pro level RBs.

 

The whole argument that running makes a QB more vulnerable is 100% evidentially based.  There isn't an 'old' QB who has ever played with that style.  Your best hope would be Steve Young, who had a total of 772 rushes in his career.   Hurts already has over 200 in just 19 starts.   Hurts doubles Young's rushing attempts per game over his career.  Even in his first two years, Young only averaged 6 rushes per game.  

 

But, if you can find an example of a QB who had a long career as a running QB, I'd love to hear about them.

Cunningham played until he was 38 (16 seasons), had 775 career rushes and was sacked 484 times. Fran Tarkenton played 18 season until he was 38 and had 675 career rushes and was sacked 485 times (since they began tracking sacks). John Elway played 16 seasons until he was 38, had 774 career rushes, and was sacked 516 times. You already mentioned Young who had 135 additional rushes during his 2 seasons in the USFL. All 4 of the guys mentioned so far played in an era were there was less protections put in place for QBs and players in general. Vick played 13 seasons (15 year span - 2 prison years) and had 873 rushes. 

As far as RBs, I already listed some examples of big workload RBs that had long careers. The difference between today and the past is that teams no longer value RBs as much as before and simply don't invest in RBs very often after their rookie contracts. So many fade away into obscurity as it's more cost-effective to replace them with a guy on a rookie contract. It's not so much durability as it is cap hit vs production. 

1 hour ago, brkmsn said:

Cunningham played until he was 38 (16 seasons), had 775 career rushes and was sacked 484 times. Fran Tarkenton played 18 season until he was 38 and had 675 career rushes and was sacked 485 times (since they began tracking sacks). John Elway played 16 seasons until he was 38, had 774 career rushes, and was sacked 516 times. You already mentioned Young who had 135 additional rushes during his 2 seasons in the USFL. All 4 of the guys mentioned so far played in an era were there was less protections put in place for QBs and players in general. Vick played 13 seasons (15 year span - 2 prison years) and had 873 rushes. 

As far as RBs, I already listed some examples of big workload RBs that had long careers. The difference between today and the past is that teams no longer value RBs as much as before and simply don't invest in RBs very often after their rookie contracts. So many fade away into obscurity as it's more cost-effective to replace them with a guy on a rookie contract. It's not so much durability as it is cap hit vs production. 

Check their rushes per game... and look at the fact that Hurts is DOUBLE that value.  And NONE of the names you mentioned had designed runs as part of the week to week gameplan like the Eagles do with Hurts... not counting Buddy Ryan's ridiculous plan of 'Randall will make 3 big plays a game'.  

And there's a difference between running QB and a scrambler.  Tarkenton was the league's all-time leading passer for a generation.  And Cunningham's game changed dramatically from 1995 on as they tried to make him a passer, not an athlete.  Vick was rebuilt here with Reid after prison and his game changed a lot too, with the exception of the Chip error.

You are still comparing apples to oranges.  Hurts had 139 rushes last year alone.  That means he'll top out all these other players in rush attempts by year 6.  HALF the number or less than half of all the guys you mentioned.   Of those you mention, only Vick ever topped 100 rushes in a season.  And what did we see from Vick... limited success, because he just wasn't a passer.  And even he didn't average 10 rushes per game.

 

And yes, you found some RBs that had big workloads.  You pretty much cherry picked Hall of Fame RBs.  The difference between today and the past is that teams don't put money into running backs because of the salary cap and the recognition that they just can't match the value of their contract when they hit their 2nd contract.  A RB today has about a 4 year shelf life, then bounces around as a journeyman.  Even back in the day, Gale Sayers, Earl Campbell and others had about 4 years of effectiveness before they fizzled out.  That's how RB works in the NFL.  But the reason that the teams don't put money into them, is because their production drops off dramatically, due to durability.  I don't see how you can argue any other reason.

let's talk about leadership and work ethic.