1 minute ago, vikas83 said:

The counterpoint would be that we've seen this offense excel (2022 and parts of 2024) with certain play callers (Steichen and Moore) and struggle with others. If the playbook was all crap and the play caller were irrelevant, then we wouldn't see a wide variety in outcomes like this. The drastic improvement when Nick handed over play calling in 2021 is evidence of this.

Even if you think the OC has no input on the play book and design (which I don't think is correct as things have evolved since 2021), the play caller has clearly had an impact.

To be fair, I think the line play is the biggest issue so far this year.

Give Patullo the 2024 offensive line, 2024 Saquon, and the 2024 running game, and the offense would look 98% the same. I'm not even saying Patullo is as good as Moore. Moore is a more experienced play caller. But it's easier to call plays when your running offense is destroying teams every week. The passing offense last season wasn't quite as bad as it was this season, but it still wasn't up to par. But if you gave Kellen Moore in 2024 this year's offensive line and rushing attack, and I think it would have affected the entire offense.

And btw the running game is Stoutland's thing. He's the running game coordinator.

3 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

If Sirianni had that much influence, you need to ask yourself why he decided to regress from our pass concepts last year to the slop we're seeing now. And please spare me the "hE dOeSnT TrUsT hUrTs!" nonsense, because he somehow trusted him to do it in '22 and '24 when Hurts was far more efficient through the air.

So then what else could be the difference? It's the OC, obviously. First time OC learning on the job in '23 and now again in '25. Sirianni and Hurts have been the constants, not the variables. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out, and it's alarming how often this has to be rehashed

The passing concepts are very largely the same as last season and have we already forgotten we were saying these same things last year after games? "No one's open!" "They can't scheme anyone open!"

WRs haven't been getting open as effectively, and the OL isn't blocking as effectively to protect Hurts enough to connect on some big plays.

There were not these amazing passing game design concepts that were present last season that aren't here this season. And Kevin Patullo was the passing game coordinator last season anyway, so even if you wanted to argue that, the logic doesn't hold up.

wrs have been getting open more than you say, hurts has missed them.

Why not just use Steichen's passing concepts? Both Smith and Brown were 1,000+ yard receivers under him with Hurts as the QB. Seems like a simple solution.

I think we are simplifying a complex problem

There are 7 or more big factors in an offense

1- The O-line (can't block anyone then its going to be a long day)

You can work around 1 or 2 weak spots like Big V in the Super Bowl.

2 - The scheme: Run game, pass game, philosophy, priorities (Bengals on one side with Greg Roman on the other side)

3 - The Xs and Os: The weekly game plan but also the trick plays and the taking advantage of what you see on film.

4 - The weapons: Can your guys get separation and catch the ball? Do they force double teams? Do they break tackles or outrun people? Can they win on most downs?

5 - The QB: Reading and recognition, timing, leading the team on the field. Making the plays but also not making the crushing mistakes.

6 - The coaching. Do you have a Stout? Do you have an Andy Reid style QB guru. Do you have a Kevin O'Connell type?

7 - The play caller. Is your guy good at chess or does he play checkers by hitting the board to watch the pieces jump?

We might have problems at 3 or 4 of the 7 but our current number 7 is an F- moron. A dog with buttons might mix it up better.

3 minutes ago, Sack that QB said:

Give Patullo the 2024 offensive line, 2024 Saquon, and the 2024 running game, and the offense would look 98% the same.

It really wouldn't. The play design and route concepts speak for themselves. And it's right there in black and white every week when you look at how everything unfolds when a pass play is called. There's a reason why every analyst and pundit (who knows what they're talking about) are pointing it out too. What's more likely, that they're all wrong and you're right? Or that their analysis of the actual passing plays being run on the field is indicative of the difference we've seen from last season to now?

14 minutes ago, vikas83 said:

Even more of a reason for them to lean on Henry

last year the oline was routinely knocking dlines backwards and barkley wasn't touched until he got to or beyond the linebackers. this season the oline is getting pushed around and barkley is getting hit in the backfield too many times.

these players and stoutland didn't suddenly start to suck. injuries are killing them right now.

1 minute ago, we_gotta_believe said:

It really wouldn't. The play design and route concepts speak for themselves. And it's right there in black and white every week when you look at how everything unfolds when a pass play is called. There's a reason why every analyst and pundit (who knows what they're talking about) are pointing it out too. What's more likely, that they're all wrong and you're right? Or that their analysis of the actual passing plays being run on the field is indicative of the difference we've seen from last season to now?

The play design and route concepts were largely the same last season. And like I said, if you think they were that much better last season, then that would be on Kevin Patullo because he was the passing game coordinator last season and this season it's Parks Frazier. So if you do believe that last season the Eagles were using these innovative passing concepts that they aren't this season, then your culprit this year is Parks Frazier, not Patullo.

But the passing game concepts were an issue last season as well. I can't tell you how many videos I watched of film geeks breaking down and eviscerating last year's "baffling" passing concepts.

So anyway, Parks Frazier is the guy you should be going after.

8 minutes ago, Sack that QB said:

The passing concepts are very largely the same as last season

But they're not. Especially on obvious passing downs. But even setting those aside, how do you explain the drop off in RPOs? It's not just marginal, it's a massive difference. And to be clear, by passing concepts, I don't just mean route combos, or philosophies. I mean formation shifting, motion, tendency breakers, etc. If you're under center more often and almost exclusively running from that set, that becomes a pretty obvious tell to even the most unseasoned of DCs. So no, these just aren't the same concepts no matter how many times you repeat it.

1 minute ago, Sack that QB said:

The play design and route concepts were largely the same last season.

I wasn't sure if it was just pure speculation or informed knowledge, but EJ Smith wondered if Dickerson will never heal up during the season or if he'll need surgery after the season. But he already had surgery on his knee. Unless he meant the back. So I don't know. I'm guessing just speculation.

Wish we got clarity on wtf is going on with Carter's shoulder though. But they'll never tell us.

16 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

I think we are simplifying a complex problem

There are 7 or more big factors in an offense

1- The O-line (can't block anyone then its going to be a long day)

You can work around 1 or 2 weak spots like Big V in the Super Bowl.

2 - The scheme: Run game, pass game, philosophy, priorities (Bengals on one side with Greg Roman on the other side)

3 - The Xs and Os: The weekly game plan but also the trick plays and the taking advantage of what you see on film.

4 - The weapons: Can your guys get separation and catch the ball? Do they force double teams? Do they break tackles or outrun people? Can they win on most downs?

5 - The QB: Reading and recognition, timing, leading the team on the field. Making the plays but also not making the crushing mistakes.

6 - The coaching. Do you have a Stout? Do you have an Andy Reid style QB guru. Do you have a Kevin O'Connell type?

7 - The play caller. Is your guy good at chess or does he play checkers by hitting the board to watch the pieces jump?

We might have problems at 3 or 4 of the 7 but our current number 7 is an F- moron. A dog with buttons might mix it up better.

If it is the OL they may need to suck it up for a few weeks without LD. It's not working now and it won't get better if he keeps aggravating his back. They shouldn't have let him fight through it to start the season. Rest him until after the BYE and take your chances. Hope he comes back ready for the stretch run.

23 minutes ago, Alpha_TATEr said:

wrs have been getting open more than you say, hurts has missed them.

1 hour ago, Diehardfan said:

His quotes gave me the same impression, but then I thought, its probably/hopefully just coach speak. He's not going to give us the nuts and bolts of what went wrong and how they'll fix it. Vague answers are expected, often shrouded in positivity which comes off as naivety.

1 hour ago, Sack that QB said:

Because it's not Patullo's offense. This isn't a situation like when Kyle Shanahan was in Atlanta that it was entirely his offense and scheme for example with a defensive head coach.

People made this mistake in 2023 blaming everything on Brian Johnson. It was stupid then, and subsequently proven wrong, and it's stupid now. I'm not saying he has zero culpability, but it's absurd that everyone is blaming Kevin Fing Patullo for the offensive problem. Just ridiculous. It's because people don't want to accept that there are deeper issues at play here and more issues at play. Just blaming one guy is easy.

yeah...I would like to see some evidence to support your claim. I want to know based on your thesis who in their right mind is calling a between the tackles run from a vanilla formation with 9 in the box. That is not a consensus decision ...that falls on an individual. Who is calling those types of plays...it is happening over and over again...it is mindless.

1 minute ago, RememberTheKoy said:

and hurts is missing him at times when he's open.

Practice window open for nakobe ? Didn’t look anywhere near to returning

I am wondering if a possible solution is to put Patullo up in the press box. I think he needs to get a different perspective.

7 minutes ago, aptosbird said:

yeah...I would like to see some evidence to support your claim. I want to know based on your thesis who in their right mind is calling a between the tackles run from a vanilla formation with 9 in the box. That is not a consensus decision ...that falls on an individual. Who is calling those types of plays...it is happening over and over again...it is mindless.

I didn't say his play calling has been amazing. The coward's draws being the worst. But even with those, the Eagles as a coaching staff comb through everything during the week that they want to do during games. They have a big coaching staff plus Sirianni who's an offensive head coach. Do you think that they have an amazing game plan set up during the week and then Patullo goes into the game and just goes rogue calling dumb stuff and if that were the case that Sirianni would be stupid or weak enough not to demand he change it? Sirianni's the head coach man, this is his football team. He's responsible for almost everything that happens on game day. And Stout is the run game coordinator.

The Eagles have all these coaches who go into a larger pie and Patullo is the only one being trashed. If people want to say Patullo hasn't been doing a good job, then fine, but to say that without acknowledging the other offensive coaches is unfair.

11 minutes ago, Alpha_TATEr said:

and hurts is missing him at times when he's open.

He has 69.3% completion this season.

It looked like the heat was definitely a factor in the game. I'm pretty sure I saw Davis taking a play off on the second 75 yard TD.

Also Lane looked way too comfortable sitting on the sidelines for whatever reason he decided to take a break.

Don't taze me bro.

11 minutes ago, rrfierce said:

Practice window open for nakobe ? Didn’t look anywhere near to returning

Not yet. You'll know tomorrow. Vic said this week or next he'll start practicing.