Our Offense SUCKS ... and It’s Not Just Wentz

[kentwo]

Right now, I'm more excited about see these names rather than the offense. 

As long as they get rid of Howie. 

 

[Muz86]

5 hours ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

I used to feel bad for what McNabb had to throw to, then the last two seasons happened.  Wentz has no chance.

Ok we have crap receivers who struggle to get open. But when they do get open, what’s the excuse for missing them by sailing balls 5 yards over their head or behind them or in front of them and so on?

[UK_EaglesFan89]

I think changes are coming. 

There's no way Lurie is going to sit back and watch this garbage continue. 

Let's not forget Lurie right now is putting a lot of money in to this organisation and his returns from down because there's no fans in the stadium. So right now he's putting money in to a sinking ship. And we know Lurie will get involved if he feels he has to. 

The offense has been stale for over 2 years. We made excuses, we came up with logical reasons for those struggles but to be honest i think the truth is Doug isn't a great offensive mind. So either he moves aside or gives up play calling duties and let's all these other offensive minded coaches take over. 

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

3 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I think changes are coming. 

There's no way Lurie is going to sit back and watch this garbage continue. 

Let's not forget Lurie right now is putting a lot of money in to this organisation and his returns from down because there's no fans in the stadium. So right now he's putting money in to a sinking ship. And we know Lurie will get involved if he feels he has to. 

The offense has been stale for over 2 years. We made excuses, we came up with logical reasons for those struggles but to be honest i think the truth is Doug isn't a great offensive mind. So either he moves aside or gives up play calling duties and let's all these other offensive minded coaches take over. 

I feel confident that none of this will happen.

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

4 hours ago, Muz86 said:

Ok we have crap receivers who struggle to get open. But when they do get open, what’s the excuse for missing them by sailing balls 5 yards over their head or behind them or in front of them and so on?

Will "Wentz needs to improve his game, too" suffice? Or are you looking for some ridiculous hot take?

[time2rock]

4 hours ago, Muz86 said:

Ok we have crap receivers who struggle to get open. But when they do get open, what’s the excuse for missing them by sailing balls 5 yards over their head or behind them or in front of them and so on?

To be fair, the thread title does include, "and it's not just Wentz" (obviously assuming many already are pointing fingers at Wentz for his horrid play).  

[nipples]

Here is my argument though, if Wentz can’t even execute the simple vanilla stuff right now, what makes you think he’d be able to execute a more exotic/creative offense? I think the coaches are dumbing things down because Carson is just so bad right now. 

[time2rock]

2 minutes ago, nipples said:

Here is my argument though, if Wentz can’t even execute the simple vanilla stuff right now, what makes you think he’d be able to execute a more exotic/creative offense? I think the coaches are dumbing things down because Carson is just so bad right now. 

It does make you wonder if he is having a hard time picking up the new tweaks/wrinkles they are trying to incorporate into their offense.  Maybe hiring so many new offensive coaches/consultants is overcomplicating the process.  I really wish we would have just hired a respected OC (after firing Groh ... heck before hiring Groh) and allow him to call the offense.  

[nipples]

7 minutes ago, time2rock said:

It does make you wonder if he is having a hard time picking up the new tweaks/wrinkles they are trying to incorporate into their offense.  Maybe hiring so many new offensive coaches/consultants is overcomplicating the process.  I really wish we would have just hired a respected OC (after firing Groh ... heck before hiring Groh) and allow him to call the offense.  

Yeah could very well be. Carson is just struggling so bad with reading the defense and making decisions, that I think a complex offense would be even more of a disaster. 
 

Aside from Wentz, another big part may be that Ward and JJ (lol) are your most experienced WRs right now... so yeah, asking that WR room to learn a complicated offense could be troublesome. 

[Penn7980]

9 hours ago, Green_Guinness said:

Doug Pederson - Head Coach and play caller on game days

Duce Staley - Asst. Head Coach/RB Coach

Rich Scangarello - Senior Offensive Asst.

Jeff Stoutland - OL Coach/Run Game Coordinator

Press Taylor - Passing Game Coordinator/QB Coach

Justin Peelle - TE Coach

Aaron Moorehead - WR Coach

Marty Mornhinweg - Senior Offensive Consultant

TJ Paganetti - Asst. Run Game Coordinator/Asst. RB Coach

Andrew Breiner - Pass Game Analyst

Mike Bartrum - Asst. TE Coach

Matthew Harper - Asst. WR Coach

Roy Istvan - Asst. OL Coach

 

That's all the Eagles coaches on O.  I think the issue is the 2 bolded, where normally it would be 1 OC instead of whatever their titles mean.  And from the speculation of the beat writers it seems Duce also has input in some capacity as part of the OC 'team' and how knows how much input Taylor has.  

For 2016 and 2017 I do think Doug called the plays as he stated he would in his first PC as HC.  I also believe Reich was the one who designed the O and the plays so Doug had a cache of really good, creative and well designed plays to choose from on game days where now he has mundane mediocre plays to choose from.  I don't think Doug's strength is as a play designer like Reich was and he needs that other component to make his job easier.  Without it he's shown he's lost in the woods.  This experiment of multiple O coaches collaborating isn't working.  Yes, Wentz has missed plays and we're back to having Ward as our most dependable WR, but maybe one of the reasons Wentz plays like his head is about to explode is because he has too many coaches in his ear telling him to do too many things too differently?  Are they all on the same page with how the O is supposed to work?  Somehow I doubt it.  They need one OC who can design creative attacking O plays who can work well with Wentz and Doug.  Until that happens I don't think this will get any better.

 

There are too many offensive ideas that do not condense into a solid and focus game plan.  If Doug is unable to make use of all the ideas, he is better off to shed some of the inputs and go with his own ideas.  Reich was a key ingredient who could handle that task.  We lack that function at the moment.  An OC should help to coordinate all those different ideas.

MM never left an impression as an innovative coach when he was here.  His position is based on mostly the relationship with the HCs.  His own HC job did not have a good record.  Don't know the Rich guy whose credential is his past association of other named coach.  Keep all your buddies, but if they can't contribute, keep them at arm's length.

Duce and Stoutland have some conflicting duties on the run game.  Who decides the run game plan for each game and call run play?

Since they added a bunch of young and speedy receivers, the offense is trying their hardest to use those guys.  The lack of pre-season workouts did not give the coaches the chance to evaluate them to know who does what best and how to create plays incorporated in the overall scheme.

 

[time2rock]

20 minutes ago, Penn7980 said:

There are too many offensive ideas that do not condense into a solid and focus game plan.  If Doug is unable to make use of all the ideas, he is better off to shed some of the inputs and go with his own ideas.  Reich was a key ingredient who could handle that task.  We lack that function at the moment.  An OC should help to coordinate all those different ideas.

MM never left an impression as an innovative coach when he was here.  His position is based on mostly the relationship with the HCs.  His own HC job did not have a good record.  Don't know the Rich guy whose credential is his past association of other named coach.  Keep all your buddies, but if they can't contribute, keep them at arm's length.

Duce and Stoutland have some conflicting duties on the run game.  Who decides the run game plan for each game and call run play?

Since they added a bunch of young and speedy receivers, the offense is trying their hardest to use those guys.  The lack of pre-season workouts did not give the coaches the chance to evaluate them to know who does what best and how to create plays incorporated in the overall scheme.

 

IIRC Marty was hired because of his work with Lamar Jackson and Scangarello because of his work under Kyle Shanahan.  Never liked Marty when he was here previously and think they are making too much out of his influence on Jackson's development.  You could probably attribute his development more to Urban (his QB coach) and Roman (their current OC).  

Anyway, it does seem like this is a case of "too many chefs in the kitchen" situation here.  

[eglz1]

16 minutes ago, nipples said:

Yeah could very well be. Carson is just struggling so bad with reading the defense and making decisions, that I think a complex offense would be even more of a disaster. 
 

Aside from Wentz, another big part may be that Ward and JJ (lol) are your most experienced WRs right now... so yeah, asking that WR room to learn a complicated offense could be troublesome. 

We don't know what Wentz is being told or how he's being coached. The offense committee might be asking him to do stuff that he's not good at. There's a philosophy that says call stuff that you know your QB/team is good at. Don't ask them to do stuff that is too complicated or they're simply not good at. Are the Eagles offense committee familiar with that concept? During the 2nd half of the Bengals game Carson was leaving the pocket and running when it made sense. I don't recall seeing that much in the first two games. I wonder how that went over with the offense committee.

[EaglesfanfromND]

Doug needs to give up the play calling or go be a coordinator somewhere else. We are never going to get a decent OC if they aren't allowed to call the plays. Right now there's no #1 person leading the offense. Too many indians and no chief. The OC by committee approach just doesn't work and I can't understand why Doug thought it would be a good idea. There's no coordination between QB, WR's, TE's, RB's and oline. It's like they are doing their own thing and no one is in sync. It's been that way since Reich left, everyone can see it but Doug!

[Portyansky]

12 hours ago, D-Shiznit said:

No amount of creativity is gonna change the fact that Wentz is missing wide open targets, he can't even hit a screen pass on the money.

100% this^^^^

Yes, play calling may be blah. Doug can't throw the ball for Wentz too

[Captain F]

The Eagles offense consist of 4 plays

Run up the middle and pray

Slow developing sweep runs to the sidelines

Short passes into heavy traffic

Heaving the ball 40 yards downfield,  usually over a WR's head by 5-10 yards

Rinse. Repeat. 

 

[EagleJoe8]

30 minutes ago, What The F said:

The Eagles offense consist of 4 plays

Run up the middle and pray

Slow developing sweep runs to the sidelines

Short passes into heavy traffic

Heaving the ball 40 yards downfield,  usually over a WR's head by 5-10 yards

Rinse. Repeat. 

 

Don’t forget screen passes that get 3 yards on 3rd and long. One of my personal favorites. 

[EagleVA]

12 hours ago, kentwo said:

Doug's play calling is definitely an issue. 

The poor drafting and weak talent might be forcing his hand, but you watch other NFL games and the use of motion to create mismatches and openings stands out when compared to watching Eagle's games. 

Andy Reid has been around forever, but he is still a master at keeping things fresh and innovating his offensive calls. 

All of these AR kudos' are misdirected, did you guys forget his play calling when he was in Philadelphia?

The key to AR's success has been KC not letting him chose the players and handing that duty over to Brett Veach.

Veach knows the value of speed, that's why is offense is loaded with it. 

At the WR position they had the following speed on the field last night, Hardman (4.33),  Hill (4.29) and  Watkins (4.37).

Compare that to our lethargic WRs of Jackson, Whiteside, Ward, Burnett and Hightower.

You want better play calling, quit with the 2 TE BS and put your speed on the field. 

This means getting the following ON THE FIELD ASAP,  Reagor, Watkins, Huntley, and Killings, I guarantee you the "play calling" will look a lot better.

[EaglesfanfromND]

27 minutes ago, Eldereagle1 said:

Everything about this team conjures images of the Eagles’ initial success and eventual demise under Ray Rhodes. He lost the team after a couple of promising seasons and their uninspired play was the result. And here we are again. It’s time to take the SB blinders off and make changes. Howie, Doug, and Jim all need to go. I’d even be ok with Duce as the interim HC to see what he can do with this band of bedraggled practice squad members, injury tent campers, and has-beens. 

I gotta admit it would be interesting to see what would happen if Duce was interim HC and he made one of the "offensive assistants" the OC and play caller. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

5 hours ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

I feel confident that none of this will happen.

So you think Lurie will allow this mess to just continue?

[[TSM]_PimpDaddyPain]

15 hours ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

I used to feel bad for what McNabb had to throw to, then the last two seasons happened.  Wentz has no chance.

The injuries and poor playcalling definitely aren't his fault, but missing wide open receivers and throwing picks is. 

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

3 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

So you think Lurie will allow this mess to just continue?

Correct.  I see no way that your projected outcome occurs without complete and utter failure this year AND next.  Lurie has shown to be a intelligent, patient, and loyal man (unlike most of this board) and that has led to years of NFL success.  

[time2rock]

1 minute ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

Correct.  I see no way that your projected outcome occurs without complete and utter failure this year AND next.  Lurie has shown to be a intelligent, patient, and loyal man (unlike most of this board) and that has led to years of NFL success.  

I have to agree ... even though I am extremely frustrated with everything and also feel some big changes are needed I just don't see it happening any time soon for the reasons you stated above.  

[hputenis]

10 hours ago, nipples said:

Yeah could very well be. Carson is just struggling so bad with reading the defense and making decisions, that I think a complex offense would be even more of a disaster. 
 

Aside from Wentz, another big part may be that Ward and JJ (lol) are your most experienced WRs right now... so yeah, asking that WR room to learn a complicated offense could be troublesome. 

This is what is so confusing to me.  He's been a downright disaster up to this point, especially with reading defenses.  I wish we could all know what was going on inside his head right now, because this has to be completely psychological.  I'm sure he's pissed off at the play calling, the lack of talent around him, and people dropping like flies, but he is still a complete mess.  

He came into the league viewed as a brilliant guy who had the mantel capability to dissect defenses and make good decisions.  I know that isn't always full proof, but then he proved that he could do it.......multiple times.  All of 2017, end of last year, and plenty of other times during his career.  Hell, I can even point to his 2nd game ever in the NFL against the Bears.  He ran an up tempo, no huddle, empty backfield offense and marched right down Soldier Field making quick decisions and reads on the first drive.  

Right now, they need to fix his mechanics and focus on moving the pocket for him A LOT.  I don't see how else they fix it.....especially if our "stud" RB now apparently gets fatigued in the 2nd quarter.  

 

[Talonblood]

20 hours ago, Green_Guinness said:

Doug Pederson - Head Coach and play caller on game days

Duce Staley - Asst. Head Coach/RB Coach

Rich Scangarello - Senior Offensive Asst.

Jeff Stoutland - OL Coach/Run Game Coordinator

Press Taylor - Passing Game Coordinator/QB Coach

Justin Peelle - TE Coach

Aaron Moorehead - WR Coach

Marty Mornhinweg - Senior Offensive Consultant

TJ Paganetti - Asst. Run Game Coordinator/Asst. RB Coach

Andrew Breiner - Pass Game Analyst

Mike Bartrum - Asst. TE Coach

Matthew Harper - Asst. WR Coach

Roy Istvan - Asst. OL Coach

 

That's all the Eagles coaches on O.  I think the issue is the 2 bolded, where normally it would be 1 OC instead of whatever their titles mean.  And from the speculation of the beat writers it seems Duce also has input in some capacity as part of the OC 'team' and how knows how much input Taylor has.  

For 2016 and 2017 I do think Doug called the plays as he stated he would in his first PC as HC.  I also believe Reich was the one who designed the O and the plays so Doug had a cache of really good, creative and well designed plays to choose from on game days where now he has mundane mediocre plays to choose from.  I don't think Doug's strength is as a play designer like Reich was and he needs that other component to make his job easier.  Without it he's shown he's lost in the woods.  This experiment of multiple O coaches collaborating isn't working.  Yes, Wentz has missed plays and we're back to having Ward as our most dependable WR, but maybe one of the reasons Wentz plays like his head is about to explode is because he has too many coaches in his ear telling him to do too many things too differently?  Are they all on the same page with how the O is supposed to work?  Somehow I doubt it.  They need one OC who can design creative attacking O plays who can work well with Wentz and Doug.  Until that happens I don't think this will get any better.

 

My 25 include the ones that are hidden in plain sight. 😆 I just have to keep my number at 25. It keeps the exaggeration clean.

[time2rock]

39 minutes ago, hputenis said:

This is what is so confusing to me.  He's been a downright disaster up to this point, especially with reading defenses.  I wish we could all know what was going on inside his head right now, because this has to be completely psychological.  I'm sure he's pissed off at the play calling, the lack of talent around him, and people dropping like flies, but he is still a complete mess.  

He came into the league viewed as a brilliant guy who had the mantel capability to dissect defenses and make good decisions.  I know that isn't always full proof, but then he proved that he could do it.......multiple times.  All of 2017, end of last year, and plenty of other times during his career.  Hell, I can even point to his 2nd game ever in the NFL against the Bears.  He ran an up tempo, no huddle, empty backfield offense and marched right down Soldier Field making quick decisions and reads on the first drive.  

Right now, they need to fix his mechanics and focus on moving the pocket for him A LOT.  I don't see how else they fix it.....especially if our "stud" RB now apparently gets fatigued in the 2nd quarter.  

 

People just love to downplay just how important Flip and Reich were to this organization.  Not only were they both integral parts in working with Doug to come up with a really good game plan each week and coming up with some really creative play design ideas together but I firmly believe those 2 were more instrumental in Wentz’s early development than anyone else.  Wentz was yet an "unfinished product” when they left after his 2nd year and quite honestly (judging by results) Press Taylor doesn’t appear to be anywhere near the level of experience to offer the help Wentz needs to get his career back on track.  Taylor as a QB coach is the same as having Groh as OC.  I swear Doug’s ability to assemble a competent staff is as bad as Andy’s was toward the end of his tenure here.  They both had strong initial staffs that went downhill in time ... Doug’s just went south much quicker.  The whole new offensive staff he assembled is a complete joke.  (Tangent:  just hire a f***** competent OC already and relinquish play-calling duties because Doug you SUCK at it as you’ve pretty much demonstrated over the past 2 years!!).