EMB Blog: 2023 Camps and Preseason - NO POLITICS

[Alphagrand]

2 minutes ago, Sack that QB said:

A lot of people will pick Watson because ESP rubs them the wrong way.

 

[Sack that QB]

7 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

This has the play that HE and I commented on in-game. Tremendous range by Brown. 

The rub on him coming out of college was he’s a great athlete but isn’t fluid enough to cover guys. The Eagles said at the Senior Bowl he showed the ability to cover one on one and they think he has that kinda potential. I hope to see in the preseason what he looks like if he’s singled up on a WR or TE deep one on one. I have no questions about his range or closing speed he’s an insane athlete.

[mattwill]

2 hours ago, RunItBAck said:

Let's see your rankings of top 5 HC all-time, I need a good laugh

1. Vince Lombardi

2. Bear Bryant

3. Paul Brown

4. BB

5 Bill Walsh

Parcells, Landry, Shula, Halas, Jimmy Johnson, Noll, Gibbs all get consideration

[FranklinFldEBUpper]

2 minutes ago, mattwill said:

1. Vice Lombardi

2. Bear Bryant

3. Paul Brown

4. BB

5 Bill Walsh

Parcells, Landry, Shula, Halas, Jimmy Johnson all get consideration

Dunno how anyone could have Jimmy Johnson ahead of Andy Reid. 

[mattwill]

4 minutes ago, FranklinFldEBUpper said:

Dunno how anyone could have Jimmy Johnson ahead of Andy Reid. 

I lived in Dallas from 1989 through 1996.  Went to the Troy Aikman sack-fest game at Cowboys Stadium.  How Jimmy turned that team around was a work of art.  The trade he swung for the boatload of draft picks was probably the best trade in the history of the NFL.  He then took all those parts and molded them into a team.  He saw the diamond in the rough that Leon Lett was and polished that diamond.  And he did that all with both of his hands tied behind his back (having JJ as the owner). FWIW, JJ lived four doors down Armstrong Avenue from our house.

[Alphagrand]

Only rating head coaches I've seen personally since about 1975, and sticking to the pro level -- skippy could win national titles coaching at Alabama:

 

1.  Joe Gibbs

2.  Andy Reid

3.  Don Shula

4.  Bill Belichick

5.  Chuck Noll

 

Gonna have to exclude Bill Walsh because of zero people skills, Parcells for being an overrated gas bag (he's lucky Norwood missed that kick -- Marv Levy was the better coach), and Jimmy Johnson because I thought Landry was better. 

 

[Iggles_Phan]

38 minutes ago, mattwill said:

I lived in Dallas from 1989 through 1996.  Went to the Troy Aikman sack-fest game at Cowboys Stadium.  How Jimmy turned that team around was a work of art.  The trade he swung for the boatload of draft picks was probably the best trade in the history of the NFL.  He then took all those parts and molded them into a team.  He saw the diamond in the rough that Leon Lett was and polished that diamond.  And he did that all with both of his hands tied behind his back (having JJ as the owner). FWIW, JJ lived four doors down Armstrong Avenue from our house.

Nah.  He proved what it really came down to was the draft picks he swindled from the Vikings.  When he went to Miami, he couldn't do it again.  Meanwhile, Andy went on to recreate and more what he did in Philly.  A seven year span with the exact same core doesn't move the needle for me past a guy that has a longer tenure and does it with multiple cores.

[austinfan]

1 hour ago, Connecticut Eagle said:

IMO, Walsh gets a lot of points as being the great innovator, rather than being a 'leader of men'.  In the latter category, you'll find folks like Halas, Lombardi, Shula, and Parcells.  In today's game its Harbaugh and Tomlin. 

Andy is both.  He's been defining the modern passing offense while leading teams for long tenures.

Further, on the innovator point, that is why you see hot coordinators flame out.  Head coaching is a very different skill set from game planning.

Walsh had a great ten year run, revolutionized offensive football, and has a coaching "forest."

The one thing to hold against him was his short tenure, partially b/c he had to wait to get a shot as a HC.

[rrfierce]

43 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

This has the play that HE and I commented on in-game. Tremendous range by Brown. 

He is really fast and seems to have a good ability to read the game , flies about, just hope he doesn’t injure himself before the season starts. Obviously very mean to impress - he made more plays in one game than kvon has made in his entire eagles career 

[mattwill]

21 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Nah.  He proved what it really came down to was the draft picks he swindled from the Vikings.  When he went to Miami, he couldn't do it again.  Meanwhile, Andy went on to recreate and more what he did in Philly.  A seven year span with the exact same cores doesn't move the needle for me past a guy that has a longer tenure and does it with multiple cores.

Fair enough.

[Aerolithe_Lion]

Moss should have been the second best WR ever, but I believe Harrison had a better career

[Iggles_Phan]

4 minutes ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

Moss should have been the second best WR ever, but I believe Harrison had a better career

If Calvin Johnson had a career the length of some of these others, 14+ years, I think it would be easy to put him at #2.

[FranklinFldEBUpper]

41 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Nah.  He proved what it really came down to was the draft picks he swindled from the Vikings.  When he went to Miami, he couldn't do it again.  Meanwhile, Andy went on to recreate and more what he did in Philly.  A seven year span with the exact same core doesn't move the needle for me past a guy that has a longer tenure and does it with multiple cores.

I was very close to someone (RIP) who knew Giants GM George Young very well. He told me that George wasn't especially impressed with the Cowboys front office. Basically he said that all they did was pick guys from colleges they had coached at and had friends working at. And since the Vikings had been so stupid to trade them all those picks, they couldn't help but end up with good players. But he thought their scouting wasn't that good. Basically they lucked into it it all because of Herschel Walker (and having Troy Aikman fall into their lap the minute they walked in the door). Perhaps a bit of envy on his part, but that's the story I heard.

Oh...and FTC.

[Iggles_Phan]

2 minutes ago, FranklinFldEBUpper said:

I was very close to someone (RIP) who knew Giants GM George Young very well. He told me that George wasn't especially impressed with the Cowboys front office. Basically he said that all they did was pick guys from colleges they had coached at and had friends working at. And since the Vikings had been so stupid to trade them all those picks, they couldn't help but end up with good players. But he thought their scouting wasn't that good. Basically they lucked into it it all because of Herschel Walker (and having Troy Aikman fall into their lap the minute they walked in the door). Perhaps a bit of envy on his part, but that's the story I heard.

Oh...and FTC.

Yeah, I've heard similar.   Johnson drafted a bunch of Miami players, including Steve Walsh!!!  So the sustainability fell off and the chance to recreate at Miami was impossible.

[Aerolithe_Lion]

15 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

If Calvin Johnson had a career the length of some of these others, 14+ years, I think it would be easy to put him at #2.

Jamar Chase just gave his WR Mt RusHmore and it was the dumbest crap I’ve ever heard, so I was trying to come up with mine

Rice, Harrison Moss, Hutson was my initial thought

But Hutson played during segregation so was he really comparably dominant if all the corners were white? Megatron then I think is my fourth 

[Sack that QB]

Rice, TO, Moss are the clear top 3 for me. Harrison, Julio, Calvin, Fitzgerald in some order follow them for me. Justin Jefferson well on his way. Chase could be too.

[Iggles_Phan]

12 minutes ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

Jamar Chase just gave his WR Mt RusHmore and it was the dumbest crap I’ve ever heard, so I was trying to come up with mine

Rice, Harrison Moss, Hutson was my initial thought

But Hutson played during segregation so was he really comparably dominant if all the corners were white? Megatron then I think is my fourth 

I put forward the idea that there should be different era rankings... I named "Founders" (pre-merger with AFL) and "Modern", possibly need a 3rd for more recent rule changes somewhere around 2005 or so where they started to call the 5 yard chuck area more, and passing stats started to explode.

Hutson would clearly be in the Founders era.  

[Iggles_Phan]

19 minutes ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

Jamar Chase just gave his WR Mt RusHmore and it was the dumbest crap I’ve ever heard, so I was trying to come up with mine

Rice, Harrison Moss, Hutson was my initial thought

But Hutson played during segregation so was he really comparably dominant if all the corners were white? Megatron then I think is my fourth 

Wow.  I had to look it up.  He's got Cooper Kupp on that list.     Oh, and then there's also Antonio Brown.  If Brown could have held his mental health together, he might have been able to work his way up that far, but as it turned out... no.   Not sure Brown even qualifies for HoF, let alone for Mt. Rushmore.  

I can agree with him on Rice and Johnson... but those other two.  Just brutal.

[Aerolithe_Lion]

36 minutes ago, Sack that QB said:

Rice, TO, Moss are the clear top 3 for me. Harrison, Julio, Calvin, Fitzgerald in some order follow them for me. Justin Jefferson well on his way. Chase could be too.

Owens is a tough one for me. He was an alltime great player, but never really had that period where he was quite as dominant as the other players named. I put him into a grouping with Larry Fitzgerald and Isaac Bruce in that respect. They all benefited a lot from what I call "baseball stats”. 
 

In baseball, if you hit 500 home runs over the course of your career, you’re going to be known as an alltime power hitter, and almost assuredly going into the hall of fame. It doesn’t matter if you never hit 30 HRs in a season. 20 years of 25 hrs, you hit 500 total, and will be remembered with guys like Eddie Murray, Albert Bell, Manny Ramirez… even though you weren’t close to as good a slugger. 3000 hits, same thing. Craig Biggio drags out his career so he can crawl across the 3000 hit mark, and suddenly he goes from decent player to HoF contact hitter.

Terrell Owens never led the league in receiving. Not once. Terrell Owens never led the league in catches. Once thing that really separates the greatest WRs are the 1500 yard seasons. Those are special. Terrell Owens is unfamiliar with what a 1500 yard season feels like. In fact, he only ever had 2 1400 yard seasons. That’s it, seriously. He had a ton of 1100 and 1200 yard seasons that added up. Was that a Mt Rushmore alltime season AJ Brown had? It was fantastic, but not really of that echelon, no. But it was more yards than TO has ever had. TO was known as a guy who’d go through the middle and gobble up catches like mad, but the dude had one career 100 catch season.
 

Now imagine if he got injured and retired at 33…  ended up like 12th on the alltime receiving list. Would we think of him as a Mt Rushmore WR? He wouldn’t be close. The best thing TO has going for him is baseball stats. IMO they don’t translate as well to football. Marvin Harrison from 1999-2006 averaged 100+ catches, 1400+ yards, and 13 TDs. 8 consecutive years. That’s unbelievable. But TO has more hype because he played until he was old as dirt so his stat totals were ballooned. Does that make him better? Marvin Harrison played his entire college career before joining the NFL at 24. Does that make him a worse receiver because it hurts his baseball stats?

[Cliftoma]

https://dailysnark.com/2023/08/16/multiple-fights-break-out-at-cowboys-training-camp-after-micah-parsons-punches-teammate/?fbclid=IwAR1K8-dv742p3b-sEAcE2xAGhYpuF3nPlhbZnHtP29f2h1s4hLAvNKntvs0

Things are going well at Cowboy 🤡 camp 🤣

[McMVP]

48 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I put forward the idea that there should be different era rankings... I named "Founders" (pre-merger with AFL) and "Modern", possibly need a 3rd for more recent rule changes somewhere around 2005 or so where they started to call the 5 yard chuck area more, and passing stats started to explode.

Hutson would clearly be in the Founders era.  

For sure - the eras should be viewed through different lenses - for almost all positions.

[RememberTheKoy]

1 hour ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

Owens is a tough one for me. He was an alltime great player, but never really had that period where he was quite as dominant as the other players named. I put him into a grouping with Larry Fitzgerald and Isaac Bruce in that respect. They all benefited a lot from what I call "baseball stats”. 
 

In baseball, if you hit 500 home runs over the course of your career, you’re going to be known as an alltime power hitter, and almost assuredly going into the hall of fame. It doesn’t matter if you never hit 30 HRs in a season. 20 years of 25 hrs, you hit 500 total, and will be remembered with guys like Eddie Murray, Albert Bell, Manny Ramirez… even though you weren’t close to as good a slugger. 3000 hits, same thing. Craig Biggio drags out his career so he can crawl across the 3000 hit mark, and suddenly he goes from decent player to HoF contact hitter.

Terrell Owens never led the league in receiving. Not once. Terrell Owens never led the league in catches. Once thing that really separates the greatest WRs are the 1500 yard seasons. Those are special. Terrell Owens is unfamiliar with what a 1500 yard season feels like. In fact, he only ever had 2 1400 yard seasons. That’s it, seriously. He had a ton of 1100 and 1200 yard seasons that added up. Was that a Mt Rushmore alltime season AJ Brown had? It was fantastic, but not really of that echelon, no. But it was more yards than TO has ever had. TO was known as a guy who’d go through the middle and gobble up catches like mad, but the dude had one career 100 catch season.
 

Now imagine if he got injured and retired at 33…  ended up like 12th on the alltime receiving list. Would we think of him as a Mt Rushmore WR? He wouldn’t be close. The best thing TO has going for him is baseball stats. IMO they don’t translate as well to football. Marvin Harrison from 1999-2006 averaged 100+ catches, 1400+ yards, and 13 TDs. 8 consecutive years. That’s unbelievable. But TO has more hype because he played until he was old as dirt so his stat totals were ballooned. Does that make him better? Marvin Harrison played his entire college career before joining the NFL at 24. Does that make him a worse receiver because it hurts his baseball stats?

 

What an absolutely ridiculous post.  Honest to god one of the most nonsensical posts I've ever seen on this message board.

TO had 153 receiving TDs.  3rd most all time.  The next closest player is 23 TDs away and longggg since retired.  You talk about receiving yards as if they are more valuable than scoring TDs.  Also on that note he is 3rd most receiving yards of all time.  One of the most dominant careers ever at WR.  Besides the first 3 years of his career with Steve Young, when Terrell Owens didn't even really come into his own until his 3rd season, he never again played with a truly great QB yet no matter where he went and no matter who was throwing to him, he dominated.  

You talk of him like he was some possession WR.  "TO was known as a guy who’d go through the middle and gobble up catches like mad"  What are you talking about?  TO was known as a guy who could score from anywhere on the field while he averaged 14.8 YPR for his entire career and was as lethal as any player when going deep.

 

"Now imagine if he got injured and retired at 33…  ended up like 12th on the alltime receiving list."

If Terrell Owens retired at 33 he still would have been at that point after the 2006 season 4th all time in receiving TDs. Since at that point it would have been Rice 197, Chris Carter 130, Marvin Harrison with 122 at that point and then TO would be retired at 33 with 111 receiving touchdowns.   But TO didn't retire and instead he kept on playing at a high level again no matter who was throwing him the ball or how bad of a team he was playing on.  

 

Now imagine if Reid didn't suspend TO after 7 games in the 2005 season, how much better Owen's career stats would look then.  We all remember how great he was in 2004, the best WR in football, in just 14 games because of Roy Williams (well really just 13 games and a quarter or two). 2005 he was having an even better season.  In 7 games in 2005 he had 47 receptions for 763 yards (16.2 YPR) for 6 TDs.  That plays out in a full season to 107 receptions, 1,744 yards and 14 TDs.  

 

"never really had that period where he was quite as dominant as the other players named"

Didn't have that period?  What the hell do you call 2000-2008? 

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

10 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

What an absolutely ridiculous post.  Honest to god one of the most nonsensical posts I've ever seen on this message board.

TO had 153 receiving TDs.  3rd most all time.  The next closest player is 23 TDs away and longggg since retired. 

 

Hey look, in defense you jump to another baseball stat. This is my shocked face

 

2000-2008 he averaged 81 catches for 1200 yards and 12 TDs. It was great, but it wasn’t Marvin Harrison great.

[RememberTheKoy]

Just now, Aerolithe_Lion said:

Hey look, in defense you jump to another baseball stat. This is my shocked face

 

It's not a baseball stat, it's the most important stat for offense in football.  By your logic you'd have to think someone like Andre Johnson was better than Terrell Owens.  A mind blowingly bad opinion on WRs.  

[Aerolithe_Lion]

Just now, RememberTheKoy said:

 

It's not a baseball stat, it's the most important stat for offense in football.  By your logic you'd have to think someone like Andre Johnson was better than Terrell Owens.  A mind blowingly bad opinion on WRs.  

And by your logic you’d have Dez Bryant greater than Michael Irvin, which makes no sense but that’s what happens when you remove all context to fawn over an accumulation stat.