23 minutes ago, austinfan said:

He doesn't have a weak arm, that's Minshew, he has an average arm.

Can make all the throws with his feet set, but doesn't have the arm to make off platform difficult throws (neither does Mahomes for that matter, his talent is making accurate throws off platform from various arm angles). But how often does a QB actually make those throws in a game? It's nice to throw 60 yards on the fly, but it's just as effective to consistently throw 10 yards to the receiver's hands, in stride and let him rack up YAC.

Good QBs are consistently good, Favre made more "wow" throws than Montana or Brady, but which QB would you take?

This might be the first truly pro passing game Hurts has played in his life, I'll give him half a season to see if he can master Moore's scheme.

Everyone focuses on star receivers, but what makes a QB's life easy in the NFL is a scheme that gets one or two targets open every play and doesn't depend on a star beating double coverage on a regular basis. I thiink that's going to be the difference under Moore, if moving the ball means throwing to Calcaterra ten times a game, so be it.

Missing the forrest for the trees there.  There’s a reason Hurts hasn’t been in a true pro style passing offense after 3 years of elite college ball and 4 full years in the pros and it’s not coincidental bad luck.

44 minutes ago, wussbasket said:

The presented solution to replace Davis, who cant generate interior pressure, is to pay someone more money that has also shown they can't rush the passer.

The actual question is, is Ojomo able to develop enough of a pass rush to make Williams expendable?

If they wanted to extend Williams and he wanted to be here it would be done already. If I had to guess, it would be Williams or his agent probably want to test free agency given that he’s behind two high profile draft picks here. He likely can get more playing time and more money somewhere else. He feels like more of a luxury here, which the team already has quite a few luxuries at other positions. If Ojomo can develop enough to take over for him next year it would be huge. I’d also try to bring in someone else in the mid rounds of the draft. 

The Jordan Davis talk is a whole different discussion. The bigger question to me is has he done enough to warrant his 5th year option. Right now it would be about $12M for one year and they would have to exercise and fully guarantee it next offseason. 

14 hours ago, TEW said:

Everyone was slipping all game. Thats what happens when you play on a soccer specific pitch: they are intentionally designed to be slick so the soccer ball moves predictably.

That's probably the best point I have seen about the surface.  

3 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

If they wanted to extend Williams and he wanted to be here it would be done already. If I had to guess, it would be Williams or his agent probably want to test free agency given that he’s behind two high profile draft picks here. He likely can get more playing time and more money somewhere else. He feels like more of a luxury here, which the team already has quite a few luxuries at other positions. If Ojomo can develop enough to take over for him next year it would be huge. I’d also try to bring in someone else in the mid rounds of the draft. 

The Jordan Davis talk is a whole different discussion. The bigger question to me is has he done enough to warrant his 5th year option. Right now it would be about $12M for one year and they would have to exercise and fully guarantee it next offseason. 

I have a similar though. Eagles probably want to extend him as a rotational piece but Williams and his camp probably think there's a team that sees him as a starter. If Ojomo develops, you still have Booker who has been promising too, and like you said it shouldn't be too difficult to go out and find a 3rd/4th DT.

I'm not ready to declare Davis a bust yet, but this is the year he needs to show up and be consistent over the course of the season.

Jordan Davis is not going to be a box score guy.

You won't be able to measure his effectiveness that way.

They need him to be a disruptor. Consistently.

I think he can, but this is a big year for him.

So when I watched some Troy game film to get an eye on what Mitchell might offer, I noticed his roommate and best friend, Maxen Hook.  I think I mentioned him in the run up to the draft. He’s a FS/nickel type.  I could see Howie using one of his day 3 picks on him.  Dane Bugler mentioned him in his draft prospects to watch:

Toledo S Maxen Hook at Mississippi State (7:30 p.m. ET, ESPNU)

After producing a first-round pick (Quinyon Mitchell) last draft cycle, the Rockets’ secondary has another future draft pick in Hook (6-0, 207). A team captain, he ran in the mid-4.4s for NFL scouts this spring and has experience making plays as a nickel, box player and deep safety. Hook is more of a Day 3 pick than a first-rounder, but he will be an immediate special-teamer in the NFL and earn his way onto an active roster.

27 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Missing the forrest for the trees there.  There’s a reason Hurts hasn’t been in a true pro style passing offense after 3 years of elite college ball and 4 full years in the pros and it’s not coincidental bad luck.

I am not sure what you mean by a "true pro style offense."  Hurts' problems don't have to do with his inability to pass accurately or his arm strength.  The game has changed and gone are the days of the 5 step dropback to read a defense.  The most successful offenses in the League are not offenses with multiple reads. Plays are designed to create mismatches and leverage.  

Look at this play:

Hurts's job is to make the throw.  It's a difficult throw to make but the read is pre-determined.  Now he has a second read underneath but there's one primary throw.  Reid, McVay and Shanahan are doing the same things.  If you put Hurts on any of those teams or bring one of those coaches to this team, Hurts would have success because of his ability to throw the ball with placement and accuracy.  I don't think he's failing to make progression in reads.  Where he has failed is when the play breaks down. His instinct to break outside of the pocket does not serve him well.  He needs to work on stepping up or finding space in the pocket to make throws or run.  He has also tried to make throws that were just bad decisions.  His near INT in the RPO to AJ was a bad decision.  HIs interception in the throw that was meant for Devonta was a bad decision. He saw Devonta being covered by a LB but failed to consider the safety.  He had 2 bad throws.  The near interception in the throw meant for Dotson was a poor throw.  His interception in the end zone in the throw meant for AJ was a bad throw across his body.  It was not a bad decision but one he should have made sooner than he did.  I think his processing speed is sometimes part of the problem but by and large I don't think it's the biggest issue.  If he had just thrown the ball away, ran it or checked it down, his game would have been practically mistake free.  

The reason I think that is significant is that we are not talking about a physical trait that needs to be developed.  It's not a lack of mental ability to execute the position.  It's really the ability to make a better decision.  It's a problem of over confidence more than one of a deficit of skill.  In some ways, it's a better problem to have than having a Bradford who was unwilling to make a downfield throw.  It is a problem and one that has cost the team and kept this game closer than it should have been.  It certainly could cost them games.  

 

38 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

If they wanted to extend Williams and he wanted to be here it would be done already. If I had to guess, it would be Williams or his agent probably want to test free agency given that he’s behind two high profile draft picks here. He likely can get more playing time and more money somewhere else. He feels like more of a luxury here, which the team already has quite a few luxuries at other positions. If Ojomo can develop enough to take over for him next year it would be huge. I’d also try to bring in someone else in the mid rounds of the draft. 

The Jordan Davis talk is a whole different discussion. The bigger question to me is has he done enough to warrant his 5th year option. Right now it would be about $12M for one year and they would have to exercise and fully guarantee it next offseason. 

I don't understand the Jordan Davis concern from a talent perspective.  He is difficult for other teams to block.  He can control the LOS and pressure.  He just has to stay healthy and play more snaps.  

8 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

So when I watched some Troy game film to get an eye on what Mitchell might offer, I noticed his roommate and best friend, Maxen Hook.  I think I mentioned him in the run up to the draft. He’s a FS/nickel type.  I could see Howie using one of his day 3 picks on him.  Dane Bugler mentioned him in his draft prospects to watch:

 

Toledo S Maxen Hook at Mississippi State (7:30 p.m. ET, ESPNU)

After producing a first-round pick (Quinyon Mitchell) last draft cycle, the Rockets’ secondary has another future draft pick in Hook (6-0, 207). A team captain, he ran in the mid-4.4s for NFL scouts this spring and has experience making plays as a nickel, box player and deep safety. Hook is more of a Day 3 pick than a first-rounder, but he will be an immediate special-teamer in the NFL and earn his way onto an active roster.

Jordan Davis is going to have a Mike Patterson like career (although probably a much shorter time with the Eagles).  Different players, similar trajectory.

Patterson was drafted as an undersized penetrating DT (OK, well that’s a huge difference).  He couldn’t anchor and he didn’t really generate any pressure either.  It took a few years to realize the pressure just wasn’t going to happen.

Jordan Davis is an elite anchor, but his parallel struggle is stamina.  And he’s not generating the pressure they hoped when they made him a 1st round pick.  

Eventually, Patterson put on an enormous amount of weight and stuck around as a fire hydrant DT who did a nice job against the run.

Davis will improve in the stamina dept, the frustration over him not impacting or pressuring the passing game will fade, and he’ll stick around in the nfl for a while as a top run stuffer.

Eventually, the Eagles might learn to stop burning 1st round picks on DTs for this role.

12 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

I don't understand the Jordan Davis concern from a talent perspective.  He is difficult for other teams to block.  He can control the LOS and pressure.  He just has to stay healthy and play more snaps.  

He’s fine for what he is now on a rookie deal. Obviously we would all want him to be better to justify trading up and using premium assets to select him, but that’s a moot point now. My point is moving forward what do you do with him on his next contract. If he stays the same he’s been, is that worth $12M for one year? I wouldn’t want to pay him that much. That’s the next decision the team will be making on him and rather soon. 

12 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

He’s fine for what he is now on a rookie deal. Obviously we would all want him to be better to justify trading up and using premium assets to select him, but that’s a moot point now. My point is moving forward what do you do with him on his next contract. If he stays the same he’s been, is that worth $12M for one year? I wouldn’t want to pay him that much. That’s the next decision the team will be making on him and rather soon. 

$12 million a year places him in the range of Sheldon Rankins.  It's less than the cost of replacing him with an above average free agent and he has more upside.  

5 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

$12 million a year places him in the range of Sheldon Rankins.  It's less than the cost of replacing him with an above average free agent and he has more upside.  

Disagree on the second sentence. They brought in Linval Joseph for $2M who did everything Jordan Davis was doing. It's not hard or expensive to get a run stuffing NT.

That's why I said "If he stays the same". If he develops further and the upside is still there, sure. If he stays the same he's been thus far, the upside is limited.

On 9/10/2024 at 6:24 PM, bpac55 said:

Not sure I understand the point this guy is making. If anything, it shows how bad the play was. This ball should have been throw at the 15 second mark when AJ is breaking open and the throw should have led him to the end line. Instead, Hurts waits and waits and waits, throws across his body, which makes AJ slip. 

 

 

To be fair - even with the mistakes - if AJ doesn’t slip that’s a TD.

1 hour ago, LeanMeanGM said:

If they wanted to extend Williams and he wanted to be here it would be done already. If I had to guess, it would be Williams or his agent probably want to test free agency given that he’s behind two high profile draft picks here. He likely can get more playing time and more money somewhere else. He feels like more of a luxury here, which the team already has quite a few luxuries at other positions. If Ojomo can develop enough to take over for him next year it would be huge. I’d also try to bring in someone else in the mid rounds of the draft. 

The Jordan Davis talk is a whole different discussion. The bigger question to me is has he done enough to warrant his 5th year option. Right now it would be about $12M for one year and they would have to exercise and fully guarantee it next offseason. 

With sweat and graham likely gone next year i see both money and playing time for Williams 

Davis is fine for the role he’s in, but as a 13th overall pick you’d like to see more of a box score presence. You can find disruptive DTs off the street like they did with Joseph and Suh to a degree in 2022. You don’t need to burn top 15 picks on that. 

1 hour ago, LeanMeanGM said:

The Jordan Davis talk is a whole different discussion. The bigger question to me is has he done enough to warrant his 5th year option. Right now it would be about $12M for one year and they would have to exercise and fully guarantee it next offseason. 

The bigger question is do they think he will do enough to warrant his fifth year option.

4 minutes ago, BDawk_ASamuel said:

Davis is fine for the role he’s in, but as a 13th overall pick you’d like to see more of a box score presence. You can find disruptive DTs off the street like they did with Joseph and Suh to a degree in 2022. You don’t need to burn top 15 picks on that. 

Part of it is also they traded two draft picks to move up to get him.

8 minutes ago, BDawk_ASamuel said:

Davis is fine for the role he’s in, but as a 13th overall pick you’d like to see more of a box score presence. You can find disruptive DTs off the street like they did with Joseph and Suh to a degree in 2022. You don’t need to burn top 15 picks on that. 

Box score presence is not his game, just as it is not for Vince Wilfork, Dexter Lawrence, or Vita Vea. As I mentioned a day or two ago, Jalen Carter was double-teamed on every play when Davis was not on the field against the Packers. 

30 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

To be fair - even with the mistakes - if AJ doesn’t slip that’s a TD.

Not a chance.  At best AJ Brown can contest the INT and knock it out of Alexander's hands.  Terrible decision and terrible throw.  Hurts needs to be much better.

4 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

Not a chance.  At best AJ Brown can contest the INT and knock it out of Alexander's hands.  Terrible decision and terrible throw.  Hurts needs to be much better.

There’s zero chance Alexander outmuscles AJ Brown in a contested catch.  AJ would have stepped up to make the play the same way he does every time there’s a contested catch - he’s likely the best at in the NFL.

3 hours ago, wussbasket said:

That's just dumb. Why?

Williams hasn't developed as a pass rusher as much as the team needs. They need someone next to carter that can help generate interior pressure.

Meh.   Davis isn't that guy either.

3 hours ago, bpac55 said:

I think it's becoming more apparent that they need Milton Williams. WIlliams is an ascending player. If anything you move Jordan Davis in a trade next year and extend Williams. 

I've lost count of how many times this has had to be said, but Williams and Davis don't play the same position in this defense.

I’m curious what the deal with Rodgers will be when he’s healthy. It feels like Fangio runs a meritocracy so Mitchell might be one more good start away from earning the CB spot full time. The same way Dean earned it from White. And that’s the way it should be. 

43 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

To be fair - even with the mistakes - if AJ doesn’t slip that’s a TD.

Not true.  The ball never gets to Brown, it was undercut by Alexander.  At best, Brown is in position to break up the INT, he was never in position to make the reception with the time and location that Hurts put the ball.