13 minutes ago, NOTW said:

On First Watch they compared Hurts getting AJ Brown to Allen getting Diggs.  No one dismisses the growth of Allen by giving the credit to the WR or the offense in general.  

There have been great QBs over the years that had great receivers or running backs, but no one downplays their performance because of the talent they had around them.  Also people got spoiled by some QBs that had more instant success, sometimes going to teams that were built but just missing the QB.  In general, it takes a QB 3-4 years before they reach the top level of play and start winning playoff games and championships.  And now he has the team built around him to give him the opportunity and so far so good.

It’s not a new trend either. Kurt Warner had the best WR corps in football and won 2 MVPs, then he was pedestrian in NYG, then in Arizona he had the best WR corps in football and suddenly he’s great again. 

Randall Cunningham in Minnesota, Dak Prescott when they traded for Amari, Aaron Rodgers with and without Davante Adams, Matt Stafford in LA… heck, Ryan Tannehill when he went to TEN and got AJ Brown. 

I disagree with your second point though, I believe it takes 6 years for a QB to reach top level play

12 minutes ago, NOTW said:

On First Watch they compared Hurts getting AJ Brown to Allen getting Diggs.  No one dismisses the growth of Allen by giving the credit to the WR or the offense in general.  

There have been great QBs over the years that had great receivers or running backs, but no one downplays their performance because of the talent they had around them.  Also people got spoiled by some QBs that had more instant success, sometimes going to teams that were built but just missing the QB.  In general, it takes a QB 3-4 years before they reach the top level of play and start winning playoff games and championships.  And now he has the team built around him to give him the opportunity and so far so good.

 

 

No doubt the acquisition of of AJ Brown has had a similar impact.  I often pointed to that throughout the summer that Josh Allen made his big leap in his 3rd year when the Bills traded for Diggs and how getting AJ Brown can have the same impact on helping Jalen make another leap in year 3.

 

All you heard though from the usual crowd is no it's not possible for Jalen to make as big of a leap because he doesn't have a strong enough arm, which is just so irrelevant to a QBs continued development and decision making.  Jalen can't throw a ball 70 yards in the air but he can make every other throw a QB can make.  

 

You could see with the work ethic he has and the intangibles that he was going to continue to improve.  Being under the same OC for the second year in a row for the first time since high school was going to be a huge benefit.  Playing with these young players around him on offense for a second year was going to be a huge benefit. There was a lot of signs pointing to Hurts being able to take a big leap this year. 

 

But so many treated it as an absolute that he wasn't going to be able to improve.  They treated him like he was some idiot with limited intelligence. Someone in the wrong position and should just be a RB.  People who clearly had agendas against Hurts.  

16 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

QB development is more of a long-term project than any other position in any sport outside of maybe MLB pitching. Playing the position is so complicated these days, and there are so many variables due to the individual and the environment around them that leads to developmental arcs that are wildly variable. Most guys show you what they are in 3-4 years, but hell, some guys are extremely late bloomers and many continue getting better into their 30s. The game is as much physical as it is mental for them, so you have to give guys time for their brains to catch up to their bodies, and some will just never get there if they aren't given the proper supports.

Patience is a virtue, in life, but especially in QB development.

Another thing noted by Rex Ryan and I forget the former player on the panel was that Hurts decision making went to the next level this year, which was a complaint last season.  I was concerned about him missing open receivers and not going through all his reads at times which NFL analysts were showing in their breakdown videos.  

This year is different and there's a lot of chemistry with his receivers and command of the offense.  As much as people joke about it, there really is something to having the consistent coaching and scheme and becoming more comfortable in it.  We always knew he was a good leader and had great work ethic, and all the hard work is showing now.

14 minutes ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

It’s not a new trend either. Kurt Warner had the best WR corps in football and won 2 MVPs, then he was pedestrian in NYG, then in Arizona he had the best WR corps in football and suddenly he’s great again. 

Randall Cunningham in Minnesota, Dak Prescott when they traded for Amari, Aaron Rodgers with and without Davante Adams, Matt Stafford in LA… heck, Ryan Tannehill when he went to TEN and got AJ Brown. 

I disagree with your second point though, I believe it takes 6 years for a QB to reach top level play

Meh, 4 years, 6 years.  A few years ago during a TATE debate on QBs winning playoff games I reviewed most of the QBs people have accepted as great or elite and most of them hadn't won a playoff game until their 4th season so that's kind of the year I've used to say it takes 4 years.  Of course it can be different for various QBs.

What is with this place in needing your QB to succeed with absolute crap to prove they are good?

2 minutes ago, NOTW said:

Another thing noted by Rex Ryan and I forget the former player on the panel was that Hurts decision making went to the next level this year, which was a complaint last season.  I was concerned about him missing open receivers and not going through all his reads at times which NFL analysts were showing in their breakdown videos.  

This year is different and there's a lot of chemistry with his receivers and command of the offense.  As much as people joke about it, there really is something to having the consistent coaching and scheme and becoming more comfortable in it.  We always knew he was a good leader and had great work ethic, and all the hard work is showing now.

Yes, it was very obvious to me in the first few games this season that his decision-making/processing was just night and day compared to last year. He's been seeing the field and going through his progressions so much better. It's really been a sight to behold, and something no one could've predicted. Guys just usually don't make that kind of leap ever, but certainly not over the course of 9 months. Hurts might just be a unicorn.

4 minutes ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

What is with this place in needing your QB to succeed with absolute crap to prove they are good?

 

And with Wentz, one of the most common excuses for why he sucked was the lack of talent around him, lol.

1 minute ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

 

And with Wentz, one of the most common excuses for why he sucked was the lack of talent around him, lol.

So maybe Howie should have put equal talent around Wentz, maybe things would have worked out differently.

5 minutes ago, NOTW said:

Meh, 4 years, 6 years.  A few years ago during a TATE debate on QBs winning playoff games I reviewed most of the QBs people have accepted as great or elite and most of them hadn't won a playoff game until their 4th season so that's kind of the year I've used to say it takes 4 years.  Of course it can be different for various QBs.

 

A good way to look at it might be that they'll show you whether they're worth a damn after 3-4 years, but good QBs will usually continue to develop beyond that, so the great ones often don't peak until around years 6-7.

Just now, downundermike said:

So maybe Howie should have put equal talent around Wentz, maybe things would have worked out differently.

 

He probably wouldn't have been such a trainwreck, but I find it odd that this was a refrain with Wentz as a manner of downplaying how bad he was, but with Hurts, it's used to downplay how good he is, lol.

35 minutes ago, downundermike said:

So maybe Howie should have put equal talent around Wentz, maybe things would have worked out differently.

Are you being serious?

1 minute ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

Are you being serious?

Deadly.

Hurts got Smitty and AJ Brown.

Wentz got Reagor and JJAWful, Golden Tate who the coaches admitted they couldn't figure out what to do with, and D Jax who got hurt immediately.

30 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Deadly.

Hurts got Smitty and AJ Brown.

Wentz got Reagor and JJAWful, Golden Tate who the coaches admitted they couldn't figure out what to do with, and D Jax who got hurt immediately.

I wouldn’t argue against our weapons right now being better than Wentz’s, and thus his stats would have been more palatable as a result, but I don’t think that changes the way he plays the game. The fumbling, the injuries due to reckless play, forcing interceptions in the oddest of game situations, the needles sacks, the reported leadership questions with now 2 organizations…. 
 

There gets to a point where wherewithal eclipses talent. Is he truly a "broken” QB in Washington, or is he just the same Carson Wentz but without Reich and the 2017 roster? I think the worst thing that ever happened to Carson Wentz was when Nick Foles took that same roster and outshone him. If that never happened, Carson could have convinced Eagles management that they can’t win without him. That moment I believe is why they had no problem drafting Jalen, moving on to Jalen, giving Carson up after only a few years into his deal and taking the cap hit. If We didn’t sign Foles that offseason and it was Sudfeld or whoever the third dude was and we don’t win, Wentz is probably still here.

35 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Deadly.

Hurts got Smitty and AJ Brown.

Wentz got Reagor and JJAWful, Golden Tate who the coaches admitted they couldn't figure out what to do with, and D Jax who got hurt immediately.

He also got him Alshon, the BEST wr available in Free Agency, a top end burner in Torrey Smith, Blount and Ajayi when Wentz entered his second year in the league. 

All those guys fell off quickly and they tried to replace those guys later with draft picks which they failed at. But to say that Howie did not get Wentz weapons is disingenuous. 

Hurts may have better WRs now then Wentz did, but Wentz had a better offensive line and much better RBs.

3 hours ago, downundermike said:

Brian Dawkins was on the Jim Rome show last Friday, he said at the end of last year he had all the same concerns.

Do you want a prize for being right ??

Someone with skills, please design a 'prize for outstanding rightness' badge that can be awarded to people in the hope they stop arguing pointlessly

3 hours ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

QB development is more of a long-term project than any other position in any sport outside of maybe MLB pitching. Playing the position is so complicated these days, and there are so many variables due to the individual and the environment around them that leads to developmental arcs that are wildly variable. Most guys show you what they are in 3-4 years, but hell, some guys are extremely late bloomers and many continue getting better into their 30s. The game is as much physical as it is mental for them, so you have to give guys time for their brains to catch up to their bodies, and some will just never get there if they aren't given the proper supports.

Patience is a virtue, in life, but especially in QB development.

Yes, this 100 times. And yet teams still move on from young QBs put into unfavourable situations too quickly. It happens time and again, garbage team uses high pick on a QB, expects QB to work miracles, QB isn't a superman, gets benched, and so it goes. Eagles gave Jalen time to develop, and he has more to do. He has an excellent team around him, but that doesn't diminish the excellence of his performance. Example: People forget that in the famous video of the Colts coach - his name escapes me - talking about playoffs? PLAYOFFS? His QB was Peyton Manning.

A good parallel here is Trevor Lawrence, I think. He has a fairly grim team around him, but his improvement from last year to this is very visible. Aaron Rodgers started his career on the bench. Used to be QBs were drafted with long term expectations, not win now wishful thinking.

I think most reasonable fans were questioning Hurts last season, just like most reasonable fans would now say he is excelling. The two positions aren't mutually exclusive.

 

(Edited for typos, many apologies)

2 hours ago, kiwinavega said:

 

 

That coach was Jim Mora, and the comp. with Lawrence is interesting, too, because I think he's still a decent prospect, but you can feel the media and fans ready to jump on him as a "bust" more and more with each passing week, which is ridiculous with the guy only midway through his second season and playing on a bad team with a new HC.

Addendum: It's also no coincidence that when we think of great QBs we always associate them with a great WR... Montana and Rice, P Manning and Harrison, McNabb and Owens (teehee) Aikman and Irvin, Brady and Moss, Rodgers and Adams... it's almost as if it is a team game, and almost as if QBs do best when they have a legit stud to throw to

4 hours ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

Let's be real, there were a lot of true believers in Strong on this board.

Nasty Nate legend, lol.

I was greatly impressed with what limited action I saw of Carson Strong in college.  His arm looked special to me.  His head may not be, his leg may not be... but I liked his arm.   I own it.   And now he's gone, and it no longer matters.  Wentz has been gone for two seasons now.  He no longer matters.   Let's deal with the present.

3 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I was greatly impressed with what limited action I saw of Carson Strong in college.  His arm looked special to me.  His head may not be, his leg may not be... but I liked his arm.   I own it.   And now he's gone, and it no longer matters.  Wentz has been gone for two seasons now.  He no longer matters.   Let's deal with the present.

I think a lot of people and experts liked the arm on Strong. I think they saw an elite arm talent and people rightly get excited by that. So far it's not worked out and I guess it doesn't look like it will but a lot of people thought he had real potential. 

I am very impressed with Hurts so far this season. Hopefully he can keep up this high level of play that we've seen. Makes it a fun football year!!

7 hours ago, LacesOut said:

I am very impressed with Hurts so far this season. Hopefully he can keep up this high level of play that we've seen. Makes it a fun football year!!

I think one of the most impressive things this year has been his ability to exploit a defense. The last few weeks he's not run as much which shows his development as a passer. But that just means that at some point he's going to be able to go back to that when teams aren't preparing so much for him to use his legs. 

19 hours ago, pallidrone said:

He also got him Alshon, the BEST wr available in Free Agency, a top end burner in Torrey Smith, Blount and Ajayi when Wentz entered his second year in the league. 

All those guys fell off quickly and they tried to replace those guys later with draft picks which they failed at. But to say that Howie did not get Wentz weapons is disingenuous. 

Hurts may have better WRs now then Wentz did, but Wentz had a better offensive line and much better RBs.

I don't mean to interrupt a QB argument here, as I have no interest in defending Wentz ever since 2019.  But let's not call Torrey Smith a top end burner.  He sucked here.  Legitimately terrible.  Worst starter on the SB offense by a mile.

12 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

I don't mean to interrupt a QB argument here, as I have no interest in defending Wentz ever since 2019.  But let's not call Torrey Smith a top end burner.  He sucked here.  Legitimately terrible.  Worst starter on the SB offense by a mile.

Revisionist history. Defenses absolutely accounted for Smith and the threat he posed. Everything underneath was opened up. The biggest mistake Howie made was dumping Smith and his $5M / year contract for Wallace (who was injured right away, never catching a pass) and then later bringing back DJax who was injured for most of 2 seasons. The absence of a legitimate deep threat was detrimental to Wentz' QB style and we saw what happened as the offense struggled to regain 2017 magic and regressed each season. 

8 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

Revisionist history. Defenses absolutely accounted for Smith and the threat he posed. Everything underneath was opened up. The biggest mistake Howie made was dumping Smith and his $5M / year contract for Wallace (who was injured right away, never catching a pass) and then later bringing back DJax who was injured for most of 2 seasons. The absence of a legitimate deep threat was detrimental to Wentz' QB style and we saw what happened as the offense struggled to regain 2017 magic and regressed each season. 

No one feared Smith.  He barely produced anything.

Howie’s biggest career mistake was getting so sentimental after the SB win thst he tried to keep everyone.  Imagine how bad Smith was to be the one guy he went out of his way to replace immediately.

He was a deep ball wr who averaged under 12 ypc and contributed 2 TDs.

Best thing he ever did was catch a fluke ball deflected off a knee against the Falcons.

He was terrible.