46 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

You’ve made a fool of yourself bring Democrats into it. You know Democrats weren’t the ones who kept saying they were gonna release the list and then didn’t release the list. But you went full speed ahead anyway like the dope you are.

I didn't bring them into it you dope. I specifically said "I wasn't critical to the Dems" in my post in terms of their handling of this topic. Try to read the post before you reply.

On 7/9/2025 at 3:08 AM, DrPhilly said:

exactly, too many big and powerful people are on the list and that includes Trump but also people on the left

So when you said "exactly" here in response to rambo's post explicitly trying to lump the Democrats into this, you weren't being critical of the Dems? Is that what you're going with?

30 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

It's even worse than simply not releasing the list, they're trying to now say there is no list after literally posing for photo ops like this...

Imagine how much contempt they have for their own voters to insult their intelligence like this.

Correction dear sir. They are dead certain their peeps will obey and forget all about it. It's not an insult, just the daily affirmation of loyalty.

6 hours ago, DrPhilly said:

Where I did "both sides” was on the cult topic when I said the left has their dogma issue

Don't get offended by what I'm about to say until you read my entire post...

I think what I just quoted from you is total BS. There is nothing wrong with taking principled stands on policy issues. That's how normal debate/discourse works. I have ZERO problems with pro-life, anti-abortion zealots as human beings or how they came to stand on their moral high ground. I probably don't agree with them (most of the time) but I at least accept that they have a certain belief structure and they will die on that principled hill and I have some minimal amount of respect for that. You can disagree with woke culture or BLM, think they're misinformed, or even protest against the very nature of their core belief. But the fact is that the vast majority aren't blindly following a person. They've aligned themselves to what was, at one point, I believe a righteous cause of equality for everyone. They've taken a principled stance on what they believe is right. Social media and group think have clearly taken hold of the movement and a lot of them have lost their way. But every single one of them are trying to stand up for a personal belief. These people can be debated and reasoned with. You may not be able to change their minds and they might make fools of themselves attempting to vocalize a movement they really don't know enough about. But they can at least be talked to.

Now juxtapose that with MAGA, who CLEARLY demonstrate that they have zero principled beliefs at all outside of an unquestioned, undying loyalty to one person who they pray to and worship as a god. As such, they float and switch course with every change in wind direction emanating from their orange messiah. They can't be debated or reasoned with because they can't help but contradict themselves every 30 seconds because they have no moral/principled north star. In addition, they'll feel duty bound to attack you personally for disagreeing with them because their entire human experience has been married to their cult worship of Donald Trump and their personal MAGA religion doesn't allow for dissenting thought.

So going back to you always both sidesing every single topic you participate in, which you do, I don't know what you're trying to accomplish. There's nothing wrong with taking a principled stand on your beliefs. I'd understand you more if I had any sort of evidence that you believe in anything other than this idea of "anyone who believes in anything is an idiot because everyone is wrong except me... who will never actually take a stand on any issue". I don't know if that's you as a person, but that's basically the entire observable existence of Dr. Philly here in CVON and why we do a collective eye roll every time you come charging into a topic shitting on EVERYONE while seemingly elevating yourself above any attempt at debate.

I'll leave it here... I agree with 90% of what you post on here and I like you as a poster. The other 10% is nauseating and I can't even remotely understand the place it comes from.

1 hour ago, Alpha_TATEr said:

who is on the list and how each party handled it are different convos.

i just want to see the list that was spoken of over and over again and then suddenly vanished into thin air. it's not just about the political parties. i'm sure there are plenty of clients that weren't politicians. they all need to to be exposed.

I have no doubt there are important political donors on all side of the political spectrum - MAGA, Republican, Democrat -who were Epstein clients.

1 minute ago, Procus said:

I have no doubt there are important political donors on all side of the political spectrum - MAGA, Republican, Democrat -who were Epstein clients.

and now we'll never know thanks to trump.

just remember, you voted for this.

7 minutes ago, Alpha_TATEr said:

and now we'll never know thanks to trump.

just remember, you voted for this.

Yah, Kamala would have released the list in a heartbeat!!!

2 minutes ago, Procus said:

Yah, Kamala would have released the list in a heartbeat!!!

wow, speculation and deflection in one response.

guess what you gutless tink, kamala isn't potus, but trump is, and he just covered up one of the biggest scandals in us history, but yeah, kamala !!!!!!!

16 minutes ago, Procus said:

I have no doubt there are important political donors on all side of the political spectrum - MAGA, Republican, Democrat -who were Epstein clients.

So maga donors are on the list but not Trump? Or did you mean to imply Trump is too but couldn't bring yourself to actually type out his name here?

8 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

So maga donors are on the list but not Trump? Or did you mean to imply Trump is too but couldn't bring yourself to actually type out his name here?

He could be on there, but it was widely reported that Trump kicked Epstein out of Mar O Lago. Who really knows.

12 minutes ago, Alpha_TATEr said:

wow, speculation and deflection in one response.

guess what you gutless tink, kamala isn't potus, but trump is, and he just covered up one of the biggest scandals in us history, but yeah, kamala !!!!!!!

Epstein was around for a couple of decades. How many presidents released the list during that time?

49 minutes ago, mayanh8 said:

Don't get offended by what I'm about to say until you read my entire post...

I think what I just quoted from you is total BS. There is nothing wrong with taking principled stands on policy issues. That's how normal debate/discourse works. I have ZERO problems with pro-life, anti-abortion zealots as human beings or how they came to stand on their moral high ground. I probably don't agree with them (most of the time) but I at least accept that they have a certain belief structure and they will die on that principled hill and I have some minimal amount of respect for that. You can disagree with woke culture or BLM, think they're misinformed, or even protest against the very nature of their core belief. But the fact is that the vast majority aren't blindly following a person. They've aligned themselves to what was, at one point, I believe a righteous cause of equality for everyone. They've taken a principled stance on what they believe is right. Social media and group think have clearly taken hold of the movement and a lot of them have lost their way. But every single one of them are trying to stand up for a personal belief. These people can be debated and reasoned with. You may not be able to change their minds and they might make fools of themselves attempting to vocalize a movement they really don't know enough about. But they can at least be talked to.

Now juxtapose that with MAGA, who CLEARLY demonstrate that they have zero principled beliefs at all outside of an unquestioned, undying loyalty to one person who they pray to and worship as a god. As such, they float and switch course with every change in wind direction emanating from their orange messiah. They can't be debated or reasoned with because they can't help but contradict themselves every 30 seconds because they have no moral/principled north star. In addition, they'll feel duty bound to attack you personally for disagreeing with them because their entire human experience has been married to their cult worship of Donald Trump and their personal MAGA religion doesn't allow for dissenting thought.

So going back to you always both sidesing every single topic you participate in, which you do, I don't know what you're trying to accomplish. There's nothing wrong with taking a principled stand on your beliefs. I'd understand you more if I had any sort of evidence that you believe in anything other than this idea of "anyone who believes in anything is an idiot because everyone is wrong except me... who will never actually take a stand on any issue". I don't know if that's you as a person, but that's basically the entire observable existence of Dr. Philly here in CVON and why we do a collective eye roll every time you come charging into a topic shitting on EVERYONE while seemingly elevating yourself above any attempt at debate.

I'll leave it here... I agree with 90% of what you post on here and I like you as a poster. The other 10% is nauseating and I can't even remotely understand the place it comes from.

Ok, a good post. I'll copy each section separately and address them one by one.

8 minutes ago, Procus said:

He could be on there

I'm sorry, he could be on where? There is no list remember?

8 minutes ago, Procus said:

Epstein was around for a couple of decades.

Exactly, why are we even still talking about him? Time to move on, amirite?

50 minutes ago, mayanh8 said:

I think what I just quoted from you is total BS. There is nothing wrong with taking principled stands on policy issues. That's how normal debate/discourse works. I have ZERO problems with pro-life, anti-abortion zealots as human beings or how they came to stand on their moral high ground. I probably don't agree with them (most of the time) but I at least accept that they have a certain belief structure and they will die on that principled hill and I have some minimal amount of respect for that. You can disagree with woke culture or BLM, think they're misinformed, or even protest against the very nature of their core belief. But the fact is that the vast majority aren't blindly following a person. They've aligned themselves to what was, at one point, I believe a righteous cause of equality for everyone. They've taken a principled stance on what they believe is right. Social media and group think have clearly taken hold of the movement and a lot of them have lost their way. But every single one of them are trying to stand up for a personal belief. These people can be debated and reasoned with. You may not be able to change their minds and they might make fools of themselves attempting to vocalize a movement they really don't know enough about. But they can at least be talked to.

I will agree with you on this point if we make it a comparison vs. the MAGA loons. However, I think it it quite a stretch to stamp the entire left with the idea that they can "be talked to". Yes, their positions are built from something tangible but a large chunk of people act in a dogmatic manner and don't genuinely engage in a real debate/discussion and as such they don't really "listen". That dogmatic approach is very symptomatic of a significant chunk of the far left over the last 20 years. I do think the trend has been moving in the other direction for a while now so I find that to be healthy.

2 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Exactly, why are we even still talking about him? Time to move on, amirite?

You and the other commies on this thread are talking about it nonstop because the Trump admin has egg on its face with this one. It's pretty much all you got.

56 minutes ago, mayanh8 said:

Now juxtapose that with MAGA, who CLEARLY demonstrate that they have zero principled beliefs at all outside of an unquestioned, undying loyalty to one person who they pray to and worship as a god. As such, they float and switch course with every change in wind direction emanating from their orange messiah. They can't be debated or reasoned with because they can't help but contradict themselves every 30 seconds because they have no moral/principled north star. In addition, they'll feel duty bound to attack you personally for disagreeing with them because their entire human experience has been married to their cult worship of Donald Trump and their personal MAGA religion doesn't allow for dissenting thought.

No argument here. I totally agree with you as you know. I think Sam Harris gave the best explanation as to the attraction to Trump and why it occurs. In a nutshell, Sam asserts that Trump has zero morals and never pretends or wants to have any and these idiots feel like he paves the way and makes it ok for all of them to be horrible people.

1 minute ago, Procus said:

You and the other commies on this thread are talking about it nonstop because the Trump admin has egg on its face with this one. It's pretty much all you got.

All we got is reminding you that you voted for a pedophile and Epstein's best friend for a decade.

15 minutes ago, Procus said:

Epstein was around for a couple of decades. How many presidents released the list during that time?

i agree that they all should get the stink eye.

now that we have tossed your 2nd deflection aside, who is the current potus (oh and a former) and what is your opinion and him covering this up considering the strong possibility that he was a client?

can you bring yourself to calling this out for what it is, or are you going to continue to defend a pedophile with deflection?

59 minutes ago, mayanh8 said:

So going back to you always both sidesing every single topic you participate in, which you do, I don't know what you're trying to accomplish. There's nothing wrong with taking a principled stand on your beliefs. I'd understand you more if I had any sort of evidence that you believe in anything other than this idea of "anyone who believes in anything is an idiot because everyone is wrong except me... who will never actually take a stand on any issue". I don't know if that's you as a person, but that's basically the entire observable existence of Dr. Philly here in CVON and why we do a collective eye roll every time you come charging into a topic shitting on EVERYONE while seemingly elevating yourself above any attempt at debate.

I've always taken a bit of a contrarian perspective in here so I understand what you are saying and that's all fine. However, it is certainly not true that I don't take a stand. There aren't many issues that I won't take a stand on. Pick one and I'll take a stand. I might use some nuance but I'll still have a clear position on the majority of topics.

Try me on one. Anything you like. In the meantime, here are a few. I'm pro National Health Program but I do want to ensure that everyone can buy more if they want to beyond the basic level that is provided. I'm pro Abortion rights but I do think there can be a max # of weeks, say 18, after which there would need to be a specific criteria to meet (e.g. mother's health is at risk). I'm pro LGB but limited on T as I don't think the T rights should infringe on basic women's rights. To me sex and gender are two distinct items and while they line up 95% of the time there is a clear need to recognize the other 5% (no, I don't know what the actual numbers are so that's a guess). I'm pro voter ID but only if we ensure that everyone an get an ID in a simple, timely, and cheap manner. I can go on...

8 minutes ago, Procus said:

You and the other commies on this thread are talking about it nonstop because the Trump admin has egg on its face with this one. It's pretty much all you got.

ok, lets talk about all of the trade deals instead .... oh wait.

maybe the big beautiful bill that is going to add tons to our already horrible deficit?

how about medicaid recipients and robots picking our food?

i got it, can we talk about how trump ended the russia/ukraine conflict in 3days, but for reason keeps needing two more weeks?

or, we could discuss trump not even knowing what his people are doing, like stopping weapons deliveries behind his back.

feel like talking about the wasteful military parade that nobody attended?

3 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

I will agree with you on this point if we make it a comparison vs. the MAGA loons. However, I think it it quite a stretch to stamp the entire left with the idea that they can "be talked to". Yes, their positions are built from something tangible but a large chunk of people act in a dogmatic manner and don't genuinely engage in a real debate/discussion and as such they don't really "listen". That dogmatic approach is very symptomatic of a significant chunk of the far left over the last 20 years. I do think the trend has been moving in the other direction for a while now so I find that to be healthy.

The left has a real problem with group think. If you took the average woke stooge out of a college campus and asked them what they actually believe in I doubt they could form more than a few complete sentences. These people are low information (yeah I'll call them idiots) and just repeat the woke echo chamber talking points of privilege and social equity, which are real issues but they have no idea what any of it really means. But if you take that person out of the echo chamber and challenge their beliefs you can almost always end the conversation cordially, even if they never really allow themselves to be challenged. But, honestly, that's traditionally normal for most people. I have no issues, personally, with someone who's dug in on a position they think they're right on even if I think they're completely off the reservation. I don't think there's any sort of equivalence between them and a MAGA cult member who believes in NOTHING other than the most recent thing Trump told them to believe.

1 hour ago, mayanh8 said:

'll leave it here... I agree with 90% of what you post on here and I like you as a poster. The other 10% is nauseating and I can't even remotely understand the place it comes from.

Ok, that's fine and I am 100% aware that I can be rather grating at times or maybe a lot of the time.

Now let me just summarize where I stand on the Epstein list. First and foremost I would like it to be released. I think the victims deserve it and it would be good to reach closure on the topic even if that means some of our business/political icons will take a fall. When it comes to the Dems, I haven't and don't blame them for anything. I would have liked them to have pushed to get the info out but I'm not blaming them for not doing it. As for MAGA, they are a model of hypocrisy on this topic and with any luck it might actually weaken them a bit. As you and others have rightly pointed out, they campaigned on the topic and now just turn the other cheek. They should be called out at every turn. Finally, when I responded to Rambo, I genuinely only meant it be an explanation as to why the info has never seen the day of light. I was not doing a "both sider" there though I understand why you and others took it that way.

2 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

Ok, that's fine and I am 100% aware that I can be rather grating at times or maybe a lot of the time.

4 minutes ago, mayanh8 said:

The left has a real problem with group think. If you took the average woke stooge out of a college campus and asked them what they actually believe in I doubt they could form more than a few complete sentences. These people are low information (yeah I'll call them idiots) and just repeat the woke echo chamber talking points of privilege and social equity, which are real issues but they have no idea what any of it really means. But if you take that person out of the echo chamber and challenge their beliefs you can almost always end the conversation cordially, even if they never really allow themselves to be challenged. But, honestly, that's traditionally normal for most people. I have no issues, personally, with someone who's dug in on a position they think they're right on even if I think they're completely off the reservation. I don't think there's any sort of equivalence between them and a MAGA cult member who believes in NOTHING other than the most recent thing Trump told them to believe.

That's a fair take and I agree with what you say here but I do think the group think on the left is unhealthy for society. Again, not in comparison to the MAGA level of damage but damage none the less. I see no reason why both shouldn't be called out and I do my best now to make sure I give some indication of the different levels of bad as much as I can though I'm sure I fail to be clear in every post.