Excited for the offense

[Random Reglar]

15 minutes ago, eglz1 said:

Heavy run game planning isn't going to work against good run defenses. Yes there are such things as good run defenses. Having the quarterback be the leading rusher works well in college.

It works well for the Ravens, who have been to the playoffs every year since Lamar became the starter, and Lamar won the MVP.    The Eagles offense is #11 in points scored. Last year it was #26.  Hurts is #12 in the NFL in rushing yards,  #2 among QBs, behind Lamar, who is #6.  He has a ypc of 6.0,  bringing up the Eagles overall ypc to 4.9,  #4 in the NFL.  The Eagles are running, and scoring points.  For a team that was #26 last year, with a 4-11-1 record,  #11 in points scored is good.   


The Eagles are 5 in the NFC in points scored.  If it was determined by overall points scored, the Eagles would be a wildcard team, the 2nd in.   The offense is not the problem, and Jalen Hurts is a very important part of that offense. 

[EazyEaglez]

7 minutes ago, SNOORDA said:

Great post and should be pinned into the coaching staffs head every week before game-planing for  the next opponent 

I feel like the coaches are getting it. It feels to me like Sirianni has turned the corner here. We wanted to see improvement. Hard to argue against the idea that in the last two weeks Sirianni has done a much better coaching job. Gannon still has some learning to do it seems, but I do feel like his side of the ball is lacking playmakers. 

[Random Reglar]

3 hours ago, EazyEaglez said:

I think the identity is a power run team, the run style quarterback, running backs, shaky wide receivers, and far better suited to run block than pass block offensive line supports that. The Eagles are currently 11th in PPG that’s not to shabby for a team that showed as many offensive flaws as before. They have also cut down all those stupid illegal man downfield penalties thanks to throwing less of this screens. This team needs to embrace their identity of a power run team until the quarterback becomes more accurate and the receivers get better. 

This team needs to embrace their identity of a power run team until the quarterback becomes bad at running.

I watch the Ravens closely.  What they were able to do in 2019 was run run run, and then throw one of the passes that Lamar was good at.  They practiced throwing TD passes,  even if the drive was mostly running,  Lamar ends up with a very high percentage of TD passes.  The last 2 years not as much,    but that was the secret,  don't throw as much,  and pretty much to the same receivers.   Lamar to Hollywood Brown,  to Mark Andrews.   Hurts has the same type of people to throw to,  Smith and Goedert.   Lamar in 2018 especially,  ran a lot more than Hurts has.

[Random Reglar]

42 minutes ago, eglz1 said:

I'm pretty sure the better teams in the league endorse your plan -- for the Eagles. They could be like the Patriots and Jets, 2 wins for the Patriots in July. A win vs. the Eagles in July.

nope.   the Eagles have an amazing defense in this scenario, much better than it would be if the Eagles were spending big on QBs and WRs.

When the Dolphins unveiled the Wildcat on their way to the playoffs,  what team were the Dolphins playing?  Who did the Dolphins beat?

[97is]

Ive come around on Hurtz. I think he has enough athletic ability and all the intangibles to figure it out. Also when the pressure is on he just gets better. There is no teaching that. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

7 hours ago, Random Reglar said:

They needed to learn something new to not pound a round peg into a square hole

So they came in expecting to work with Wentz and it took them until week 8 to work out it needed to be run heavy?

[UK_EaglesFan89]

7 hours ago, EazyEaglez said:

I don’t know for sure, but I can’t help but wonder if the analytics people were the ones pushing that stuff. In any case he seems to have learned from the mistake. It took him half a season to figure it out though. 

Let's see bud. The last 2 weeks things have been much better but it's been against 2 pretty bad defenses and ones that aren't good against the run. I know week to week you've got to adapt and change so I'm fully behind them doing that but at some point I think we will see pass heavy again. 

[time2rock]

4 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Let's see bud. The last 2 weeks things have been much better but it's been against 2 pretty bad defenses and ones that aren't good against the run. I know week to week you've got to adapt and change so I'm fully behind them doing that but at some point I think we will see pass heavy again. 

It's good to see Sirianni recognize the last 2 opponents had bad run defenses and game planned to exploit that weakness (something we didn't see Doug or Andy do a lot of).  But I do wonder if that was intentional or if perhaps they were dialing down what they were asking Hurts to do.  We'll know better these next 2 weeks when we face much stronger run defenses in Denver and NO.  

[UK_EaglesFan89]

2 hours ago, time2rock said:

It's good to see Sirianni recognize the last 2 opponents had bad run defenses and game planned to exploit that weakness (something we didn't see Doug or Andy do a lot of).  But I do wonder if that was intentional or if perhaps they were dialing down what they were asking Hurts to do.  We'll know better these next 2 weeks when we face much stronger run defenses in Denver and NO.  

The problem he's going to have at some point is that he's going to come up against a good defense or one that takes away the run. And when that happens its going to be a struggle because Hurts can't throw the ball consistently. 

[time2rock]

32 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

The problem he's going to have at some point is that he's going to come up against a good defense or one that takes away the run. And when that happens its going to be a struggle because Hurts can't throw the ball consistently. 

I eluded to that at the end of my post ... much tougher run defenses these next 2 weeks (Denver, NO).  

[EazyEaglez]

10 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Let's see bud. The last 2 weeks things have been much better but it's been against 2 pretty bad defenses and ones that aren't good against the run. I know week to week you've got to adapt and change so I'm fully behind them doing that but at some point I think we will see pass heavy again. 

I can’t say I know for sure. I can only hope. 

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

10 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

The problem he's going to have at some point is that he's going to come up against a good defense or one that takes away the run. And when that happens its going to be a struggle because Hurts can't throw the ball consistently. 

Good point.  The best we can hope for then is offensive balance versus jumping too far to the pass.  I think he can succeed in that world, but we must stay in the game and not chase points. 

The biggest problem is the "bend and then break" defense we have been employing lately.  Can they keep us from playing from too far behind?  If not, pass happy, here we come.

[proveagle]

16 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

The problem he's going to have at some point is that he's going to come up against a good defense or one that takes away the run. And when that happens its going to be a struggle because Hurts can't throw the ball consistently. 

I agree they will have to keep changing it up for sure.  Just wanted to say that there is a lot of scheme alterations and change-ups that can happen in the run game alone.  They can gap/power inside as well as run counter trey.  The can run inside zone and outside zone and split zones.  They can run reverses and QB power etc.  They can do this out of tons of different formations.  And they can make it look very similar so people can't get settled in their D.  And through all that they can sprinkle in play action passes etc.

Its not a great formula for long-term success but it could be used to grow Hurts the way the ravens grew Lamar (mentioned above by someone else).  Passing game is complicated because their is a lot of synergy between protections / routes / throwing with anticipation and if one of those is not in sync the whole thing looks bad.

And the Eagles have the oline and TEs to maul people, and now a power back to grind it out.

Edit: Wanted to add a bit more Counter Trey info.  Teams like Steelers still run it but its also heavy in the college game too.  Lincoln Riley uses it as the base for his Sooners run game:  https://spreadoffensefootball.com/oklahomas-counter-trey-variations/

Note the picture is Hurts. 🙂  I would love to see Sirianni adopt this into their run game.

[Damanick10]

I thought Jalen was better but he still missed a lot of opportunities. That deep miss to wide open Goedert was a killer that would possibly be a TD. I really like mobility and have been impressed with his pocket presence but he is still extremely inconsistent with accuracy and finding the open player.

[DawkinsOwnage03]

Not impressed

[UK_EaglesFan89]

6 hours ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

Good point.  The best we can hope for then is offensive balance versus jumping too far to the pass.  I think he can succeed in that world, but we must stay in the game and not chase points. 

The biggest problem is the "bend and then break" defense we have been employing lately.  Can they keep us from playing from too far behind?  If not, pass happy, here we come.

Exactly. A more normal balanced offense where Jalen has to make say 20 to 25 passes may be absolutely fine. 30+ though and that's not going to end well. 

And I just don't think Gannon has it in his make up. Look this defense lacks top talent we know that. But this defense isn't talentless. Cox is still a good player, Hargrave is a very very good player. Slay is a really good CB (top 20?) and Maddox has been really good in the slot. Then you add in guys like Nelson and Sweat and I think there's talent. There's more talent than the output is showing for sure. 

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

4 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Exactly. A more normal balanced offense where Jalen has to make say 20 to 25 passes may be absolutely fine. 30+ though and that's not going to end well. 

And I just don't think Gannon has it in his make up. Look this defense lacks top talent we know that. But this defense isn't talentless. Cox is still a good player, Hargrave is a very very good player. Slay is a really good CB (top 20?) and Maddox has been really good in the slot. Then you add in guys like Nelson and Sweat and I think there's talent. There's more talent than the output is showing for sure. 

The average number of plays for an NFL offense is trending towards 70.  We are currently at 60.  We aren't going to be able to run 35 to40 times per game to limit him to 20 to 25 and still win.  Hurts has to be able to function at 30+ passes routinely and 40+ will happen.  Remember, alot of his passes will be tight screens which he should complete most of, while Siri keeps him in his comfortable range.  The longer "hurry up and score" passes could be a problem because of development time and distance.  We just can't get behind.

I'll be shocked if Gannon is going anywhere, as I have stated before.  Howie needs to build that side of the ball to match the scheme.  There is some talent, but there are some massive issues with depth.  The LBs are making every other player look really bad around them.  We have a good secondary on the edges, not great, and the safeties are average, at best.  Slay didn't play like Top 20 last year and we blamed the scheme then, too and a CB needy team let Nelson walk. Safeties - meh.  The line is beat up from lack of depth, thus Sweat has disappeared and Kerrigan hasn't done anything to help.  We essentially have 2 DEs and one of those is Barnett.  I hate when the defense looks bad, too.

I think what we are seeing is all of the failures in the draft have finally caught up on both sides of the ball.  

[UK_EaglesFan89]

3 hours ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

Hurts has to be able to function at 30+ passes routinely and 40+ will happen.  Remember, alot of his passes will be tight screens which he should complete most of, while Siri keeps him in his comfortable range.  The longer "hurry up and score" passes could be a problem because of development time and distance.  We just can't get behind.

Oh I know he's going to need to but I'm not so sure he can. In fact I'm pretty certain he can't as we've seen. But hey perhaps he's able to continue to develop. 

3 hours ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

I'll be shocked if Gannon is going anywhere, as I have stated before.  Howie needs to build that side of the ball to match the scheme

He doesn't have a scheme... He's told us that. And whilst that may be BS he's just feeding to the media the on field stuff suggests it may be true. And if Howie gives him the pieces to run "his defense" that could have dramatic repercussions if he's not the answer... And let's be honest he's done nothing to suggest he is the answer. He's been bad, like historical bad. 

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

17 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Oh I know he's going to need to but I'm not so sure he can. In fact I'm pretty certain he can't as we've seen. But hey perhaps he's able to continue to develop. 

He doesn't have a scheme... He's told us that. And whilst that may be BS he's just feeding to the media the on field stuff suggests it may be true. And if Howie gives him the pieces to run "his defense" that could have dramatic repercussions if he's not the answer... And let's be honest he's done nothing to suggest he is the answer. He's been bad, like historical bad. 

I know it's the typical Philly thing to be negative and destroy everything that gets in our path during bad times.  That's why it's Negadelphia, I guess.  I'm not buying that with Gannon, especially when the lack of talent and depth on this team is so apparent.  The funny part of that is that we all knew it going in. 

And that "no scheme" comment is being taken way too literally.  You are smart enough to know that, so there is no reason to waste time on it.

We will see.  We now have identified that we may not have the right coaching staff or QB.  Looks like a "be careful what you wish for" moment.

[EazyEaglez]

13 hours ago, Damanick10 said:

I thought Jalen was better but he still missed a lot of opportunities. That deep miss to wide open Goedert was a killer that would possibly be a TD. I really like mobility and have been impressed with his pocket presence but he is still extremely inconsistent with accuracy and finding the open player.

I hate to break it to you guys, but this is what normally happens with young quarterbacks. The idea that Justin’s Herbert type quarterbacks are a dime a dozen is just a fantasy. When you don’t pick a quarterback in the top five the learning/development curve is even higher. On top of that Hurts is a run first style quarterback. This is going to take some time. On top of that the coaches were running a system that Hurts was over 80% of the offense. Clearly he was not ready for that much responsibility right now in his career. Of course the coach is just as green when it comes to all this too. Mistakes have been made here and I get the feeling we aren’t going to have the answers we want over the next few years. 

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

27 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

I hate to break it to you guys, but this is what normally happens with young quarterbacks. The idea that Justin’s Herbert type quarterbacks are a dime a dozen is just a fantasy. When you don’t pick a quarterback in the top five the learning/development curve is even higher. On top of that Hurts is a run first style quarterback. This is going to take some time. On top of that the coaches were running a system that Hurts was over 80% of the offense. Clearly he was not ready for that much responsibility right now in his career. Of course the coach is just as green when it comes to all this too. Mistakes have been made here and I get the feeling we aren’t going to have the answers we want over the next few years. 

A few years is a long time to wait to determine if a marginal QB can get it done with the way the NFL works (although this team is definitely years away).  Every minute we spend developing a guy that can't get us a SB is wasted time.   Right or wrong, its different when you put that into a high 1st pick.  I hope he is "that guy", because we need to use the picks on other things.  I just have my doubts. 

[Random Reglar]

On 11/9/2021 at 2:23 AM, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

So they came in expecting to work with Wentz and it took them until week 8 to work out it needed to be run heavy?

Some coaches with running QBs continue to try to force the running QB not to run, and if they want to throw the ball 2/3d or 3/4ths of the time that's what they'll do, and they'll lose on purpose, and hope they keep their job, while getting rid of the running QB.

It doesn't look like that's what the Eagles are doing,  it looks like they're trying.

If you're a pass first team or you've always been a coach on a pass first team, if the run game has never been important,   how likely is it that you'll have plays with a wide variety of different types of run blocking,  pulling, extra blockers, etc.   Not very likely.  Probably not a lot of time was spent on innovative run blocking.   But when you've got a running QB,  and you realize that you can win with quality running QB running and quality running back running,  you'll want to get creative with run blocking.   Which might very well be new for the coaches.  The Chargers did not ever do a lot of running, and for the most part,  Siri and Shane were coaches on the Chargers.   So,  I'm not concerned if they were unable to immediately pull out innovative run blocking.   Greg Roman of the Ravens did have the run blocking down, but he was OC for the 9ers with Kaepernick and the Bills with Taylor.  The Eagles have good oline run blockers.    They're getting it worked out.

[EazyEaglez]

2 hours ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

A few years is a long time to wait to determine if a marginal QB can get it done with the way the NFL works (although this team is definitely years away).  Every minute we spend developing a guy that can't get us a SB is wasted time.   Right or wrong, its different when you put that into a high 1st pick.  I hope he is "that guy", because we need to use the picks on other things.  I just have my doubts. 

Who can "get us to the Super Bowl?” Was it Wentz, because he never won a playoff game. The irony is the only quarterback to ever win a Super Bowl here was Foles. The interesting part is that team was good! You can waste year after year chasing after "the franchise quarterback” and that guy won’t even win a playoff for you. Heck Mathew Stafford is an elite level quarterback and always has been, but he took the Lions nowhere. You need more than just a quarterback to win in the NFL, and wasting so many years trying to find "the guy” can easily turn a team into the Browns. Heck the Bucs lucked into the greatest quarterback of all time. Rather than waste picks trying to find that guy (they wasted a pick on Winston) maybe the move is to develop the roster that it become a place that a veteran quarterback ( you know when this team is legit a quarterback away from competing) might find this team appealing. Till then build the roster up. 

[Random Reglar]

If, this year,  the defense was as good as the offense,  in terms of points,  the Eagles would be on track for the playoffs.

The defense needs to be #11 or so.   But it's #20.  

Get some new very good players on defense,  defense goes to #11 or better.   There is more room to improve.   From 20 to 1.  That's a lot of room.   With the Eagles offense,  there is more room to go down than up.   I'd want to lock in that #11.   Some other QB might drag the offense down to 21 or 32.    Fill the defense with great players,  lock in the QB,   maybe the defense gets close to 1, because you're spending so many first round draft picks to try to get it to 1 from 20. 

[EazyEaglez]

14 minutes ago, Random Reglar said:

Some coaches with running QBs continue to try to force the running QB not to run, and if they want to throw the ball 2/3d or 3/4ths of the time that's what they'll do, and they'll lose on purpose, and hope they keep their job, while getting rid of the running QB.

It doesn't look like that's what the Eagles are doing,  it looks like they're trying.

If you're a pass first team or you've always been a coach on a pass first team, if the run game has never been important,   how likely is it that you'll have plays with a wide variety of different types of run blocking,  pulling, extra blockers, etc.   Not very likely.  Probably not a lot of time was spent on innovative run blocking.   But when you've got a running QB,  and you realize that you can win with quality running QB running and quality running back running,  you'll want to get creative with run blocking.   Which might very well be new for the coaches.  The Chargers did not ever do a lot of running, and for the most part,  Siri and Shane were coaches on the Chargers.   So,  I'm not concerned if they were unable to immediately pull out innovative run blocking.   Greg Roman of the Ravens did have the run blocking down, but he was OC for the 9ers with Kaepernick and the Bills with Taylor.  The Eagles have good oline run blockers.    They're getting it worked out.

That’s part of playing to the strengths of your roster. If the Eagles wanted to be a 40 passes plus a game team then they shouldn’t have invested so much in McNabb, Wentz, Vick, and now Hurts, because none of these guys are naturally accurate passers.