On 4/21/2023 at 8:18 PM, Lloyd said:

So all these agriculture jobs they're coming into the country for are run by democrat employers seeking cheap labor? 

It is one of the few areas all parties seem to agree on: America's domestic supply chain is broken. One of the main reasons is not in dispute either: an acute shortage of workers — 5.5 million more job openings than there are workers available to fill them, according to the Labor Department.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/13/worker-shortage-supply-chain-crisis-fuel-2022-top-states-for-business.html

On 4/22/2023 at 11:12 PM, Lloyd said:

Is it "deflecting" to say that American businesses, largely in the agricultural sector, are hiring them? That's kinda the foundation of this whole thing.  "Fight for" "fight against"...that's just the two political parties tossing a ball back and forth to each other decade after decade. The central point is that they come here because businesses pay them, seeking cheap labor, and consumers want cheap products.

You trying to make it purely about the political party you dislike is the "boogeyman" part. You just wanna shut your brain off after "It's the Dems' fault!" Just give it another like...30 seconds of thought. It won't hurt, I promise. 

No, that’s not the foundation of the whole issue. The foundation is that one political party — and we all know which one — is doing everything in their power to encourage illegal immigration and then prevent illegals from getting deported once they are here. 

2 minutes ago, TEW said:

No, that’s not the foundation of the whole issue. The foundation is that one political party — and we all know which one — is doing everything in their power to encourage illegal immigration and then prevent illegals from getting deported once they are here. 

Jesus Christ. The money "encourages illegals".  Not freakin Adam Schiff or whoever haunts your nightmares. They don't know who that is. I barely know who that is.

My god...this is like religion for you isn't it? I'd have an easier time making breakthroughs with the Taliban. 

On 4/22/2023 at 11:12 PM, Lloyd said:

Is it "deflecting" to say that American businesses, largely in the agricultural sector, are hiring them? That's kinda the foundation of this whole thing.  "Fight for" "fight against"...that's just the two political parties tossing a ball back and forth to each other decade after decade. The central point is that they come here because businesses pay them, seeking cheap labor, and consumers want cheap products.

You trying to make it purely about the political party you dislike is the "boogeyman" part. You just wanna shut your brain off after "It's the Dems' fault!" Just give it another like...30 seconds of thought. It won't hurt, I promise. 

The foundation of the whole thing is that one political party actively encourages illegal immigration, protects illegal immigrants from being expelled from the nation, fights lawsuits on their behalf to keep them here, provides government identification for them once they are here, and on and on.

THAT is the foundation of the problem, and just because the political party that is doing this is the one YOU like doesn’t make it any less of the foundation of the problem.

11 hours ago, Lloyd said:

Jesus Christ. The money "encourages illegals".  Not freakin Adam Schiff or whoever haunts your nightmares. They don't know who that is. I barely know who that is.

My god...this is like religion for you isn't it? I'd have an easier time making breakthroughs with the Taliban. 

Agreed. And US based companies opening manufacturing plants in these countries with very low pay and poor working conditions also heavily contribute to illegal immigration. Average starting pay for a factory working in Mexico is equivalent to $4.90 in US dollars.

9 hours ago, TEW said:

The foundation of the whole thing is that one political party actively encourages illegal immigration, protects illegal immigrants from being expelled from the nation, fights lawsuits on their behalf to keep them here, provides government identification for them once they are here, and on and on.

THAT is the foundation of the problem, and just because the political party that is doing this is the one YOU like doesn’t make it any less of the foundation of the problem.

"Derr, but it's just the money!"

Illegals don't come here for the money, they come here to have unfettered access to Fox News so they can watch Tucker Carlson every night. Or at least they did, so maybe that problem will just kinda work itself out now.

Mexico's economy is still in the top 10% of world economies.. IIRC they're around 13th by GDP. They only appear "poorly" due to proximity with the US. 

Mexicans are few in number among those seeking asylum, most are Guatemalan or another Central American in origin. 

2 hours ago, Boogyman said:

Agreed. And US based companies opening manufacturing plants in these countries with very low pay and poor working conditions also heavily contribute to illegal immigration. Average starting pay for a factory working in Mexico is equivalent to $4.90 in US dollars.

So like 88 pesos an hour? 
 

bottle of coke is like 10-20 pesos

kind of seems like a fair price. Or do you expect them to make the same amount as US workers?

4 minutes ago, 20dawk4life said:

So like 88 pesos an hour? 
 

bottle of coke is like 10-20 pesos

kind of seems like a fair price. Or do you expect them to make the same amount as US workers?

I started factory work at 19 bucks an hour, about 26 years ago. A coke was a dollar. It's not even close. Regardless of what you or I think they should be paid, it's definitely incentive to to come here to work. That's not even considering the conditions.

President Bush. 2001 to 2009.

• Of the 40 million immigrants in the country in 2010, 13.9 million arrived in 2000 or later making it the highest decade of immigration in American history, even though there was a net loss of jobs during the decade.
• The nation’s immigrant population (legal and illegal) reached 40 million in 2010, the highest number in the nation’s history.
• The nation’s immigrant population has doubled since 1990, nearly tripled since 1980, and quadrupled since 1970, when it stood at 9.7 million.

 

 

 

• https://cis.org/Report/RecordSetting-Decade-Immigration-20002010

25 minutes ago, 20dawk4life said:

So like 88 pesos an hour? 
 

bottle of coke is like 10-20 pesos

kind of seems like a fair price. Or do you expect them to make the same amount as US workers?

Yeah, I was wondering the same.  I don't know anything about the cost of living in rural factory towns in Mexico.

My thing with TEW is, yeah I can see how Democrat rhetoric can be in support of immigrants. But rhetoric is rhetoric. His GOP does the "Grrr we hate immigrants" dance, to get votes and donations, and just invites them in through the back door as cheap labor for business owners. For how many generations have we been having this fake argument? They come here because we pay them to. Point blank. 

2 minutes ago, Lloyd said:

Yeah, I was wondering the same.  I don't know anything about the cost of living in rural factory towns in Mexico.

My thing with TEW is, yeah I can see how Democrat rhetoric can be in support of immigrants. But rhetoric is rhetoric. His GOP does the "Grrr we hate immigrants" dance, to get votes and donations, and just invites them in through the back door as cheap labor for business owners. For how many generations have we been having this fake argument? They come here because we pay them to. Point blank. 

Yeah, and he fails to acknowledge, that illegal immigration has occurred under both Dem and GOP Presidents. It's only the Dem's fault. 

1 minute ago, jsdarkstar said:

Yeah, and he fails to acknowledge, that illegal immigration has occurred under both Dem and GOP Presidents. It's only the Dem's fault. 

Exactly. Take 2016, for example.  A GOP-controlled government had enough votes to get funding for a giant symbolic wall while knowing that most illegal immigrants come in through legal points of entry, not sneaking across the desert.

These people keep getting played, and coming back with the same silly arguments. Decade after decade. 

14 minutes ago, Lloyd said:

Yeah, I was wondering the same.  I don't know anything about the cost of living in rural factory towns in Mexico.

My thing with TEW is, yeah I can see how Democrat rhetoric can be in support of immigrants. But rhetoric is rhetoric. His GOP does the "Grrr we hate immigrants" dance, to get votes and donations, and just invites them in through the back door as cheap labor for business owners. For how many generations have we been having this fake argument? They come here because we pay them to. Point blank. 

Are you really this dense???  

They come here because they know there wil be no repercussions at all, and in fact theyll be rewarded for breaking the law.

They do that because Democrats make it their platform.  

If they knew theyd be turned away or deported immediately, they wouldn't be encouraged to come here. 

This isn't hard to understand unless you're being intentionally stupid about it. 

9 minutes ago, Mike31mt said:

Are you really this dense???  

They come here because they know there wil be no repercussions at all, and in fact theyll be rewarded for breaking the law.

They do that because Democrats make it their platform.  

If they knew theyd be turned away or deported immediately, they wouldn't be encouraged to come here. 

This isn't hard to understand unless you're being intentionally stupid about it. 

And Republicans make it their platform to stop them, and hate them, and chase them out decade, after decade, ...and they're still here.  As I said in the above post, your party -with the full power of the US government- built a symbolic wall to "stop" illegal immigration while knowing that most illegal immigration happens at legal points of entry. 

To be clear, my point isn't that my "leftist" argument is stronger than your rightist argument. My point is, the argument is fake in the first place. Business owners continue to pay for the cheap labor, and American consumers continue to pay for the cheap goods. Meanwhile politicians drum up votes and donations getting you and me to chase a "problem" that we never intend to solve, because cheap labor is an essential part of our economy. 

1 minute ago, Lloyd said:

And Republicans make it their platform to stop them, and hate them, and chase them out decade, after decade, ...and they're still here. 

To be clear, my point isn't that my "leftist" argument is stronger than your rightist argument. My point is, the argument is fake in the first place. Business owners continue to pay for the cheap labor, and American consumers continue to pay for the cheap goods. Meanwhile politicians drum up votes and donations getting you and me to chase a "problem" that we never intend to solve, because cheap labor is an essential part of our economy. 

Its not a "rightist" argument that immigration laws should be followed.  

The fact that you think it is just shows how far left the Dems have shifted on this over the last couple of decades. 

The law matters, and thats why the Democrats love to convolute this issue.  We all agree that we need cheap labor. 

But stop pretending we also need endless Guatemalan "refugees" and then we can have an open, honest discussion about it 

4 minutes ago, Mike31mt said:

Its not a "rightist" argument that immigration laws should be followed.  

The fact that you think it is just shows how far left the Dems have shifted on this over the last couple of decades. 

The law matters, and thats why the Democrats love to convolute this issue.  We all agree that we need cheap labor. 

But stop pretending we also need endless Guatemalan "refugees" and then we can have an open, honest discussion about it 

It's funny that you make it sound as if I'm locked into some far left Dem talking points when I keep repeating words like "business owners, cheap labor, money, and consumers" and you keep repeating "democrats."   I'm guessing you're between 40-60? So through the decades, you've seen plenty of moments where GOP had complete control of the govt, and yet you still have the same complaints as some West Virginia Mike from the 1950s. Ya know Mike, it kinda seems like we don't intend to actually solve this issue.

But sure...keep blaming Dems and voting for people who offer "solutions" like giant walls.  Sounds like they're making a serious effort to solve this issue that's very important to you.

Make it easier for anyone who isn’t a criminal to come here to work as long as there is work available. Bring back circular migration. 
 

Oh, and end the war on drugs too. 

Immigration is a complicated topic. 

Republicans for various reasons want limited immigration and strong border security. Some of these reasons are reasonable, specifically those related to national security. Others are less so - there are certainly plenty of Republicans who just don't like more non-Whites immigrating, as well as the working class Republicans who view cheap labor as a threat. These are bollocks arguments IMHO; Central Americans have a lot of cultural overlap with America, and if low-skilled immigrants from Guatemala area a threat to your job security maybe you need to improve your marketable skills - something our nation affords sundry opportunities for. 

Democrats for various reasons want more open immigration. Some of these have to do with a simple bleeding heart mindset, where Dems are more likely to see migrants as true refugees fleeing crap situations trying to make for a better life - whereas Republicans see potential threats around national security and crime. Certainly there is also a political calculus going on, though I think the notion that Latinos are automatically a positive for Democrats at the polls (especially considering most who come here are at best years away from being eligible to vote) is vastly overstated by both parties. Latinos are not homogenous politically.

Republicans should be damn thankful that so many Cubans reside in Florida. And Democrats should acknowledge that many Mexican-Americans who live along the border in Texas align more with Republicans on immigration, given how so many of these refugees are not from Mexico and are viewed with disdain and in some cases resentment due to their potential labor threat.

If it was all about "future voters" as the stupid reductionists on the right think, they should see many of these immigrants/migrants/refugees as potential Republican voters, given how much culturally they align with the American right. That the calculus goes the other way lends credence to the racist or at least nativist angle. I suspect it's more of the latter but there's substance to the former. 

Bleeding hearts need to also be more skeptical about those who show up on the border. There are certainly legitimate issues in terms of security to consider, and it has to be recognized that the asylum system is being abused. That said, Democrats seem to support increased funding to right-size our ability to handle the influx, while Republicans are happy to try and starve this beast and just erect walls.

Republicans also need to recognize that clamping down excessively hard on legalized immigration naturally results in more illegal immigration. The immigration quotas on beleaguered nations to our south are excessive, as are the requirements for work visas and the path to citizenship. It's not surprising that families who feel staying where they are represents an existential threat are choosing the dangerous but immediate path to refuge, even if it means they're here illegally. 

1 hour ago, Boogyman said:

I started factory work at 19 bucks an hour, about 26 years ago. A coke was a dollar. It's not even close. Regardless of what you or I think they should be paid, it's definitely incentive to to come here to work. That's not even considering the conditions.

Lol. It’s an example that can be used across the world. Indians I know from India earn more money working in sheety factories than they would if the factory wasn’t there. Seems like you fail to realize without these jobs, that pay decent enough for the area, they’d have nothing. 

17 minutes ago, 20dawk4life said:

Lol. It’s an example that can be used across the world. Indians I know from India earn more money working in sheety factories than they would if the factory wasn’t there. Seems like you fail to realize without these jobs, that pay decent enough for the area, they’d have nothing. 

I was more look at possible solutions to help mitigate the root cause of the problem. 

the radical left has been calling for open borders for decades. 

Same story, different day.

 

There is still 1 good way to stop illegal immigration. Punish employers of illegals meaningfully, making it MORE expensive to hire illegals than legals.

 

Nothing else will do a damned thing. People come legally, and don't leave. Unless you start assigning people to follow every immigrant, that will not change, as long as they can find better employment and opportunity than they can at home.

Walls won't do a thing. Making liberals be conservative won't make a difference.

 

1 minute ago, Toastrel said:

Same story, different day.

 

There is still 1 good way to stop illegal immigration. Punish employers of illegals meaningfully, making it MORE expensive to hire illegals than legals.

 

Nothing else will do a damned thing. People come legally, and don't leave. Unless you start assigning people to follow every immigrant, that will not change, as long as they can find better employment and opportunity than they can at home.

Walls won't do a thing. Making liberals be conservative won't make a difference.

 

That's how I've always felt. The thing is, a lot of the people who say they don't want them here also employ them lol. And then there is the labor shortage to consider.