50 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Making plays with their feet is completely different from what I am talking about.   I am talking about not making the QB a part of the running game as part of the scheme.  What Young did was improv when the play broke down, not the design of the play.  Steve Young had 722 carries over a 17 year career.   Jalen Hurts has 524 carries in 4 seasons.  Hurts will pass Young in carries midway through the 2025 season at the current rate he is running the ball.  Apples and oranges.   There's no comparison.  The SF 49ers offense with Young was not designed in any way shape or form about his ability to run the ball.   That was an added benefit when things broke down.  The Eagles need to make that the plan for Hurts.

524 carries in 51 career starts.  10+ carries a game.   That's an insanely high rate.  How high?   Steve Young's 722 carries was over 143 starts... that's 5 carries a game.    

 

And yes, Cam Newton's running impacted his throwing.  He took a beating on his shoulders while running the ball.    His career absolutely ended because he literally couldn't physically throw the ball anymore, because of the beating on his shoulders over the course of his brief career.   But, sure, go ahead and try to deny the reality of what happened to his career.   He can be a poor student of the game AND be physically beaten up to the point of ineffectiveness.   It doesn't have to be one or the other.   His throws lost all their zip by the age of 29.

 

We aren't going to change each other's minds...  but just watch and you will see Lamar Jackson's body break down and he will fall off, likely around the age of 30... if not sooner.  And if the Eagles don't change the philosophy of the offense (gee, I wonder why they'd hire an OC who isn't known for using the QB as a primary ball carrier), then Hurts' career time line will also tail off and expire roughly around the age of 30.  

I don't prefer the old school passer because I have my head in the sand.   The QB gets protections in the pocket he doesn't get when running.  The game is officiated to benefit the passing game.   The salary structure is designed around the passing game.   The entire goal of the NFL is the passing game.  The 'dual threat' QB is what NFL offenses lean on when they don't have a legit passer at QB.  And what we've seen is that it sizzles early and then fizzles out.   

 

I don't want to force Hurts to be just a passer.   I want to see the Eagles have sustained success.   And the only way to do that is with the QB being a passer, not a runner.   If he has to escape the pocket from time to time... great.  Do it.  That's been a hallmark of a Philadelphia Eagles QB going back to Randall Cunningham.  But, let's eliminate the QB sweep, the over reliance on the QB draw, etc., etc. 

Steve young had an additional 135 carries for 883 yards (9TDs) in the USFL. You seemingly added his 2 USFL seasons to his career (17 seasons), but left out his stats. 

 

Cam Newton looked fine (physically) throwing the ball even after all those injuries. Unfortunately for him, the consistency was not so good which is why he didn't stick. It wasn't because he turned into a noodle-arm like you make it seem. He just wasn't consistently good enough.

 

When your predictions about Jackson and Hurts turn into facts, get back to me. But using them as examples to prove your point as of right now is meaningless. No, Young and Elway weren't used the same way. Neither was Cunningham. But some of the most devastating QB injuries have happened to players while they were passing, but the narrative always pretends it's the running that will get them killed. 

A player can get hurt on any play:

Your best bet is to move the football, score, keep doing that, build a lead and get off the field early. Whether that takes running or passing to accomplish makes no difference. 

9 hours ago, eggs said:

Yeah - me too, but training camp and pre season may decide that one. 

My favorite thing about this is your name is "eggs” 🤣

9 hours ago, paco said:

Unless Dak is a top 5 QB by our standards this year, I see the Cowboys moving on TBH. 

My feeling is the decision has been made already unless something drastically changes like a SB win.  They took a big cap hit this year with Dak that they could done a Howie with, and their cap is hellish. They need a rookie QB. 

After all, the Eagles have been to the SB twice while Dak has been the QB of the Cowboys and they've won 1 playoff game in that time with a division containing the Commies and Gints

9 hours ago, Miami said:

That was my reaction.  Saw the numbers and just said the QB position has gone el loco.  Even Hurts.  No way are these guys worth it.

Yup. It's crazy that as the cap goes up the QBs are the ones getting the lions share of that money even if they're average. I get it, it's the most important position but at what point does a team finally use sense and not give a team crippling contract to a top 15 QB

13 hours ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

Brady with the nonchalant dig at Dak

Thank the football gods for the mute button.  I will probably listen to see if he is  more Romo or Aiken.  I don’t expect even Olson level from him. 

Why anyone would pay all that money for Brady as a color guy is beyond me, he's just not a likeable personality.

 

As far as running QBs, we saw how the RPO distorts the offense and that defenses figured out how to stop it - it's essentially a trick play, not a foundation of a sustainable offense.

QBs who can pass out of the pocket are a nightmare if they can run, b/c it forces the defense to "mush rush" or risk a big gain, especially in man defense.

QB draws once or twice a game can also slow a rush. And the tush push seems pretty safe.

But I don't want my QB to be a running back, running backs are fungible, QBs are close to irreplaceable.

I didn’t even know they signed claypool. They are now doomed 

13 hours ago, austinfan said:

I don't see defense as having "starters" like the OL, in fact, when you have to play guys 800+ snaps, that's a detriment in your front seven.

Rather you have maybe a half dozen packages, and players have roles in some or all, depending on their talent package and ability to master the defense.

Hunt and Smith have the athleticism to drop into coverage, maybe Baun as well. Don't know about Okwara. Burks might move outside at times.

Sweat and Huff are rush ends, whether you call them DEs or OLBs.

Davis and Tuipulotu are the NTs, Tuipulotu will have to convince Howie he doesn't need to bring in a veteran NT.

Carter, Ojoma, Hall and Booker have the length for 3-4 DE, Williams is more of a 4-3 DT, but can compensate for short arms with quickness at 3-4 DE.

Carter, Williams and Graham are the best 2-5 pass rushing DTs.

Sweat was significantly more athletic than Hunt at their respective predraft workouts. Hell Sweat had the speed and agility that match most SSs. 

22 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

Sweat was significantly more athletic than Hunt at their respective predraft workouts. Hell Sweat had the speed and agility that match most SSs. 

Dropping into coverage is both athleticism and instincts, and probably comfort in space. Sweat is probably more comfortable moving forward than backing into coverage.

He's never shown LB skills, he's a pure pass rush DE.

It's not just getting to a spot quickly, it's having the feel for the passing game so you can read QB eyes and anticipate routes through your area.

27 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I didn’t even know they signed claypool. They are now doomed 

Kincaid is going to be a great fantasy player for them - he will be their slot WR at the rate

7 minutes ago, Texas Eagle said:

Kincaid is going to be a great fantasy player for them - he will be their slot WR at the rate

Ray Davis is a sleeper too. That guy can grind it out. Went the very next pick after we took Shipley. I'm hoping it isn't something we are talking about later that was a big miss. 

8 hours ago, brkmsn said:

When your predictions about Jackson and Hurts turn into facts, get back to me. But using them as examples to prove your point as of right now is meaningless. No, Young and Elway weren't used the same way. Neither was Cunningham. But some of the most devastating QB injuries have happened to players while they were passing, but the narrative always pretends it's the running that will get them killed. 

A player can get hurt on any play:

It's not an issue of whether a QB is a pocket passer or a dual threat player.  The issue is holding the ball.  Defensive players will punish the ball carrier, even in this era of reduced contact intensity.  Luck was repeatedly injured and retired early because he held the ball in the pocket.  Same is true for Burrow and Wentz.  

Lamar Jackson and Hurts have both been slowed by injuries repeatedly during their careers to this point.  Vick wore down from injuries, Newton wore down from injuries, so did McNabb.

The safest bet to enjoy a long career at QB with minimal injuries is get the ball out quickly.  A QB who is a distributor-first will be at much lower risk of injury.  Neither Jackson nor Hurts get the ball out quickly to other play makers, so they will continue to battle injuries.      

1 hour ago, austinfan said:

As far as running QBs, we saw how the RPO distorts the offense and that defenses figured out how to stop it - it's essentially a trick play, not a foundation of a sustainable offense.

First, you're confusing read-option runs with run-pass option plays. Second, it's no more a "trick play" than a conventional play-action pass. The only difference is that the QB never turns his back to the defense, and has to make a throw quicker to avoid an ineligible lineman downfield flag.

26 minutes ago, greendestiny27 said:

Ray Davis is a sleeper too. That guy can grind it out. Went the very next pick after we took Shipley. I'm hoping it isn't something we are talking about later that was a big miss. 

Ray Davis will be 25 2-3 months into the season.  Shipley isn't even 22 yet.  Be interesting to see how they both pan out

1 hour ago, austinfan said:

But I don't want my QB to be a running back, running backs are fungible,

Somebody should've told your boy Howie that before he inked a RB to a $37M contract.

1 hour ago, BigEFly said:

Sweat was significantly more athletic than Hunt at their respective predraft workouts. Hell Sweat had the speed and agility that match most SSs. 

Yeah his first step was the quickest I've ever seen from a day 3 pick.

I'm really hoping for variety and creativity in the offense to keep things from getting stale and predictable.

4 minutes ago, NOTW said:

I'm really hoping for variety and creativity in the offense to keep things from getting stale and predictable.

From what I've read and heard, the 2022 offense wasn't very diverse.  It was just that Steichen had a really good feel for play calling. 

In 2023 it looked very stale and predictable because a) we didn't have Steichen and b) defenses figured out how to defend our zone-read.  And we were still 10th in offensive DVOA.

With the talent we have, it won't take much change to get into the top five.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Sack that QB said:

 

Don’t we already know eagles packers on Friday?

50 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

It's not an issue of whether a QB is a pocket passer or a dual threat player.  The issue is holding the ball.  Defensive players will punish the ball carrier, even in this era of reduced contact intensity.  Luck was repeatedly injured and retired early because he held the ball in the pocket.  Same is true for Burrow and Wentz.  

Lamar Jackson and Hurts have both been slowed by injuries repeatedly during their careers to this point.  Vick wore down from injuries, Newton wore down from injuries, so did McNabb.

The safest bet to enjoy a long career at QB with minimal injuries is get the ball out quickly.  A QB who is a distributor-first will be at much lower risk of injury.  Neither Jackson nor Hurts get the ball out quickly to other play makers, so they will continue to battle injuries.      

Much of that is the OC. To get the ball out quickly, you have to have plays designed to get targets open quickly, and the players who can execute.

They should have thrown more to Swift last year, hopefully they will to Barkley this year.

They need a slot WR, hopefully Smith is that guy, and a TE2 who can catch and get open underneath.

Calling everyone go deep is how you get your QB killed. You have to have an outlet target, and something harder to defend than having a RB go shallow and stand there.

27 minutes ago, Connecticut Eagle said:

From what I've read and heard, the 2022 offense wasn't very diverse.  It was just that Steichen had a really good feel for play calling. 

In 2023 it looked very stale and predictable because a) we didn't have Steichen and b) defenses figured out how to defend our zone-read.  And we were still 10th in offensive DVOA.

With the talent we have, it won't take much change to get into the top five.

 

I think they would have struggled even if Steichen stayed, the 2022 offense was a bit like Chip's first season, not enough film for teams to prepare for it, but with an offseason, they were ready - one thing I saw last year was when they did run the RPO, teams keyed on Hurts and wanted to get their hits in, if you beat him up the 1st Q, you don't have to worry about him in the 4th Q.

Part of the problem was personnel, Watkins regressed, Stoll simply wasn't a receiver (not even Chad Lewis 5.0 but could find soft spots in zones), and for some reason they didn't the RBs as receivers on a regular basis. 

This is my day to rain on my own parade, I guess. I am very concerned about our offense. I've been sublimating that concern but evidently not today. And needless to say, it's about the offensive line.

First off, we're changing personnel at two positions. There is no way we will be as good at center. Kelce was one of the if not the best centers in the league, not just because he was the most athletic but because he was the smartest and the most experienced. Jurgens may be nearly as athletic, but the smarts and experience just can't be there...yet. Kelce was famous for his recognition of blitzes and stunts. I'm of the opinion that Hurts relied on him heavily to call out the protections. In Kelce's absence we have an inexperienced center and a QB I'm still not convinced can read that stuff competently. I'm expecting some heavy blitzing by our opponents until we prove we can handle it...if we can handle it.

And, until I see good play at RG, I'll worry about it. 

If the middle of our OL is shaky, the offense will be as well.

 

49 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

First, you're confusing read-option runs with run-pass option plays. Second, it's no more a "trick play" than a conventional play-action pass. The only difference is that the QB never turns his back to the defense, and has to make a throw quicker to avoid an ineligible lineman downfield flag.

That's what makes it a "trick play." There are limited options b/c the QB has to basically make one read and get rid of the ball quickly.

If you run it on a regular basis, teams began to pick up on the open targets (if you're running you've cut the field in half) and also took a page from Buddy Ryan, just hit the QB on every play, as a RB he's more vulnerable and gets less protection from refs.

With a conventional play action, it comes out of a standard formation, so the whole field is in play, and the OL knows its assignments.

There's a place for the read-option and run-pass option plays, it gives the defense another look, and if you only run them 5-10 times a game a defense can't key on them and they're more likely to be successful. Same reason play-action works best if you use it out of the base offense where you run 3 or 4 times for every play action gake.

 

5 minutes ago, just relax said:

This is my day to rain on my own parade, I guess. I am very concerned about our offense. I've been sublimating that concern but evidently not today. And needless to say, it's about the offensive line.

First off, we're changing personnel at two positions. There is no way we will be as good at center. Kelce was one of the if not the best centers in the league, not just because he was the most athletic but because he was the smartest and the most experienced. Jurgens may be nearly as athletic, but the smarts and experience just can't be there...yet. Kelce was famous for his recognition of blitzes and stunts. I'm of the opinion that Hurts relied on him heavily to call out the protections. In Kelce's absence we have an inexperienced center and a QB I'm still not convinced can read that stuff competently. I'm expecting some heavy blitzing by our opponents until we prove we can handle it...if we can handle it.

And, until I see good play at RG, I'll worry about it. 

If the middle of our OL is shaky, the offense will be as well.

 

I wouldn't say I'm very concerned. I think Jurgens will be quite good, the Eagles and Stout love him, so I trust them in that regard. I think they'll be a top 5 OL just maybe not on the high end of that with the changes. But I think the potential is still there if things go right for them to be the best. Wish they would've draft a RG in the draft higher though. I wanted Beebe and he went to Dallas which was annoying.