1 hour ago, jojodancer said:

Dude it was a mistake. Relax!

Your response felt like weasel wording to me. If not, I apologize. All I really wanted to make clear was that the opinion expressed in that podcast regarding Becton was in no way based on anything Cosell ever said. I did not feel like your acknowledgment that it was not Cosell whom you cited was less than fulsome. I freely admit to having a hard on for Becton. That’s no secret. It feels to me like Godzilla fell out of the sky. Years ago I was made privy to the fact that Ralph Wilson, owner of the Bills, was cash poor and didn’t want to pay Jason Peters what I thought he was worth. I ranted on the blog for months that we should get this guy and eventually we did. Lots of pushback here but I and @mattwill were over the moon about him. I’m not saying Becton will ever be that good but he’s an incredible talent and I will be despondent if we let him walk.

That anyone could look at him and Steen and suggest that they are comparable talents is, to me, absurd. That podcaster you linked to is, imho, an idiot. Not your fault he’s an idiot.

14 minutes ago, just relax said:

That anyone could look at him and Steen and suggest that they are comparable talents is, to me, absurd.

I'm not sure that anyone has said this

10 hours ago, rrfierce said:

I put a couple of eagles tributes in my race car today 

Picture’s backward.  😊

31 minutes ago, just relax said:

Your response felt like weasel wording to me. If not, I apologize. All I really wanted to make clear was that the opinion expressed in that podcast regarding Becton was in no way based on anything Cosell ever said. I did not feel like your acknowledgment that it was not Cosell whom you cited was less than fulsome. I freely admit to having a hard on for Becton. That’s no secret. It feels to me like Godzilla fell out of the sky. Years ago I was made privy to the fact that Ralph Wilson, owner of the Bills, was cash poor and didn’t want to pay Jason Peters what I thought he was worth. I ranted on the blog for months that we should get this guy and eventually we did. Lots of pushback here but I and @mattwill were over the moon about him. I’m not saying Becton will ever be that good but he’s an incredible talent and I will be despondent if we let him walk.

That anyone could look at him and Steen and suggest that they are comparable talents is, to me, absurd. That podcaster you linked to is, imho, an idiot. Not your fault he’s an idiot.

Physical traits sure, but you seem overly enamored with him. The delta from him to Steen is not as large as the cost delta

26 minutes ago, Swoop said:

I'm not sure that anyone has said this

That DiCecco guy did, whoever he is. Certainly not Greg Cosell.

4 hours ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

Where are the links to the reports where Garrett has indicated he is looking for a new contract?

"A new Myles Garrett deal

Both sides appear to be playing a high-stakes game of "Chicken" where somebody will eventually blink. Garrett said he's willing to do whatever it takes to get out of Cleveland. What actions Garrett may take if the Browns continue to be adamant about keeping him remain to be seen. 

Presumably, the acquiring team or the Browns will be extending Garrett's contract in 2025. Garrett's existing contract is outdated. In four years, he has gone from the league's highest-paid non-quarterback at $25 million per year to tied for the 20th-highest paid. Garrett had two years left on his rookie contract when he signed the extension.

Nick Bosa is at the top of the NFL edge rusher salary hierarchy with the five-year, $170 million extension averaging $34 million per year he received from the 49ers right before the start of the 2023 regular season. The deal has a non-quarterback record of $122.5 million in overall guarantees and $88 million fully guaranteed at signing. 

The highest-paid non-quarterback is Minnesota Vikings wide receiver Justin Jefferson. He signed a four-year, $140 million extension last June averaging $35 million per year with $110 million in guarantees, of which $88.743 million was fully guaranteed at signing. The $88.743 million is the most ever fully guaranteed at signing for a non-quarterback.

A new Garrett deal should top Jefferson's $35 million per year. The contract Garrett signed in 2020 was a 6.38% increase over the top of the existing non-quarterback market. A similar increase this time around would put Garrett at $37.25 million per year.”

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-why-browns-dealing-myles-garrett-wont-be-easy-what-trade-compensation-for-star-could-look-like/amp/

 

1 hour ago, just relax said:

Your response felt like weasel wording to me. If not, I apologize. All I really wanted to make clear was that the opinion expressed in that podcast regarding Becton was in no way based on anything Cosell ever said. I did not feel like your acknowledgment that it was not Cosell whom you cited was less than fulsome. I freely admit to having a hard on for Becton. That’s no secret. It feels to me like Godzilla fell out of the sky. Years ago I was made privy to the fact that Ralph Wilson, owner of the Bills, was cash poor and didn’t want to pay Jason Peters what I thought he was worth. I ranted on the blog for months that we should get this guy and eventually we did. Lots of pushback here but I and @mattwill were over the moon about him. I’m not saying Becton will ever be that good but he’s an incredible talent and I will be despondent if we let him walk.

That anyone could look at him and Steen and suggest that they are comparable talents is, to me, absurd. That podcaster you linked to is, imho, an idiot. Not your fault he’s an idiot.

Becton is better. No doubt. It's complex though. To keep it simple, I just think the defense is risking a huge fall-off if Becton is the reason you don't sign some of the defensive guys. I think the Eagles can spring maybe $8-10M with incentives. But I see him getting more than that. And I think by far his best situation in the NFL is the Eagles one, which makes that still a possibility.

Now the point that I agreed with the Podcaster is I think he needs the Eagles more than we need him. He's in a great low pressure situation on this offensive line and has Stout coaching him up. Without intricately looking at film the Eagles offense doesn't look any worse from a points perspective with Steen in the game. Also, Steen has very few snaps and still does have upside being a 3rd round pick. Cosell did like Steen coming out of Alabama and said don't be surprised if he starts as a rookie.

Lastly, if you take Becton's knee and past injury issues into consideration you just can't go crazy here. The right guard position has been kind of a revolving door since Brooks retired. It may just be that we have to keep doing that here because of payroll. Eagles did okay with Seuamalo, Jurgens and Becton since. The theory is that with Stout, he will find his next guy there whether it be Steen or a new guy and the offense will probably not miss a beat is my guess.

1 hour ago, pgcd3 said:

I know it's sacrilege but he's maybe someone else who should go out on top.  Mistakes are definitely piling up.  I love Merrill would rather not hear him decline more

I’ve been out on Merrill for a few years now. Baseball is easier for old guys, Football not so much. 

12 minutes ago, mattwill said:

"A new Myles Garrett deal

Both sides appear to be playing a high-stakes game of "Chicken" where somebody will eventually blink. Garrett said he's willing to do whatever it takes to get out of Cleveland. What actions Garrett may take if the Browns continue to be adamant about keeping him remain to be seen. 

Presumably, the acquiring team or the Browns will be extending Garrett's contract in 2025. Garrett's existing contract is outdated. In four years, he has gone from the league's highest-paid non-quarterback at $25 million per year to tied for the 20th-highest paid. Garrett had two years left on his rookie contract when he signed the extension.

Nick Bosa is at the top of the NFL edge rusher salary hierarchy with the five-year, $170 million extension averaging $34 million per year he received from the 49ers right before the start of the 2023 regular season. The deal has a non-quarterback record of $122.5 million in overall guarantees and $88 million fully guaranteed at signing. 

The highest-paid non-quarterback is Minnesota Vikings wide receiver Justin Jefferson. He signed a four-year, $140 million extension last June averaging $35 million per year with $110 million in guarantees, of which $88.743 million was fully guaranteed at signing. The $88.743 million is the most ever fully guaranteed at signing for a non-quarterback.

A new Garrett deal should top Jefferson's $35 million per year. The contract Garrett signed in 2020 was a 6.38% increase over the top of the existing non-quarterback market. A similar increase this time around would put Garrett at $37.25 million per year.”

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-why-browns-dealing-myles-garrett-wont-be-easy-what-trade-compensation-for-star-could-look-like/amp/

https://youtu.be/RTy2C6LEXx8?feature=shared

 

But,but,but...the words did not come directly out of Garrett's mouth so it can't be true.

🙄

9 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

Physical traits sure, but you seem overly enamored with him. The delta from him to Steen is not as large as the cost delta

How do you measure these deltas?What’s the difference between good and great? Is Saqoun 10x better than Gainwell, which is what their contracts are worth. What’s the difference between them? 

Try it another way: How good is Dickerson? What’s he worth? If I’m right, Becton is a comparable talent. Do you think Steen is as good as Dickerson? Clearly, Stoutland thinks Becton is better than Steen, else he wouldn’t play him.

I Would love to think Steen could be a pro bowl level guard but I don’t know that. I know Becton is.

This is all opinion, and nobody pays me for mine.

34 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

Physical traits sure, but you seem overly enamored with him. The delta from him to Steen is not as large as the cost delta

I think the decision really comes down to what Fran Duffy, Berman and Bo kind have alluded too over the past month. Is becton worth 7/8 mil more per year than steen (or draft pick; some stoutland obviously would like), comp pick you’ll get letting becton walk and being able to allocate the money you don’t spend on becton elsewhere. Becton is clearly better as a player than steen. That’s not even remotely a question. But imo it is not just strictly about talent. Jurgens also needs to be extended. Could potentially have 5 OL being paid significant amount of money. Imo like Duffy and that podcast has discussed a lot, it’s becton’s upside and ability and money vs. steen(potential draft pick), comp pick from becton and allocating the money they save at RG and putting it elsewhere. If becton gives somewhat of a discount i think it makes it an easier decision for the eagles  

 

I heard Sikkema mock Shedeur Sanders to the Giants at #3 overall; that would be worthy of sustained laughter.

I don’t pay much attention to mocks until a week or two before the draft, but Sikkema did say the Giants have seemed much more interested in Sanders than Ward to this point 

17 minutes ago, jojodancer said:

Becton is better. No doubt. It's complex though. To keep it simple, I just think the defense is risking a huge fall-off if Becton is the reason you don't sign some of the defensive guys. I think the Eagles can spring maybe $8-10M with incentives. But I see him getting more than that. And I think by far his best situation in the NFL is the Eagles one, which makes that still a possibility.

Now the point that I agreed with the Podcaster is I think he needs the Eagles more than we need him. He's in a great low pressure situation on this offensive line and has Stout coaching him up. Without intricately looking at film the Eagles offense doesn't look any worse from a points perspective with Steen in the game. Also, Steen has very few snaps and still does have upside being a 3rd round pick. Cosell did like Steen coming out of Alabama and said don't be surprised if he starts as a rookie.

Lastly, if you take Becton's knee and past injury issues into consideration you just can't go crazy here. The right guard position has been kind of a revolving door since Brooks retired. It may just be that we have to keep doing that here because of payroll. Eagles did okay with Seuamalo, Jurgens and Becton since. The theory is that with Stout, he will find his next guy there whether it be Steen or a new guy and the offense will probably not miss a beat is my guess.

Valid points. A few quibbling comments: Cosell loved Becton coming out of college.

I believe Seumalo played more LG than RG but it was probably close. Maybe when Brooks retired he moved over.

I’m an OL guy almost exclusively. We have potentially the five best OL at their positions in the league. Five all-pros! It’s a wet dream for me. I don’t think there’s ever been a better OL in terms of talent. I just so want to see that continue to develop.

14 minutes ago, jojodancer said:

Becton is better. No doubt. It's complex though. To keep it simple, I just think the defense is risking a huge fall-off if Becton is the reason you don't sign some of the defensive guys. I think the Eagles can spring maybe $8-10M with incentives. But I see him getting more than that. And I think by far his best situation in the NFL is the Eagles one, which makes that still a possibility.

Now the point that I agreed with the Podcaster is I think he needs the Eagles more than we need him. He's in a great low pressure situation on this offensive line and has Stout coaching him up. Without intricately looking at film the Eagles offense doesn't look any worse from a points perspective with Steen in the game. Also, Steen has very few snaps and still does have upside being a 3rd round pick. Cosell did like Steen coming out of Alabama and said don't be surprised if he starts as a rookie.

Lastly, if you take Becton's knee and past injury issues into consideration you just can't go crazy here. The right guard position has been kind of a revolving door since Brooks retired. It may just be that we have to keep doing that here because of payroll. Eagles did okay with Seuamalo, Jurgens and Becton since. The theory that is with Stout, he will find his next guy there whether it be Steen or a new guy and the offense will probably not miss a beat  is my guess.

The 2 cheapest big free agents we have will be Becton and Baun. They are also both the most important, in my view, potential losses for the offense and defense respectively.

As luck would have it, the only way we can afford to keep 2 of our big 4 free agents is if they are Becton and Baun; we are simply fortunate that their positions are valued less by NFL teams than most other positions.

Now, here is the big question in my mind: who is more likely to replicate their production from last season? Becton or Baun? Because you’re going to be paying for past performance on the expectation of future results.

To me, Becton’s performance is entirely replicable. In fact, I’d go so far as to say his performance has a very good chance of increasing in the future. He’s just completed his first season at guard, he’s just finished his first season working with LJ and Cam next to him, and he just had his first year in a world class organization with an all-time great level coach. He’s still young and has an enormous amount of untapped potential due to his unicorn like physical traits.

On the other hand, Baun’s value is largely based in the turnovers he produced. Yes, he was very good in run defense and in zone coverage. But the premium we are going to pay is due to the turnovers he produced. I am not nearly as confident that he can get us 6 turnovers in the regular season and another 4 in the playoffs. There is simply a ton of variance with these things and he hasn’t played enough snaps in his career to show this is a reasonable expectation.

So, we are fortunate that we might be able to keep both, which we would not be able to do with Williams or Sweat, but the priority should be Becton in my view.

6 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I think the decision really comes down to what Fran Duffy, Berman and Bo kind have alluded too over the past month. Is becton worth 7/8 mil more per year than steen (or draft pick; some stoutland obviously would like), comp pick you’ll get letting becton walk and being able to allocate the money you don’t spend on becton elsewhere. Becton is clearly better as a player than steen. That’s not even remotely a question. But imo it is not just strictly about talent. Jurgens also needs to be extended. Could potentially have 5 OL being paid significant amount of money. Imo like Duffy and that podcast has discussed a lot, it’s becton’s upside and ability and money vs. steen(potential draft pick), comp pick from becton and allocating the money they save at RG and putting it elsewhere. If becton gives somewhat of a discount i think it makes it an easier decision for the eagles  

 

Oh if Becton only gets 8-10M from another team, that would be upsetting. But if he gets anything more than 12-13M and anything more than 2 years then it has to be a no. Just can't fit another long term deal on the line for Big Money with what's coming up here with the youngens on defense.

1 minute ago, jojodancer said:

Oh if Becton only gets 8-10M from another team, that would be upsetting. But if he gets anything more than 12-13M and anything more than 2 years then it has to be a no. Just can't fit another long term deal on the line for Big Money with what's coming up here with the youngens on defense.

If I can sign Becton to a long term deal at $13M I do it without hesitation and laugh maniacally as I sign the check.

That contract will be an absolute steal as the cap continues to increase. I’d be pushing for 4 or even 5 years.

20 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

But,but,but...the words did not come directly out of Garrett's mouth so it can't be true.

🙄

Butt, butt, butt …

18 minutes ago, TEW said:

The 2 cheapest big free agents we have will be Becton and Baun. They are also both the most important, in my view, potential losses for the offense and defense respectively.

As luck would have it, the only way we can afford to keep 2 of our big 4 free agents is if they are Becton and Baun; we are simply fortunate that their positions are valued less by NFL teams than most other positions.

Now, here is the big question in my mind: who is more likely to replicate their production from last season? Becton or Baun? Because you’re going to be paying for past performance on the expectation of future results.

To me, Becton’s performance is entirely replicable. In fact, I’d go so far as to say his performance has a very good chance of increasing in the future. He’s just completed his first season at guard, he’s just finished his first season working with LJ and Cam next to him, and he just had his first year in a world class organization with an all-time great level coach. He’s still young and has an enormous amount of untapped potential due to his unicorn like physical traits.

On the other hand, Baun’s value is largely based in the turnovers he produced. Yes, he was very good in run defense and in zone coverage. But the premium we are going to pay is due to the turnovers he produced. I am not nearly as confident that he can get us 6 turnovers in the regular season and another 4 in the playoffs. There is simply a ton of variance with these things and he hasn’t played enough snaps in his career to show this is a reasonable expectation.

So, we are fortunate that we might be able to keep both, which we would not be able to do with Williams or Sweat, but the priority should be Becton in my view.

Truthfully, I'd be happy with Becton and Baun. But I am still very nervous giving up an up &  coming Milton Williams who beats one on one's regularly and feeds off of Carter. It's a great young duo. He may still have more upside as well. He actually had more sacks than Carter last year if you count the playoffs. And in way less snaps. He developed the clutch gene as well. I think he will just keep being that guy. My theory is those 2 together wreak so much havoc down the middle that it makes the entire defense better. Those 2 made Mahomes circle the eff out the whole game and turned him into a rookie. Can't get that thought out of my head. You can play jags like Burks behind them and still look dominant.

8 minutes ago, TEW said:

The 2 cheapest big free agents we have will be Becton and Baun. They are also both the most important, in my view, potential losses for the offense and defense respectively.

As luck would have it, the only way we can afford to keep 2 of our big 4 free agents is if they are Becton and Baun; we are simply fortunate that their positions are valued less by NFL teams than most other positions.

Now, here is the big question in my mind: who is more likely to replicate their production from last season? Becton or Baun? Because you’re going to be paying for past performance on the expectation of future results.

To me, Becton’s performance is entirely replicable. In fact, I’d go so far as to say his performance has a very good chance of increasing in the future. He’s just completed his first season at guard, he’s just finished his first season working with LJ and Cam next to him, and he just had his first year in a world class organization with an all-time great level coach. He’s still young and has an enormous amount of untapped potential due to his unicorn like physical traits.

On the other hand, Baun’s value is largely based in the turnovers he produced. Yes, he was very good in run defense and in zone coverage. But the premium we are going to pay is due to the turnovers he produced. I am not nearly as confident that he can get us 6 turnovers in the regular season and another 4 in the playoffs. There is simply a ton of variance with these things and he hasn’t played enough snaps in his career to show this is a reasonable expectation.

So, we are fortunate that we might be able to keep both, which we would not be able to do with Williams or Sweat, but the priority should be Becton in my view.

I know this isn’t the answer you want to hear, but for me both of them have a high probability of repeating their 2024 performance in 2025.  The reason I believe that is Jeff Stoutland and Vic Fangio.  Both have put together the kind of environment that maximizes the talent of Becton and Baun respectively. And both Becton and Baun have explicitly said so multiple times this season.

Just now, jojodancer said:

Truthfully I'd be happy with Becton and Baun. But I am still very nervous giving up an upcoming Milton Williams who  beats one on one's regularly and feeds off of Carter. It's a great young duo. He may still have more upside as well. He actually had more sacks than Carter last year if you count the playoffs. And in way less snaps. He developed the clutch gene as well. I think he will jist keep being that guy. My theory is those 2 together wreak so much havoc that it makes the entire defense better. You can play jags like Burks behind them and survive. 

What makes our team better — Williams or Benton and Baun? I think the answer is clearly Becton and Baun.

Who is easier to replace? Williams or Becton and Baun? I think the answer is clearly Williams, since we already have Davis and Ojomo and this draft class is wildly deep at DT.

What poses more risk to our salary cap structure? One contract for Williams or a smaller contract for Becton and Baun? Clearly diversifying our cap allotment spreads risk.

What gives us more depth? Resigning Williams or resigning Baun and Becton? Clear keeping two players gives us better depth, not just because it’s 2v1, but because Steen is now kept as the primary backup AND we will likely save draft picks we can use elsewhere.

Williams is gone. Good for him, but he’s not the guy on the DL, Carter is. Becton and Baun make us a better team with more upside and better depth.

1 minute ago, jojodancer said:

Truthfully I'd be happy with Becton and Baun. But I am still very nervous giving up an upcoming Milton Williams who  beats one on one's regularly and feeds off of Carter. It's a great young duo. He may still have more upside as well. He actually had more sacks than Carter last year if you count the playoffs. And in way less snaps. He developed the clutch gene as well. I think he will jist keep being that guy. My theory is those 2 together wreak so much havoc that it makes the entire defense better. You can play jags like Burks behind them and survive. 

You have shared that opinion numerous times over the past few weeks.  It is a valid, and even compelling, opinion.  The question it didn’t answer, because it can’t answer, is whether that is attributable to Carter or to Williams.  If it is the former, then it is reasonable to expect Ojomo to thrive next season.  If it is the latter, then Carter isn’t as good as everyone thinks he is.

So that begs the question, how good do you think Carter really is?

8 minutes ago, mattwill said:

I know this isn’t the answer you want to hear, but for me both of them have a high probability of repeating their 2024 performance in 2025.  The reason I believe that is Jeff Stoutland and Vic Fangio.  Both have put together the kind of environment that maximizes the talent of Becton and Baun respectively. And both Becton and Baun have explicitly said so multiple times this season.

If Fangio was scheming and coaching his ILBs into turnovers, we should be able to see that in his past teams.

I don’t know the answer to this, but is that a trend?

32 minutes ago, TEW said:

What makes our team better — Williams or Benton and Baun? I think the answer is clearly Becton and Baun.

Who is easier to replace? Williams or Becton and Baun? I think the answer is clearly Williams, since we already have Davis and Ojomo and this draft class is wildly deep at DT.

What poses more risk to our salary cap structure? One contract for Williams or a smaller contract for Becton and Baun? Clearly diversifying our cap allotment spreads risk.

What gives us more depth? Resigning Williams or resigning Baun and Becton? Clear keeping two players gives us better depth, not just because it’s 2v1, but because Steen is now kept as the primary backup AND we will likely save draft picks we can use elsewhere.

Williams is gone. Good for him, but he’s not the guy on the DL, Carter is. Becton and Baun make us a better team with more upside and better depth.

First of all, I am not assuming Davis stays. If Fangio doesn't start him this year, he's probably gone as a long term piece. You think he's going to sit behind the bench as a role player? I think he sees himself differently. But will see.

Second of all, Becton and Baun are not going to be cheap signings around the league. That's wishful thinking right now. Those 2 salaries do not equate to Williams. Unless they both sign for large hometown discounts.

Third of all, Ojomo hasn't done it yet as a starter. He may. Still had 0 sacks. Rather him be the top guy off the bench coming into his 3rd season. Still raw.

You're making it too cut and dried that your scenario is a no brainer. Holistically speaking, no Williams added on to no Sweat and no Slay is close to a dagger for me, as far as being an aspiring top ranked defense in 2025 goes. If your defense is going to have games where they play many snaps and don't get off the field like in 2023, it poses a serious risk to Eagles steamrolling teams like last year. Gonna be a lot tougher road whether you have Becton or Steen or whomever at right guard.

27 minutes ago, mattwill said:

You have shared that opinion numerous times over the past few weeks.  It is a valid, and even compelling, opinion.  The question it didn’t answer, because it can’t answer, is whether that is attributable to Carter or to Williams.  If it is the former, then it is reasonable to expect Ojomo to thrive next season.  If it is the latter, then Carter isn’t as good as everyone thinks he is.

So that begs the question, how good do you think Carter really is?

I think Williams in his own right is becoming a beast and they will feed off of each other.  Eventually teams may have to pick their poison of Williams/Carter if he keeps beating one on one's and will think about double teaming him as well. He's in the process of becoming that guy. Still an unfinished product. As his snaps went up so did his production. Again, he got to the QB and made big plays and that's where the money is at. Ojomo not so much yet. Davis is going into his 4th year and still hasn't shown that knack. Can't assume Ojomo is Williams. Not there yet.

16 minutes ago, jojodancer said:

First of all, I am not assuming Davis stays. If Fangio doesn't start him this year, he's probably gone as a long term piece. You think he's going to sit behind the bench as a role player. I think he sees himself differently. But will see.

Second of all, Becton and Baun are not going to be cheap signings around the league. That's wishful thinking right now. Those 2 salaries do not equate to Williams. Unless they both sign for large hometown discounts.

Third of all, Ojomo hasn't done it yet as a starter. He may. Still had 0 sacks. Rather him be the top guy off the bench coming into his 3rd season. Still raw.

You're making it too cut and dried that your scenario is a no brainer. Holistically speaking, no Williams added on to no Sweat and no Slay is close to a dagger for me, as far as being an aspiring top ranked defense in 2025 goes. If your defense is going to have games where they play many snaps and don't get off the field like in 2023 it poses a serious risk to Eagles steamrolling teams like last year. Gonna be a lot tougher road whether you have Becton or Steen or whoever.

Becton and Baun combined will be roughly equal to Williams. Maybe a little more.

Slay and Sweat are independent variables. Sweat is gone regardless. Slay could leave or be brought back regardless in either scenario.

Do you think Williams makes our defense better than Baun?