36 minutes ago, Joe Shades 73 said:

At least 5 years of baseball misery is here.

Could be a decade. Never know with the Phillies. Went from 83 to 93 to finally reach the playoffs again. Then 94 to 2007. Then 2012 to 2022.

4 hours ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Could be a decade. Never know with the Phillies. Went from 83 to 93 to finally reach the playoffs again. Then 94 to 2007. Then 2012 to 2022.

That was my version of positivity

The tigers and mariners must have watched the Phillies yesterday and dedicated their hitting performances in their memory

It's not going to happen but I would trade Harper. The last two years he has regressed and his body is breaking down. If he takes another step down next year, that contract is going to look awfully bad. At least with Schwarber you know you have at least two more years of 40+ homers. Id rather re-sign him, stick with Trea and trade Harper.

41 minutes ago, Khani1 said:

It's not going to happen but I would trade Harper. The last two years he has regressed and his body is breaking down. If he takes another step down next year, that contract is going to look awfully bad. At least with Schwarber you know you have at least two more years of 40+ homers. Id rather re-sign him, stick with Trea and trade Harper.

The goal should be to shed the entire team. I was about to say whole team minus Sanchez, but he’s 28 and could likely fetch a massive prospect in return.

This team isn’t competing in the next 2 years. That renders Harper, Turner, Wheeler, and Schwarber all totally useless to us.

Firesale is the fastest way to get them back to contention.

With trading Harper, the goal is simply to shed salary. We wouldn’t get anything in return. But I bet we might get someone to pick up a lot of it.

1 hour ago, Khani1 said:

It's not going to happen but I would trade Harper. The last two years he has regressed and his body is breaking down. If he takes another step down next year, that contract is going to look awfully bad. At least with Schwarber you know you have at least two more years of 40+ homers. Id rather re-sign him, stick with Trea and trade Harper.

I think it was 2 years ago that they said Harper won't age well with the violence he swings the bat with.

2 hours ago, Khani1 said:

It's not going to happen but I would trade Harper. The last two years he has regressed and his body is breaking down. If he takes another step down next year, that contract is going to look awfully bad. At least with Schwarber you know you have at least two more years of 40+ homers. Id rather re-sign him, stick with Trea and trade Harper.

Nah - if anything, his contract will fit his current modern day production - meaning he's going to perform the way a guy who makes 25 mil a year in 2026 performs - vs a super star who makes 40 mil per year in 2026.

That said, any sort of extension that he was seeking can be thrown out the window.

2 hours ago, eagle45 said:

The goal should be to shed the entire team. I was about to say whole team minus Sanchez, but he’s 28 and could likely fetch a massive prospect in return.

This team isn’t competing in the next 2 years. That renders Harper, Turner, Wheeler, and Schwarber all totally useless to us.

Firesale is the fastest way to get them back to contention.

If they wanted to do that (and I don’t think John Middleton is going to) they have too many contracts that are not movable. Like even if you wanted to just get off the money, teams aren’t gonna wanna pay some of these guys that. For instance, Aaron Nola if you wanted to trade him with five years left on that contract. It is going to be very hard unless you take a good percentage of that contract. I can’t imagine the Phillies are going to eat a half or slightly more of that contract to get them off the books. they’re still paying them a lot of money and it’s not to be here. Castellanos can deal as last year of his contract but gonna have to eat some money to move him. I think that’s happening anyway

Plus since Nola been in the league for 10 years, he can block any trade. Same thing with Bryce Harper, who has the ability to block a trade and he just had his fourth kid. So those guys can’t really deal unless you convince them and maybe Bryce you say we are doing a rebuild and dont want to waste your prime.

I think you could move marsh, Bohm and Stott. I think there’s a market. Particularly Stott who’s a great fielder and had a second half resurgence. I also think the time to deal marsh is now after his last 5 months before the playoffs. For pitching could deal Sanchez. He’d bring in a haul especially with that contract but even so still need guys for the future and he is 28. Could be like wheeler where he’s still very good at 33-35.

8 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

If they wanted to do that (and I don’t think John Middleton is going to) they have too many contracts that are not movable. Like even if you wanted to just get off the money, teams aren’t gonna wanna pay some of these guys that. For instance, Aaron Nola if you wanted to trade him with five years left on that contract. It is going to be very hard unless you take a good percentage of that contract. I can’t imagine the Phillies are going to eat a half or slightly more of that contract to get them off the books. they’re still paying them a lot of money and it’s not to be here. Castellanos can deal as last year of his contract but gonna have to eat some money to move him. I think that’s happening anyway

Plus since Nola been in the league for 10 years, he can block any trade. Same thing with Bryce Harper, who has the ability to block a trade and he just had his fourth kid. So those guys can’t really deal unless you convince them and maybe Bryce you say we are doing a rebuild and dont want to waste your prime.

I think you could move marsh, Bohm and Stott. I think there’s a market. Particularly Stott who’s a great fielder and had a second half resurgence. I also think the time to deal marsh is now after his last 5 months before the playoffs. For pitching could deal Sanchez. He’d bring in a haul especially with that contract but even so still need guys for the future and he is 28. Could be like wheeler where he’s still very good at 33-35.

So to sum up, they are screwed

11 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

If they wanted to do that (and I don’t think John Middleton is going to) they have too many contracts that are not movable. Like even if you wanted to just get off the money, teams aren’t gonna wanna pay some of these guys that. For instance, Aaron Nola if you wanted to trade him with five years left on that contract. It is going to be very hard unless you take a good percentage of that contract. I can’t imagine the Phillies are going to eat a half or slightly more of that contract to get them off the books. they’re still paying them a lot of money and it’s not to be here. Castellanos can deal as last year of his contract but gonna have to eat some money to move him. I think that’s happening anyway

Plus since Nola been in the league for 10 years, he can block any trade. Same thing with Bryce Harper, who has the ability to block a trade and he just had his fourth kid. So those guys can’t really deal unless you convince them and maybe Bryce you say we are doing a rebuild and dont want to waste your prime.

I think you could move marsh, Bohm and Stott. I think there’s a market. Particularly Stott who’s a great fielder and had a second half resurgence. I also think the time to deal marsh is now after his last 5 months before the playoffs. For pitching could deal Sanchez. He’d bring in a haul especially with that contract but even so still need guys for the future and he is 28. Could be like wheeler where he’s still very good at 33-35.

Wheeler (if he can pass a physical) and Sanchez have massive value. Teams like Yankees or Red Sox would give you one of, if not the best prospect in their organizations for one year of Wheeler. To them, that could be the piece that gets them a WS.

And Sanchez, who has a 3 year horizon as an ace with controlled contract, really should generate elite prospect haul.

Luzardo upped his value too. He could get you a very good prospect.

That could be the future of the Phillies right there. And, sorry to get all Sam Hinkie, but dismantling the pitching staff and shedding the roster gets us a top 10 pick at worst.

Middleton will never punt on this roster. So this is an academic conversation.

2 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Wheeler (if he can pass a physical) and Sanchez have massive value. Teams like Yankees or Red Sox would give you one of, if not the best prospect in their organizations for one year of Wheeler. To them, that could be the piece that gets them a WS.

And Sanchez, who has a 3 year horizon as an ace with controlled contract, really should generate elite prospect haul.

Luzardo upped his value too. He could get you a very good prospect.

That could be the future of the Phillies right there. And, sorry to get all Sam Hinkie, but dismantling the pitching staff and shedding the roster gets us a top 10 pick at worst.

Middleton will never punt on this roster. So this is an academic conversation.

Wheeler wouldn’t get as much cause you don’t know what he’s going to be when he gets back. You are going to sell on the low because of that. If he were healthy then he’d generate the haul you think. The type of injury he had isn’t normal injury. That can be a career ender. So not likely getting what you think.

Sanchez could bring back a haul. However he’s still young enough and cheap enough that he can be your ace for the next generation and when they are ready if you do it right. Can be the Sanchez, wood and painter going forward.

Luzardo has one year left on his contract so you aren’t going to maximize his value. He’s basically a rental for a year. You’ll get prospects but not as much as if he were under contract for more than a year

27 minutes ago, Joe Shades 73 said:

So to sum up, they are screwed

I don’t necessarily think they’re screwed but they can’t do offseasons like last year otherwise they are screwed. Also need guys like painter, wood, miller and Crawford to come up and come through. If you want to blow it up you would have to convince guys that it’s better off for them to be traded so that they have a chance at winning a title. Now I think there’s some of them that it doesn’t matter as much for their legacy. For Bryce Harper, I think that’s something that matters to him. Because for his career in his legacy, he needs that World Series. Someone like Aaron Nola it’s not making or breaking his legacy. Tbh wheeler it would help his legacy but he’s retiring after his contract is up and i really don’t think he and his wife want to leave Philly.

Maybe I’m foolish, but I don’t think this team after that series against the Dodgers is as far away as everybody thinks. Do they have flaws? 100%. Are they as good as the Dodgers? No. But if you watch the rest of the Dodgers run through this playoffs, I will bet not one team is going to keep that lineup to what the Phillies did and played them as close as they did every single game. I felt this way prior to the playoffs, the two best teams were the Phillies and the Dodgers. How much of a gap was there? That was going to play itself out on the baseball field.

I know we are all irritated with the Phillies, but Phillies played the team who’s spent the most and acquired most talent (tanner scott isn’t used and he was an all star in 2024). I actually think the Phillies can beat them but can’t do what they did last offseason or just sign back bader, schwarber and realmuto and say well if we had bader we’d win. They actually have to recognize the need a cleanup hitter and besides Duran redo the entire pen.

That said if you’re gonna catch and you’re gonna beat them, then you need to spend the money. You’re not gonna catch them trying to get Romero for $10 million and he’s just gonna magically be what he was three years ago. Whether the Dodgers win the World Series this year or don’t win the World Series this year, they’re gonna go out and spend money. Because they found a loophole in the system that’s currently in there which is probably going away after 2026, so they’re gonna add.

Which means you better make a decision that you’re actually willing to spend and not try bargain shopping. To me only way this team (knowing the dodgers are going to spend money this offseason) gets better and beats the dodgers is if they get 2-3 legit BP arms, signs a cleanup hitter (Tucker or Bellinger as can replace Castellanos in RF or move Harper back to OF and Alonso is 1b) and brings back schwarber. At catcher got to either bring back realmuto or make a deal for someone like rutschman.

Phillies numbers were .212/.290/.399/689

Since game 2 of nlcs 2023 Phillies have hit .199 and a .626 OPS. Scored 3 or less in 9 of those 13 games. 0-9. Avg 3.2 runs

Dodgers walked less and struck out more. Only the 2014 giants had worse OPS and won a series.

Came from zolecki. Really laminates just how good the Phillies pitching was, but also just how bad the Phillies hitting was. And yet somehow the Dodgers were worse and managed to win. Which goes towards the Phillies have an issue with fundamentals. We talk about this during the season. Stuff like they haven’t had good base running since Gabe Kapler was here. Their fielding is still below average. These things came into play in this series and cost you. Where the Dodgers it didn’t.

2 hours ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I don’t necessarily think they’re screwed but they can’t do offseasons like last year otherwise they are screwed. Also need guys like painter, wood, miller and Crawford to come up and come through. If you want to blow it up you would have to convince guys that it’s better off for them to be traded so that they have a chance at winning a title. Now I think there’s some of them that it doesn’t matter as much for their legacy. For Bryce Harper, I think that’s something that matters to him. Because for his career in his legacy, he needs that World Series. Someone like Aaron Nola it’s not making or breaking his legacy. Tbh wheeler it would help his legacy but he’s retiring after his contract is up and i really don’t think he and his wife want to leave Philly.

Maybe I’m foolish, but I don’t think this team after that series against the Dodgers is as far away as everybody thinks. Do they have flaws? 100%. Are they as good as the Dodgers? No. But if you watch the rest of the Dodgers run through this playoffs, I will bet not one team is going to keep that lineup to what the Phillies did and played them as close as they did every single game. I felt this way prior to the playoffs, the two best teams were the Phillies and the Dodgers. How much of a gap was there? That was going to play itself out on the baseball field.

I know we are all irritated with the Phillies, but Phillies played the team who’s spent the most and acquired most talent (tanner scott isn’t used and he was an all star in 2024). I actually think the Phillies can beat them but can’t do what they did last offseason or just sign back bader, schwarber and realmuto and say well if we had bader we’d win. They actually have to recognize the need a cleanup hitter and besides Duran redo the entire pen.

That said if you’re gonna catch and you’re gonna beat them, then you need to spend the money. You’re not gonna catch them trying to get Romero for $10 million and he’s just gonna magically be what he was three years ago. Whether the Dodgers win the World Series this year or don’t win the World Series this year, they’re gonna go out and spend money. Because they found a loophole in the system that’s currently in there which is probably going away after 2026, so they’re gonna add.

Which means you better make a decision that you’re actually willing to spend and not try bargain shopping. To me only way this team (knowing the dodgers are going to spend money this offseason) gets better and beats the dodgers is if they get 2-3 legit BP arms, signs a cleanup hitter (Tucker or Bellinger as can replace Castellanos in RF or move Harper back to OF and Alonso is 1b) and brings back schwarber. At catcher got to either bring back realmuto or make a deal for someone like rutschman.

They are going to need 3/4/5 hitters in 2 years. I doubt it, but let’s pretend one of them is Miller. That means they need to open the check book for 2 high end hitters.

4 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

They are going to need 3/4/5 hitters in 2 years. I doubt it, but let’s pretend one of them is Miller. That means they need to open the check book for 2 high end hitters.

Get one this year means you only need 1 in that scenario. Hypothetically you get Kyle Tucker. He’s 28. so entering his prime the next 4-5. In 2-3 years you are likely clearing some money with wheeler retiring and new cba coming in and can sign another. Can also trade with another team. Tbh if you have Sanchez, luzardo, wood and painter (assuming those guys pan out) then really the bulk of your work going forward done with the rotation so it is developing everyday hitters and signing/trading for lineup. If painter and wood pan out most teams would kill to have a rotation of those 4 in their primes.

13 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Get one this year means you only need 1 in that scenario. Hypothetically you get Kyle Tucker. He’s 28. so entering his prime the next 4-5. In 2-3 years you are likely clearing some money with wheeler retiring and new cba coming in and can sign another. Can also trade with another team. Tbh if you have Sanchez, luzardo, wood and painter (assuming those guys pan out) then really the bulk of your work going forward done with the rotation so it is developing everyday hitters and signing/trading for lineup. If painter and wood pan out most teams would kill to have a rotation of those 4 in their primes.

Can they / will they spend the money to buy two middle of the lineup bats while they are wrapped into the Harper/Turner contracts and they get forced into a Schwarber extension?

I think that answer is unquestionably no.

So that’s why I feel they need to just take 2-3 years, tank, and get all these guys off the books.

If they could or would spend that money, then I’d be all for adding to the current roster.

Just now, eagle45 said:

Can they / will they spend the money to buy two middle of the lineup bats while they are wrapped into the Harper/Turner contracts and they get forced into a Schwarber extension?

I think that answer is unquestionably no.

So that’s why I feel they need to just take 2-3 years, tank, and get all these guys off the books.

If they could or would spend that money, then I’d be all for adding to the current roster.

see I don’t think it’s unquestionably no. I think last year they thought the Mets run was a fluke and that they were good enough to win. They actually believe the BS of what they said after that series. Castellanos and Walker come off the books after next year and wheeler has 2 years left. So they have money coming off to spend l even if they retain luzardo, schwarber and Jt especially if Crawford and miller pan out.

The difference with losing this year as compared to last year, the Dodgers are the best team. Kind of a barometer of where you are and what you need to do to get to where they are. You are going to have to go through the Dodgers the next two or three years if you wanna win a World Series. They are gonna go out there and keep spending to improve. Maybe Middleton say F this i don’t want to compete with that. But tbh i don’t think after seeing how close they were to the dodgers that he is going to be frugal this year. I’d be surprised.

So if you’re gonna bring back Kyle Schwarber, Jt and bader that’s not gonna be enough. I think they know that. The Dodgers are gonna add to what core they have and be even better. Surprising their average age is actually older than the Phillies. imo i think there’s going to be another move besides the schwarber, jt and bader deals. I don’t think it’s Alonso or Tucker. I actually think it might be a trade to acquire that type of bat.

I have been of the belief since 2023, that this lineup is missing one big bat behind Schwarber and Harper. They lost Hoskins. It’s not that Hopkins was the greatest player to ever play. But he gave more protection. He also saw a lot of pitches. And he could hit 25 to 30 home runs, which is something this team badly needs. I’m not saying go get Rhys. It’s not what I’m saying. But if you had a better cleanup hitter that has pop, you might see less pressure on Bryce Harper hitting in front of him. I thought it was very telling in game two in the sixth inning where Bryce saw six pitches. five of them were not in the zone. He went chasing because he was pressing and didn’t trust Bohm, who is batting behind him to get the job done. I think there’s a chance you see guys like Schwarber and Harper not chasing as much and taking more walks in the playoffs if they knew a guy like Pete Alonso was batting behind him with a chance to hit a three run homer because they didn’t want to pitch to Harper. Whereas Alec Bohm, you’re just hoping he gets a single.

Feels like amaro knows something. It has to be them moving either nola or turner. Frankly I’d prefer nola. Tbh i could als see a team believing they can get nola back to be a top end of the rotation. Issue is convincing him to accept a trade which depending on where you are dealing him then i think could convince him

4 hours ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Feels like amaro knows something. It has to be them moving either nola or turner. Frankly I’d prefer nola. Tbh i could als see a team believing they can get nola back to be a top end of the rotation. Issue is convincing him to accept a trade which depending on where you are dealing him then i think could convince him

He has no clue, just shoveling crap out there

2 hours ago, Joe Shades 73 said:

He has no clue, just shoveling crap out there

Probably. but he was pretty accurate at the deadline about getting that type of RP. I believe he also said last year after it ended he didn’t think they’d make big changes.

So its been a few days now so a little perspective is starting to settle in. This one is a tough one but the '93 Carter HR moment was a lot more difficult for me.

It would be interesting to hear what the rest of you think. I had a LOT more personal capital invested in the '93 team so that's probably a very big reason why that one was/is more difficult for me. I think the cumulative effect of several years is what makes this one so hard plus the realization that this was probably the last chance with this makeup of players.

Can we even project Bryce Harper as a big bat in 2026?

He’s got such a steady relentless decline. Hes probably going to be .255/25 at best next year.

Probably a safe bet that Treas average starts slipping more into the .280/.275 range with a slow power outage into the low teens with HR.

And sooner rather than later, JT is going to be too beaten up to have that late surge that made everyone remember he’s a respectable hitter.

The whole lineup is eroding year over year and I think they lack the prospects to replenish it and the cash to buy their way back into it. I just don’t think the resources exist for them to make 1+1=3 here.

28 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Can we even project Bryce Harper as a big bat in 2026?

He’s got such a steady relentless decline. Hes probably going to be .255/25 at best next year.

Probably a safe bet that Treas average starts slipping more into the .280/.275 range with a slow power outage into the low teens with HR.

And sooner rather than later, JT is going to be too beaten up to have that late surge that made everyone remember he’s a respectable hitter.

The whole lineup is eroding year over year and I think they lack the prospects to replenish it and the cash to buy their way back into it. I just don’t think the resources exist for them to make 1+1=3 here.

I could be wrong but I don't think Bryce's decline is that severe compared to where his contract will be. He missed 30 games this year and still put up 27 HR, 75 RBI. Avg was down a bit at 261. He's making 27M the next 2 years then 23M after that so as salaries increase across the league each year, its not horrible. I really think getting a cleanup hitter behind him would help him a lot and some adjustments so he's not always trying to blow the game open with a HR swing could help his avg and reduce chance for injury. Easier said than done to change a hitter at this age but he's certainly capable. For this roster at this time, he's not my biggest concern. If he gets 30+ HR and OBP back up to 370+ in the 3 hole that's fine with me. Not sure what your definition of a big bat is.