8 hours ago, TEW said:

I wouldn’t be so quick to let Becton walk. He’s young with unicorn physical gifts and is playing at a pro bowl level with the possibility of moving to RT when Lane retires.

If Lane retires…. OK. Other than that, I don’t think they’ll be to afford to keep him. Next massive LT bust that will do better at RG coming up 

8 hours ago, mattwill said:

Are you really going to place Schmidt over Carlton?

#2 3B is Brooks Robinson, and it is closer than you make it out to be.

Yes, as I said earlier, pitchers are in a separate category.

And no, I don't think it really is.

7 hours ago, mattwill said:

Help me understand Bradberry's 2025 numbers from OTC copied and pasted below.  It seems to read to me that he counts as $10.8 million of Dead Money, but only just under $3 million of net Cap Hit.

He costs an extra $3M if cut pre June 1.  He's a $7.8M cap hit otherwise.

7 hours ago, mattwill said:

How do you evaluate Gayle Sayers' career? 

Great, but short and injury riddled.  He doesn't get into the discussion for greatest ever.  It is a shame, but it is what it is.  Longevity plays a role in the GOAT discussion.

The same can be said for Bo Jackson.  Amazing player, but didn't do it long enough in either sport to get into the discussion other than as a footnote.

8 hours ago, austinfan said:

 I dunno, Bob Gibson was right up there.

We were talking lefties.

4 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Great, but short and injury riddled.  He doesn't get into the discussion for greatest ever.  It is a shame, but it is what it is.  Longevity plays a role in the GOAT discussion.

The same can be said for Bo Jackson.  Amazing player, but didn't do it long enough in either sport to get into the discussion other than as a footnote.

My criteria are Apex versus GOAT.  Who would you choose to pitch that one time for all the marbles.  I'll take 1968 Bob Gibson and look forward to watching the game. 

Looking at best seasons, 1964 Brooks Robinson had a .317 BA with 82 runs, 28 HR, and 118 RBI together with 330 assists, only 12 errors and 43 double plays.  Following up on your George Brett suggestion I checked his stats and 1980 with a .390 BA with 87 runs, 24 HR, 118 RBI is damn impressive offensively.  Defensively he had together with 256 assists, 17 errors and 28 double plays. That is indeed impressive and it won him the AL MVP.  It is even more impressive when you consider he only played 117 games, or said a different way, he missed 45 games.  Interestingly enough missing substantial numbers of games was a regular year to year occurrence with Brett.  I didn't know that until now.  Thanks to you for piquing my curiosity.

9 hours ago, just relax said:

Your point is valid. His major league career was twelve years long but he is judged on his last five, when he was almost unhittable.

As long as we’re on baseball, here are a couple of little stories.

Nolan Ryan was pitching and Norm Cash, first baseman of the Tigers and a fine hitter, came to the plate carrying a table leg instead of a bat. The ump said, "Norm, you can’t use that.” To which Cash replied, "Why not? I can’t hit him anyway.”

Don Drysdale, a contemporary of Koufax’s on the Dodgers, was reputed to be the meanest SOB who ever lived. He said once, "The best pitch isn’t when you throw at a guy. It’s when you throw at him a second time to let him know you meant it the first time.”

 

8 hours ago, mattwill said:

Bob Gibson to his catcher Tim McCarver when McCarver came out to the mound to calm Gibson down ... "The only thing you know about pitching is how hard it is to hit,"

 

5 minutes ago, just relax said:

We were talking lefties.

Was Ryan a lefty?

8 hours ago, mattwill said:

That is the wild card.

But we have actually built a good defense now. And cap space isnt infinite especially with Hurts deal. We need rookie deals playing somewhere. 

Just now, ToastJenkins said:

But we have actually built a good defense now. And cap space isnt infinite especially with Hurts deal. We need rookie deals playing somewhere. 

Time for Hurts to pull a Brady and renegotiate his deal in order to give Howie the ammunition Howie needs to keep the ball rolling.

51 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

He costs an extra $3M if cut pre June 1.  He's a $7.8M cap hit otherwise.

He is a june 1. Slay probably is too

Whats BGs cap hits if he retires or comes back?

4 minutes ago, mattwill said:

My criteria are Apex versus GOAT.  Who would you choose to pitch that one time for all the marbles.  I'll take 1968 Bob Gibson and look forward to watching the game. 

Looking at best seasons, 1964 Brooks Robinson had a .317 BA with 82 runs, 28 HR, and 118 RBI together with 330 assists, only 12 errors and 43 double plays.  Following up on your George Brett suggestion I checked his stats and 1980 with a .390 BA with 87 runs, 24 HR, 118 RBI is damn impressive offensively.  Defensively he had together with 256 assists, 17 errors and 28 double plays. That is indeed impressive and it won him the AL MVP.  It is even more impressive when you consider he only played 117 games, or said a different way, he missed 45 games.  Interestingly enough missing substantial numbers of games was a regular year to year occurrence with Brett.  I didn't know that until now.  Thanks to you for piquing my curiosity.

You just focused on the difference between a great career YEAR, versus a great CAREER.  They aren't interchangeable to me.   That would elevate the likes of Roger Maris to the level of Babe Ruth.  Or, more recently, elevate Brady Anderson to the level of Willie Mays.  It's not appropriate.

4 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

You just focused on the difference between a great career YEAR, versus a great CAREER.  They aren't interchangeable to me.   That would elevate the likes of Roger Maris to the level of Babe Ruth.  Or, more recently, elevate Brady Anderson to the level of Willie Mays.  It's not appropriate.

I agree with you that that is the difference between Apex and GOAT.  Sayers isn't in the GOAT discussion, but he is in the Apex discussion.  Schmidt is in both.  Carlton is in both.  As much as I love Bernie, I opnly have him in the Apex discussion, not the GOAT discussion. 

Both discussions can go on simultaneously.  Having both discussions simultaneously considerably raises the possibilities.  It is like discussing STEM all at once, or the Classics all together, or World Religions.

10 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

He is a june 1. Slay probably is too

Whats BGs cap hits if he retires or comes back?

It was reported earlier that if he is June 1 then his 2025 Option Bonus of $16.595 million becomes due.  That would increase his Cap cost considerably.  However, the OTC wording says "If on the roster in 2025 ..."  The question that raises is whether that means the September roster or the beginning of the NFL year roaster.  I'll send OTC an e-mail asking them to clarify.

28 minutes ago, mattwill said:

I agree with you that that is the difference between Apex and GOAT.  Sayers isn't in the GOAT discussion, but he is in the Apex discussion.  Schmidt is in both.  Carlton is in both.  As much as I love Bernie, I opnly have him in the Apex discussion, not the GOAT discussion. 

Both discussions can go on simultaneously.  Having both discussions simultaneously considerably raises the possibilities.  It is like discussing STEM all at once, or the Classics all together, or World Religions.

Sure can, though we were discussing GOATs, so this is a tangent.  

43 minutes ago, mattwill said:

 

 

Was Ryan a lefty?

Nolan Ryan was a RHP.

52 minutes ago, mattwill said:

Time for Hurts to pull a Brady and renegotiate his deal in order to give Howie the ammunition Howie needs to keep the ball rolling.

All the future cap doesnt just evaporate though

Just now, ToastJenkins said:

All the future cap doesnt just evaporate though

It does if he negotiates a TB12 deal going forward.   

54 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

He is a june 1. Slay probably is too

Whats BGs cap hits if he retires or comes back?

That's what we were discussing.  Only 2 can be designated June 1, but cut sooner.  We were discussing which 2 makes the most sense, and in that discussion, Bradberry was the odd man out.  Howie knows these loopholes much better than we do though, and I'm sure he's been busy crunching these numbers for a while now.

8 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

All the future cap doesnt just evaporate though

The 2025 cap could likely be around $286 million - if it has the same increase as the previous season ($30 mil +) and with record profits by the NFL, I wouldn’t see why it wouldn’t increase by at least that much. 

8 hours ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

I was born in 80 and i dont really remember much about Schmidt i was only 9 when he retired... So for me i was late to the party so i go Rollins and Howard. The pitchers is Halladay and Wheeler. 

It's interesting to see how we connect with players and how we remember them. I was born in 81 and while I don't remember a ton about Mike Schmidt, I do know he was my favorite player as a young kid. I remember hearing Harry K call his 500th HR with my dad. He was my introduction to Phillies baseball. I don't remember a damn thing about Steve Carlton outside of having a few of his baseball cards.

The 93 Phillies was the first team I became enamored with though. 12 years old in that childhood sports are everything phase. I remember driving all around just trying to find any Philies gear. 

The 08 Phillies ended the drought and for many of us, was the first championship team we got to celebrate so that team is always going to stick out in my mind. Some all-time Phillies on that team.

1 hour ago, mattwill said:

 

 

Was Ryan a lefty?

No. Reputed to throw 108 mph.

2 hours ago, EaglePhan1986 said:

If Lane retires…. OK. Other than that, I don’t think they’ll be to afford to keep him. Next massive LT bust that will do better at RG coming up 

I don’t think there is a "next” Becton. That’s kind of the point. There are basically 3 guys in the NFL who are worth a damn at this size — Becton and Mailata are two of them.

21 minutes ago, bpac55 said:

It's interesting to see how we connect with players and how we remember them. I was born in 81 and while I don't remember a ton about Mike Schmidt, I do know he was my favorite player as a young kid. I remember hearing Harry K call his 500th HR with my dad. He was my introduction to Phillies baseball. I don't remember a damn thing about Steve Carlton outside of having a few of his baseball cards.

The 93 Phillies was the first team I became enamored with though. 12 years old in that childhood sports are everything phase. I remember driving all around just trying to find any Philies gear. 

The 08 Phillies ended the drought and for many of us, was the first championship team we got to celebrate so that team is always going to stick out in my mind. Some all-time Phillies on that team.

My first real memories of baseball was the 93 world series and joe carter actually became my favorite player. I was young and all i knew was that homerun. I wised up though lol. 

2 hours ago, EaglePhan1986 said:

If Lane retires…. OK. Other than that, I don’t think they’ll be to afford to keep him. Next massive LT bust that will do better at RG coming up 

I think that there are some players on this team who’ve been given life - and have been in the league in bad situations - and will take pay cuts to stay in Philly. Beckon, Baun, Rodgers, fit that mold. Plus being contenders always helps. TJ Edwards was here forever and hit a massive payday - he gets to win 7 games a season now in Chicago. Woopty doo.