5 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Not bad for a guy who started only 10 games, eh?  

It was an absolutely great stretch of games.

 

5 minutes ago, Shalodeep said:

You are missing the point where if Foles had started 15, he wouldn't of ranked as low making your argument not a good one. The pace per game put him at 3330 yards and would be around the 15th range that year. His touchdown % that year was first in a year that Manning passed for 55 touchdowns.... He was insane effective that year.  At 15 games, he would of paced out at 40 touchdowns which would of been second in the league. You picked a bad year and player to make your argument with 

It's still you that is missing the point. The point is simple: averages matter more than totals when dissecting effectiveness. You can "what if" all you want. What if Hurts attempted more passes in the second half of last season? What if Hurts didn't have 8 passing TDs nullified by penalty? What if he didn't have another not count because Sirianni didn't challenge a clear TD pass to Goedert that was ruled down just short of the goal line?

1 hour ago, brkmsn said:

It was an absolutely great stretch of games.

 

It's still you that is missing the point. The point is simple: averages matter more than totals when dissecting effectiveness. You can "what if" all you want. What if Hurts attempted more passes in the second half of last season? What if Hurts didn't have 8 passing TDs nullified by penalty? What if he didn't have another not count because Sirianni didn't challenge a clear TD pass to Goedert that was ruled down just short of the goal line?

Those 8tds being called back is because the team cheated to score....hence the call backs. We scored on a few of those drives anyway so it's not like he lost all of them. Here is one. What if he didn't call his own number in the RedZone so often? Would people be questioning miles Sanders so much?  

I used averages to get those Nick numbers btw.... So my point is still effective 

Man with all these interceptions and sacks taken tonight you would think Stafford couldn’t read defenses or something. Things sure can get bad when you got a statue quarterback out there under duress. 

2 hours ago, Shalodeep said:

Those 8tds being called back is because the team cheated to score....hence the call backs. We scored on a few of those drives anyway so it's not like he lost all of them. Here is one. What if he didn't call his own number in the RedZone so often? Would people be questioning miles Sanders so much?  

I used averages to get those Nick numbers btw.... So my point is still effective 

Now you're starting to get into my way of thinking. I have a question for you...

 

Which is more important --- That the team comes away with an offensive touchdown or that certain individual(s) get (statistical) credit for it?

7 hours ago, brkmsn said:

Now you're starting to get into my way of thinking. I have a question for you...

 

Which is more important --- That the team comes away with an offensive touchdown or that certain individual(s) get (statistical) credit for it?

Which is more important - being able to put up points against playoff caliber opponents before garbage time, or having swag?

7 hours ago, EazyEaglez said:

Man with all these interceptions and sacks taken tonight you would think Stafford couldn’t read defenses or something. Things sure can get bad when you got a statue quarterback out there under duress. 

That man looked like hot ish lol that Allen comparison should of died last night though 

9 minutes ago, Shalodeep said:

that Allen comparison should of died last night though 

Why? Allen led his team in rushes, rushing yards and rushing TDs. Being a dual threat QB, opened things up for the Bills' offense. Allen is on pace for 170 - 952 - 17 TDs rushing.

30 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Which is more important - being able to put up points against playoff caliber opponents before garbage time, or having swag?

I don't require, request, obsess or even care one iota about swag. Barry Sanders was not a great dresser and never celebrated an individual play on the field. He had no "swag" and was one of the best RBs in NFL history. What's more important to you, individual stats or team stats?

1 minute ago, brkmsn said:

I don't require, request, obsess or even care one iota about swag. Barry Sanders was not a great dresser and never celebrated an individual play on the field. He had no "swag" and was one of the best RBs in NFL history. What's more important to you, individual stats or team stats?

Beating playoff teams matters to me.  The rest is details.

1 minute ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Beating playoff teams matters to me.  The rest is details.

I take it you won't be talking about football games for 18 more weeks then ...

19 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

Why? Allen led his team in rushes, rushing yards and rushing TDs. Being a dual threat QB, opened things up for the Bills' offense. Allen is on pace for 170 - 952 - 17 TDs rushing.

If they do with him what they did with him last night, he's going to miss games due to injury.  They were reckless in their use of him, and he was a bit reckless himself in terms of how he ran.  

As for why the comparison should die... their passing is leagues apart.  And that's what this has been about the entire time.  It isn't it?  Hurts' limitations in the passing game?    Allen has no limitations passing the ball.   NONE.   Hurts has a laundry list of them.

2 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

If they do with him what they did with him last night, he's going to miss games due to injury.  They were reckless in their use of him, and he was a bit reckless himself in terms of how he ran.  

As for why the comparison should die... their passing is leagues apart.  And that's what this has been about the entire time.  It isn't it?  Hurts' limitations in the passing game?    Allen has no limitations passing the ball.   NONE.   Hurts has a laundry list of them.

I believe that's what you made it into. Others are comparing Hurts' growth as a QB to  Allen's growth. Nobody is saying their arms will be identical. Allen will always have the stronger arm, but Hurts arm is more than sufficient to be an NFL passer. 

We don't know if Allen will get hurt or not. There's no guarantee one way or the other. 

29 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

Why? Allen led his team in rushes, rushing yards and rushing TDs. Being a dual threat QB, opened things up for the Bills' offense. Allen is on pace for 170 - 952 - 17 TDs rushing.

When you watch both their films....do you see the same guy? 

Just now, brkmsn said:

I take it you won't be talking about football games for 18 more weeks then ...

 

Let me help you out.  We know that Hurts can do enough to beat up on the bad teams.  That's not the issue.  The issue isn't about how many stats he or the team can rack up against the Giants (hopefully, he doesn't crap the bed like he did against them in their first matchup again), Jets, etc.  It's about how he performs against playoff teams.  

Hurts' issue (and the team as a whole) was how he (they) was (were) completely and totally exposed against playoff teams last season.  That includes regular season games.  So, in answer to your direct question about how Hurts should be judged - individual or team stats, the answer is what he does against the teams that exposed him last year.     Does that help make it more clear what my answer meant?

 

 

2 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

I believe that's what you made it into. Others are comparing Hurts' growth as a QB to  Allen's growth. Nobody is saying their arms will be identical. Allen will always have the stronger arm, but Hurts arm is more than sufficient to be an NFL passer. 

We don't know if Allen will get hurt or not. There's no guarantee one way or the other. 

If he continues to put his body in harms way as he did last night... yeah, there's a guarantee.  He's going to get hurt.

Also Allen threw 3 touchdowns and almost 300 yards....you would bring up the rushing part of the equation and ignore the passing because you have accepted defeat there and I respect that 

2 minutes ago, Shalodeep said:

When you watch both their films....do you see the same guy? 

It depends on the film. Both players' first two seasons of film were very similar. That's what people had been comparing. Allen proved you can improve in the areas some argue that QBs don't improve in.

3 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

It depends on the film. Both players' first two seasons of film were very similar. That's what people had been comparing. Allen proved you can improve in the areas some argue that QBs don't improve in.

So there is no hope for you then 

7 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

It depends on the film. Both players' first two seasons of film were very similar. That's what people had been comparing. Allen proved you can improve in the areas some argue that QBs don't improve in.

That's not true.   The results matched.  The process didn't.  Big difference.   And that is why one went in Round 1 in the top 10, and the other was a reach in the 2nd round of the draft.  

Let's talk about this horrible second year by Allen for a second because the narrative does not fit the reality of the situation.

He won 10 games, 2 more than Jalen

He threw 20 touchdowns, 4 more than Jalen 

He threw the same 9 interceptions 

His accuracy was his problem. That was his hurdle to overcome and he das done well to do so. He also had the tools to climb over that problem.  

He is a unicorn....not a standard

25 minutes ago, Shalodeep said:

When you watch both their films....do you see the same guy? 

I swear man, it's like your reading comprehension really is lacking. That or you're purposely ignoring the point he's making. No one is saying Hurts and Josh have the same talent/skill at throwing, we're simply talking about whether Hurts can improve in the same manner.  Hurts can improve on his accuracy and timing, that's not some impossible feat. T

 

13 minutes ago, Shalodeep said:

Let's talk about this horrible second year by Allen for a second because the narrative does not fit the reality of the situation.

He won 10 games, 2 more than Jalen

He threw 20 touchdowns, 4 more than Jalen 

He threw the same 9 interceptions 

His accuracy was his problem. That was his hurdle to overcome and he das done well to do so. He also had the tools to climb over that problem.  

He is a unicorn....not a standard

Well compared to what you all criticize Hurts over, yes, it was a "horrible" second year. He ran a lot, only threw for a little over 3k in yards, had a pathetic 58% completion percentage, and could only hit 20 TDs passing. That's not impressive compared to what other QB's were doing. The only difference at that point between the two is Allen has a stronger arm. The whole "he can't read a defense" argument could easily be used in his case, but it isn't... I wonder why.

 

19 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

That's not true.   The results matched.  The process didn't.  Big difference.   And that is why one went in Round 1 in the top 10, and the other was a reach in the 2nd round of the draft.  

This is why EazyEaglez threw out the unfair comparison card, lol. We saw how Allen had almost 2 whole seasons to develop and took a leap in his 3rd to become what he is now, yet Hurts, with fewer games under his belt, and also going into his third year with a top WR simply can't improve. I know I know; race has nothing to do with it, and then some bogus excuse as to why you're overcriticizing. please spare me the details 😄

12 minutes ago, MF POON said:

This is why EazyEaglez threw out the unfair comparison card, lol. We saw how Allen had almost 2 whole seasons to develop and took a leap in his 3rd to become what he is now, yet Hurts, with fewer games under his belt, and also going into his third year with a top WR simply can't improve. I know I know; race has nothing to do with it, and then some bogus excuse as to why you're overcriticizing. please spare me the details 😄

Yeah.  I'm a racist.  Got it.  Thanks.

8 minutes ago, MF POON said:

I swear man, it's like your reading comprehension really is lacking. That or you're purposely ignoring the point he's making. No one is saying Hurts and Josh have the same talent/skill at throwing, we're simply talking about whether Hurts can improve in the same manner.  Hurts can improve on his accuracy and timing, that's not some impossible feat. T

 

Well compared to what you all criticize Hurts over, yes, it was a "horrible" second year. He ran a lot, only threw for a little over 3k in yards, had a pathetic 58% completion percentage, and could only hit 20 TDs passing. That's not impressive compared to what other QB's were doing. The only difference at that point between the two is Allen has a stronger arm. The whole "he can't read a defense" argument could easily be used in his case, but it isn't... I wonder why.

 

This is why EazyEaglez threw out the unfair comparison card, lol. We saw how Allen had almost 2 whole seasons to develop and took a leap in his 3rd to become what he is now, yet Hurts, with fewer games under his belt, and also going into his third year with a top WR simply can't improve. I know I know; race has nothing to do with it, and then some bogus excuse as to why you're overcriticizing. please spare me the details 😄

My comprehension is fine. You are expecting a unicorn type growth on an overreached second round pick. I simply state that the once in a generation growth was much easier with the physical asset difference. You can climb a mountain without all the equipment to do so, but it is much much harder. 

Jalen has to overcome bad arm mechanics, footwork, lack of anticipation, tendency to roll right, pocket awareness while not being 6"5 and having a 10/10 arm.  His has covered up a lot of this at this point with his legs and being protective of the football. That only gets you rings with elite defenses and special teams assisting. We aren't that....we need a QB, and one of those types of QBs hasn't won in this era for a reason....the league not only favors the passing game, it demands it....dilfer couldn't win now.....Nick won in the air 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Yeah.  I'm a racist.  Got it.  Thanks.

Acceptance is the first step 😉

1 minute ago, MF POON said:

Acceptance is the first step 😉

I know you are trolling, but it is ridiculous to throw race in when most have 3-4 black QBs in their top 10-15.... It's Hurts game style and film that make us dislike his game, not his damn pigment 

10 minutes ago, MF POON said:

Acceptance is the first step 😉

Nope.  Shutting down conversation by throwing around the race card is just lazy.   But it worked.  I won't be discussing Hurts in this thread any more with you.