35 minutes ago, Tnt4philly said:

It is against federal law for non citizens to vote in federal elections. No one worth worrying over is trying to change that. 
 

Some states allow non citizens to vote in local elections. 

Yeah, they just want to make the illegal aliens into citizens.

Why are you so dishonest?

5 hours ago, Tnt4philly said:

It is against federal law for non citizens to vote in federal elections. No one worth worrying over is trying to change that. 

Well that’s not true.

"The DREAMers and all of them. Because our ultimate goal is to help the DREAMers but get a path to citizenship for all 11 million or however many undocumented there are here.”

I’d say the #1 democrat in the senate is someone worth worrying about. 

41 minutes ago, Phillyterp85 said:

Well that’s not true.

"The DREAMers and all of them. Because our ultimate goal is to help the DREAMers but get a path to citizenship for all 11 million or however many undocumented there are here.”

I’d say the #1 democrat in the senate is someone worth worrying about. 

Yeah, I made reference to that, but some people in here just laugh and pretend it isn’t happening.

8 hours ago, Phillyterp85 said:

Well that’s not true.

"The DREAMers and all of them. Because our ultimate goal is to help the DREAMers but get a path to citizenship for all 11 million or however many undocumented there are here.”

I’d say the #1 democrat in the senate is someone worth worrying about. 

The Dems had a chance to pass their own immigration reform during the Obama admin, but wanting to give dreamers and others a path to citizenship is not the same as wanting to let non citizens vote in federal elections.
 

Personally, I think "dreamers” should be given a path to citizenship and I really DGAF who they vote for. 

6 hours ago, Tnt4philly said:

The Dems had a chance to pass their own immigration reform during the Obama admin, but wanting to give dreamers and others a path to citizenship is not the same as wanting to let non citizens vote in federal elections.
 

Personally, I think "dreamers” should be given a path to citizenship and I really DGAF who they vote for. 

Wanting to give illegal immigrants a path to citizenship is absolutely the same thing as wanting to let non-citizens vote in federal elections.  Once they are citizens, they can vote.   No one is claiming that they are trying to change the law to allow people who aren’t citizens the ability to vote as a non-citizen.  They clearly want to change the law to allow people who are not citizens to be turned into citizens, and then they can legally vote as citizens.

The part I find hypocritical from republicans is that it was Ronald Reagan who signed into law amnesty for over 3 million illegal immigrants.  And yet they defend that move.   

4 minutes ago, Phillyterp85 said:

Wanting to give illegal immigrants a path to citizenship is absolutely the same thing as wanting to let non-citizens vote in federal elections.  Once they are citizens, they can vote.   No one is claiming that they are trying to change the law to allow people who aren’t citizens the ability to vote as a non-citizen.  They clearly want to change the law to allow people who are not citizens to be turned into citizens, and then they can legally vote as citizens.

The part I find hypocritical from republicans is that it was Ronald Reagan who signed into law amnesty for over 3 million illegal immigrants.  And yet they defend that move.   

Dreamers are a special carve-out IMHO. They are people who have lived their entire lives in the United States.

Giving them a path to citizenship isn't the same as just giving them the vote. They still have steps they need to take to qualify for citizenship. 

2nd and 3rd generation immigrants from Central and South America fully integrate into the US culturally, and both parties have opportunity to court those citizens. We're a nation that is facing a looming labor crisis as boomers retire and longer term issues with birth rate, this anti-immigration stance makes very little sense to me. It's literally a solution to a real problem. 

Immigrants tend to be much more upwardly mobile than "native-born" Americans, more likely to be entrepreneurs and run small businesses. 

Turning away a gift seems backwards thinking. 

On 9/7/2023 at 9:15 PM, ToastJenkins said:

Seems doubtful

Going back to this point, found this study which cites data showing lower crime rates, and even mentions the same premise. 

 

The consequences of criminal sanctions due to their precarious legal status may also be relevant. Far more than legal immigrants, undocumented immigrants have strong incentives to avoid criminal involvement for fear of detection and deportation. In this regard, lower rates of crime for undocumented individuals are consistent with a deterrence-based argument, whereby undocumented immigrants face considerably harsher sanctions (mainly deportation) from criminal wrongdoing compared to their citizen and legal immigrant counterparts.

Taken together, these perspectives—assimilation, selection, and deterrence—help us understand why the observed crime rates for undocumented immigrants were considerably lower than those for legal immigrants and native-born citizens. Each, in turn, offers a fruitful avenue for further research on undocumented immigration and crime.

 

https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2014704117

48 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

Dreamers are a special carve-out IMHO. They are people who have lived their entire lives in the United States.

Giving them a path to citizenship isn't the same as just giving them the vote. They still have steps they need to take to qualify for citizenship. 

2nd and 3rd generation immigrants from Central and South America fully integrate into the US culturally, and both parties have opportunity to court those citizens. We're a nation that is facing a looming labor crisis as boomers retire and longer term issues with birth rate, this anti-immigration stance makes very little sense to me. It's literally a solution to a real problem. 

Immigrants tend to be much more upwardly mobile than "native-born" Americans, more likely to be entrepreneurs and run small businesses. 

Turning away a gift seems backwards thinking. 

"It’s not happening.”

"OK it’s happening but it’s not a big deal.”

”It’s happening and it’s a good thing.”

"People freaking out about it are the problem.”

 

10 minutes ago, TEW said:

"It’s not happening.”

"OK it’s happening but it’s not a big deal.”

”It’s happening and it’s a good thing.”

"People freaking out about it are the problem.”

 

maybe if one party wasn't openly hostile to immigrants they would capture more of the vote? 

weird, I know. 

I could easily turn this around and say the reason that people like you and many in the Republican party are so openly hostile to immigrants is politically motivated. 

personally I think a more permissive immigration policy is generally beneficial to the nation long term. I can believe that independent of whether or not it's beneficial to a particular political party.

and if I believe it's the right policy, it really ought not matter whether it's beneficial to one party or another - the parties will simply adjust, as they always do in our duopoly, and choose their base accordingly.

13 hours ago, TEW said:

Yeah, I made reference to that, but some people in here just laugh and pretend it isn’t happening.

Its a shame that our choices are between giving illegals the vote, or no one ever voting again.

9 minutes ago, Gannan said:

Its a shame that our choices are between giving illegals the vote, or no one ever voting again.

He only cares because they are such a threat to White People. They come and take our jobs, and take our women. The drug dealers and rapists.

3 minutes ago, jsdarkstar said:

He only cares because they are such a threat to White People. They come and take our jobs, and take our women. The drug dealers and rapists.

It is getting out of control though, and it is unsustainable. Both parties need to work together to find common ground on it. At the rate we are going, we are going to take in the entire population of Venezuela. People can't just wake up one day and say "I hate this country", come here, and we just let them in. They should have to stay where they are and apply for asylum. Technically if they are in grave danger, they should seek asylum in a neighboring country. The first one they come to. Not get on top of a train and ride through half a dozen countries to come straight here. This is a massive drain on resources. This alongside Afghanistan has been the biggest failure of the Biden administration. 

22 minutes ago, Gannan said:

It is getting out of control though, and it is unsustainable. Both parties need to work together to find common ground on it. At the rate we are going, we are going to take in the entire population of Venezuela. People can't just wake up one day and say "I hate this country", come here, and we just let them in. They should have to stay where they are and apply for asylum. Technically if they are in grave danger, they should seek asylum in a neighboring country. The first one they come to. Not get on top of a train and ride through half a dozen countries to come straight here. This is a massive drain on resources. This alongside Afghanistan has been the biggest failure of the Biden administration. 

there's no incentive for Republicans to solve the problem. if they do, they can't complain about "all the illegals". 

it's why they've always been the ones to kill any of the immigration reform bills that might actually have helped mitigate the problem. 

you can argue Democrats are too "liberal" on immigration, but they've at least been at the table trying to hammer out deals. Republican voters won't accept anything short of sending everybody - Dreamers included - "back to Mexico". 

25 minutes ago, Gannan said:

It is getting out of control though, and it is unsustainable. Both parties need to work together to find common ground on it. At the rate we are going, we are going to take in the entire population of Venezuela. People can't just wake up one day and say "I hate this country", come here, and we just let them in. They should have to stay where they are and apply for asylum. Technically if they are in grave danger, they should seek asylum in a neighboring country. The first one they come to. Not get on top of a train and ride through half a dozen countries to come straight here. This is a massive drain on resources. This alongside Afghanistan has been the biggest failure of the Biden administration. 

What is the common ground? Just read this thread, liberals are now conditioned to think that the massive flow of illegals into the country it a good thing and they advocate for policies that will incentivize more of the behavior (grant them citizenship and voting rights). It really doesn't matter how many cities have to declare a state of emergency to deal with various migrant crises. And let's not pretend this is some sort of accident. Biden and the dems know exactly what they're doing here. They're ending successful policies of previous administrations. Biden is standing in front of crowds saying the way to deal with the problem at the border is to fast-track citizenship and make it even easier to come here. 

Insane sheet like this doesn't even matter to them because the tv told them illegal immigrants are our greatest strength:

14 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

there's no incentive for Republicans to solve the problem. if they do, they can't complain about "all the illegals". 

it's why they've always been the ones to kill any of the immigration reform bills that might actually have helped mitigate the problem. 

you can argue Democrats are too "liberal" on immigration, but they've at least been at the table trying to hammer out deals. Republican voters won't accept anything short of sending everybody - Dreamers included - "back to Mexico". 

Oh wow, Republicans want people who came here illegally sent back? What a bunch of naughtzees! Anyway, TV said illegals do the jobs americans won't do and also don't commit any crime and help the economy.

It should be easier for anyone who is not a criminal, and has a job here in the US, to come here for work, period.  They don’t necessarily have to be given citizenship, bring back circular migration. 

1 hour ago, jsdarkstar said:

He only cares because they are such a threat to White People. They come and take our jobs, and take our women. The drug dealers and rapists.

 

I care because I actually believe in national sovereignty and if we are going to have elections, one party shouldn’t be able to import a new electorate to secure political power at the expense of actual citizens.

37 minutes ago, Tnt4philly said:

It should be easier for anyone who is not a criminal, and has a job here in the US, to come here for work, period.  They don’t necessarily have to be given citizenship, bring back circular migration. 

No. Not period. The idea that it is a universal good in every case with no negative externalities and no net negative impact in any situation is simply false and only a moron would make such an assertion.

1 hour ago, Gannan said:

Its a shame that our choices are between giving illegals the vote, or no one ever voting again.

If only those were the two choices, it wouldn’t be such a shame.

2 minutes ago, TEW said:

No. Not period. The idea that it is a universal good in every case with no negative externalities and no net negative impact in any situation is simply false and only a moron would make such an assertion.

Do you have a compulsion to always lie by adding in dopey stuff the other person never said?

Is it brain damage? Emotional trauma?

Or, as I suspect, just a complete lack of ethics?

2 hours ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

maybe if one party wasn't openly hostile to immigrants they would capture more of the vote? 

weird, I know. 

I could easily turn this around and say the reason that people like you and many in the Republican party are so openly hostile to immigrants is politically motivated. 

personally I think a more permissive immigration policy is generally beneficial to the nation long term. I can believe that independent of whether or not it's beneficial to a particular political party.

and if I believe it's the right policy, it really ought not matter whether it's beneficial to one party or another - the parties will simply adjust, as they always do in our duopoly, and choose their base accordingly.

No, it has nothing to do with hostility towards immigration. It has to do with actual policies. Immigrants want what democrats want. They want free sh**, given to them by the government, exactly like they vote for in their own countries.

Yes, OF COURSE it is politically motivated on both sides. The difference is one side isn’t deliberately trying to dilute American citizen’s voting power by importing a new electorate. In any other time in history this would be considered beyond treason and the people attempting to do this would be decapitated in the town square.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Toastrel said:

Do you have a compulsion to always lie by adding in dopey stuff the other person never said?

Is it brain damage? Emotional trauma?

Or, as I suspect, just a complete lack of ethics?

Hey moron, he made a statement with no caveats and literally ended it by saying "period.”

If he does not believe this to be "period” he shouldn’t have made such a strong statement and deliberately ended it by excluding any nuance whatsoever.

5 minutes ago, TEW said:

Hey moron, he made a statement with no caveats and literally ended it by saying "period.”

If he does not believe this to be "period” he shouldn’t have made such a strong statement and deliberately ended it by excluding any nuance whatsoever.

Yeah, your need to add points to argue against is all about everybody else.

1 hour ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

there's no incentive for Republicans to solve the problem. if they do, they can't complain about "all the illegals". 

it's why they've always been the ones to kill any of the immigration reform bills that might actually have helped mitigate the problem. 

you can argue Democrats are too "liberal" on immigration, but they've at least been at the table trying to hammer out deals. Republican voters won't accept anything short of sending everybody - Dreamers included - "back to Mexico". 

At this point even Trump's "wait in Mexico" makes more sense than letting them flood the streets of major metropolitan areas. 

1 hour ago, Kz! said:

What is the common ground? Just read this thread, liberals are now conditioned to think that the massive flow of illegals into the country it a good thing and they advocate for policies that will incentivize more of the behavior (grant them citizenship and voting rights). It really doesn't matter how many cities have to declare a state of emergency to deal with various migrant crises. And let's not pretend this is some sort of accident. Biden and the dems know exactly what they're doing here. They're ending successful policies of previous administrations. Biden is standing in front of crowds saying the way to deal with the problem at the border is to fast-track citizenship and make it even easier to come here. 

Insane sheet like this doesn't even matter to them because the tv told them illegal immigrants are our greatest strength:

The dreamers are people who haven't lived in another country. It would be cruel to take someone who is in their 20's who has never been to Columbia, and deport them to Columbia. So for me a common ground would be to let those people stay and deport everyone who has come illegally in the last 2 years and put a policy in place that they have to apply for asylum in their home country or closest adjacent country. Then seal the border. They cannot be allowed to stay here while they wait for their case to be heard. It won't happen though. Both parties just want to use it as a political football.