1 minute ago, VanHammersly said:

Absolutely.

How so? 

Just now, Paul852 said:

That's not the point and you know that.

Sure it is. I'm a huge mask enthusiast, trust me, maybe the biggest one on this board. But acting like a mask mandate would have solved all our problems isn't it. We've seen record numbers in many European countries that have mask mandates recently. Huge rise. We simply don't understand to what extent masks effect the numbers.

Just now, vikas83 said:

Yes. Because we would have dealt with this better, have more robust testing and much wider adoption of masks. The initial hit to the economy and jobs was unavoidable, but with real leadership we would actually have rebounded faster and not be staring a second wave in the face. 

Look at things like air travel in China and Europe -- bounced back much harder than here.

Aside from masks I don’t think there’s anything Biden would have done differently. Tests weren’t available early on. I don’t see what trump could have done differently about that. 

1 minute ago, vikas83 said:

Yes. Because we would have dealt with this better, have more robust testing and much wider adoption of masks. The initial hit to the economy and jobs was unavoidable, but with real leadership we would actually have rebounded faster and not be staring a second wave in the face. 

Look at things like air travel in China and Europe -- bounced back much harder than here.

China had ridiculously stringent lockdowns that I'm pretty sure no one would support here (even hardcore leftists, I'd hope) and Europe is facing a second wave. This analysis falls flat, vikas.

8 minutes ago, Kz! said:

The virus is rising dramatically in Europe and in many areas of the US despite mask mandates. They aren't some silver bullet that stops the virus.

of course masks aren't a cure, numnutz...but they are one simple thing everyone can do to help slow the spread.  trumpers are the ones resisting mask wearing in this country...and it's because their cult leader selfishly (and stupidly) resisted them from day 1. 

 

US officials warned the White House that Russian intelligence was using Rudy Giuliani to funnel disinformation to Trump

One source told The Post that the message to Trump was, "Do what you want to do, but your friend Rudy has been worked by Russian assets in Ukraine."

When Trump was told that Giuliani was a target for Russian intelligence, he shrugged and said, "That's Rudy," according to The Post. 

https://www.businessinsider.com/officials-told-white-house-russian-intelligence-targeted-rudy-giuliani-report-2020-10 

1 minute ago, mr_hunt said:

of course masks aren't a cure, numnutz...but they are one simple thing everyone can do to help slow the spread.  trumpers are the ones resisting mask wearing in this country...and it's because their cult leader selfishly (and stupidly) resisted them from day 1. 

 

Sure it's definitely only trumpbots who don't want to wear masks. lmao, great content.

Just now, 20dawk4life said:

Aside from masks I don’t think there’s anything Biden would have done differently. Tests weren’t available early on. I don’t see what trump could have done differently about that. 

Masks would have made a huge difference. It's why Europe had a more normal summer. I know Trumpbots like to scream about Europe flaring back up, but that's off a low base of new infections and deaths. Being up 2,500% in the UK sounds like its awful, until you realize that they had 138 deaths on 10/15 vs. us losing over 1,000 per day. They got down to the single digits in the summer before the second wave began.

On tests we could have had an actual national strategy, used the DPA, allowed the CDC and others to marshal significant resources. Instead we botched the initial tests, never focused on ramping up production, and failed miserably. I'm a staunch libertarian, but this is one of the few times that called for actual leadership and coordination from the federal government to deal with an existential threat. Instead we let the 50 states play Lord of the Flies, fighting for supplies and bidding each other up.

Finally, Presidential leadership matters. When the moron-in-chief is tweeting "Liberate Michigan" and saying it is going away, his sycophants and acolytes decided to re-open too fast to please dear leader. So DeSantis acts like a moron and causes a new outbreak in Florida. Had Trump taken this seriously and leveled with people, he would have given GOP governors the political cover they needed. Instead, he did the exact opposite.

7 minutes ago, Kz! said:

Sure it is. I'm a huge mask enthusiast, trust me, maybe the biggest one on this board. But acting like a mask mandate would have solved all our problems isn't it. We've seen record numbers in many European countries that have mask mandates recently. Huge rise. We simply don't understand to what extent masks effect the numbers.

I highly doubt anybody is claiming that. "Better" is the word.

7 minutes ago, Kz! said:

China had ridiculously stringent lockdowns that I'm pretty sure no one would support here (even hardcore leftists, I'd hope) and Europe is facing a second wave. This analysis falls flat, vikas.

Europe's second wave pales in comparison to ours because of what they did. 

Your talking point falls flat again, Kz. Maybe go back to posting random tweets about crimes in the African-American community and leave the adult conversations to others.

1 minute ago, Kz! said:

Sure it's definitely only trumpbots who don't want to wear masks. lmao, great content.

You'd be pretty naive to think they aren't a large part of the anti-mask crew.

18 minutes ago, Kz! said:

The virus is rising dramatically in Europe and in many areas of the US despite mask mandates. They aren't some silver bullet that stops the virus.

Yeah because there's no middle ground between silver bullet and 200k dead. Good call, KKKz.

18 minutes ago, 20dawk4life said:

Aside from masks I don’t think there’s anything Biden would have done differently. Tests weren’t available early on. I don’t see what trump could have done differently about that. 

Masks alone would have made a big difference. 

Trump could have led by example, and unified the nation in defeating this virus. He incorrectly saw this virus as a threat to his re-election. On the contrary: it was an opportunity for him to show the nation that he could lead, and would have cemented his re-election.

If he had been a sober leader, steadfast in leading us through a crisis, leading by example on masks and deftly synthesizing what the science says with workable public policy, and united the nation to fight this thing, he would have been overwhelmingly re-elected.

Instead, he chose to downplay it. To call it a hoax. To call it a problem for blue states. He politicized masks. He supported armed militias storming the state capitol building in Michigan, calling on his supporters to "LIBERATE MICHIGAN!", and then acted shocked when militias actually listened and conspired to kidnap the governor.

This has exposed him. He is not a leader, he is a follower; his moves are 100% dictated by the stock market and by what he believes his followers want to hear. Rather than "telling them like it is" and being an actual leader in a crisis, he takes cues from his supporters and doubles-down on what he thinks will re-affirm his support from them.

Again, this is not leadership. This is following - and it is why populism always fails. Because when there is an actual crisis, you need actual leadership, and that means making hard decisions that may go against what your "followers" want. But that is what we demand of our leaders.

And Trump has utterly failed in this duty. 

23 minutes ago, Kz! said:

Nope. Trump's right to point out that Biden and the dems criticized him for banning travel to China. They've all gone on record as saying they would have been slower to react initially. That said, any mitigation efforts that would have real effects on deaths by nature will hurt the economy. So again, it's a balancing act. You can't have your cake in this situation and eat it too.

Earlier I said Trump was the dumbest MFer alive, but I might have to reconsider that. You actually might be dumber.

He also didn't let the CDC hold once presser.  Not one.  Spread, mask, whatever, he listened to NO ONE and spewed out all kinds of nonsense and his spin on this virus  is absolutely an abomination. THAT's why he doesn't deserve a 2nd term.  He is a seriously flawed individual that won't listen to ANYONE.  That is so far off the mark, I just don't know why people worship him, or support him.  He's a total ...............................well freak of nature.  He needs to go.

Here.  READ this.  If he doesn't STFU about the travel ban I'm going to lose my mind:

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-ban-travel-china-pandemic/#:~:text=In%20February%202020%2C%20U.S.%20President%20Donald%20Trump%20enforced,from%20the%20spread%20of%20COVID-19%20in%20the%20U.S.

Just to put an end to this stupid talking point, let's use pictures that will be easy for Trumpbots to follow. 

Here's the daily death count in the UK:

So they spiked to over 1,000 a day in April, but were IN THE SINGLE DIGITS IN AUGUST. 

Now, the USA:

So while the UK got down to the single digits, our nadir was ~250 in late June and then we started grinding higher. That's the whole point, we never got down to the low levels of Europe. We have ~5x the UK population, so when they were at 5-10, we should have been 25-50, but we were 10X HIGHER THAN THAT. And the UK is the most comparable country to us (same language, same basic legal system, etc.). But let's look at some other graphs for fun.

Canada:

 

France:

Spain (which every points to as a disaster):

Italy:

 

So yes, Europe is "spiking" but off a low base. We never achieved that low base. Screaming about how Europe is spiking and trying to prove that reflects a good job by the Trump administration is like someone who is 300 pounds gaining 50 pounds and saying "yeah, but that guy who is my height and went from 100 to 130 pounds spiked 30% and I only went up 16%." Yeah, but you're still an obese 350 lb slob and the other guy is still much healthier.

So the bombshell was such a dud that we've pivoted to whether masks work . This Fing place. 

14 minutes ago, 20dawk4life said:

Aside from masks I don’t think there’s anything Biden would have done differently. Tests weren’t available early on. I don’t see what trump could have done differently about that. 

We aren't just talking about the early response, because if you did, you'd have to wonder whether it was prudent to disband the CDC's pandemic response team a year ago, or whether being a bit more forthcoming about the situation with the American public would've prevented many of those early deaths. 

But more so, the real damage was done in the April until present time frame. How many times has the CDC and FDA been undermined in that timeframe? How many times has he sparred with his own taskforce? How many times has he stated he asked to slow down testing? How many times has he sparred with governors to the point where a coordinated response to provide ventilators and PPE was non-existent and they had to bid against each other in an attempt to side-step aid that shoud've been coming federally? How many times has he gone on TV and said the most absolutely ridiculous ish instead of providing actual fact-based guidance to the public on how to properly protect themselves? And worst of all, back in early April, when there was a proposal on the table to send everyone 5 masks when there where mass shortages, guess who scrapped it out of fear of inciting "panic"?

Look, this isn't some subjective TDS-based whining from lefties about stuff that doesn't have any clear impact on our lives. These are objective facts about what has transpired, and the impact on us has been immense. Unspeakably so for those who have lost their lives and their families. 

18 minutes ago, Paul852 said:

You'd be pretty naive to think they aren't a large part of the anti-mask crew.

dipsheet loves to throw in the word "only" and build himself a strawman.  of course trumpers make up most of the anti-maskers.  trump himself is one of them.  

 

20 minutes ago, vikas83 said:

Masks would have made a huge difference. It's why Europe had a more normal summer. I know Trumpbots like to scream about Europe flaring back up, but that's off a low base of new infections and deaths. Being up 2,500% in the UK sounds like its awful, until you realize that they had 138 deaths on 10/15 vs. us losing over 1,000 per day. They got down to the single digits in the summer before the second wave began.

On tests we could have had an actual national strategy, used the DPA, allowed the CDC and others to marshal significant resources. Instead we botched the initial tests, never focused on ramping up production, and failed miserably. I'm a staunch libertarian, but this is one of the few times that called for actual leadership and coordination from the federal government to deal with an existential threat. Instead we let the 50 states play Lord of the Flies, fighting for supplies and bidding each other up.

Finally, Presidential leadership matters. When the moron-in-chief is tweeting "Liberate Michigan" and saying it is going away, his sycophants and acolytes decided to re-open too fast to please dear leader. So DeSantis acts like a moron and causes a new outbreak in Florida. Had Trump taken this seriously and leveled with people, he would have given GOP governors the political cover they needed. Instead, he did the exact opposite.

I get all that but I think the biggest difference is Americans are morons have to have their freedumb. Just talking with people in Europe vs being in the US I can see a difference in the public’s mind set regardless of poor leadership in those countries or not. 

10 minutes ago, vikas83 said:

So yes, Europe is "spiking" but off a low base. We never achieved that low base. Screaming about how Europe is spiking and trying to prove that reflects a good job by the Trump administration is like someone who is 300 pounds gaining 50 pounds and saying "yeah, but that guy who is my height and went from 100 to 130 pounds spiked 30% and I only went up 16%." Yeah, but you're still an obese 350 lb slob and the other guy is still much healthier.

Such a fitting comparison for Kz

19 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

Masks alone would have made a big difference. 

Trump could have led by example, and unified the nation in defeating this virus. He incorrectly saw this virus as a threat to his re-election. On the contrary: it was an opportunity for him to show the nation that he could lead, and would have cemented his re-election.

If he had been a sober leader, steadfast in leading us through a crisis, leading by example on masks and deftly synthesizing what the science says with workable public policy, and united the nation to fight this thing, he would have been overwhelmingly re-elected.

Instead, he chose to downplay it. To call it a hoax. To call it a problem for blue states. He politicized masks. He supported armed militias storming the state capitol building in Michigan, calling on his supporters to "LIBERATE MICHIGAN!", and then acted shocked when militias actually listened and conspired to kidnap the governor.

This has exposed him. He is not a leader, he is a follower; his moves are 100% dictated by the stock market and by what he believes his followers want to hear. Rather than "telling them like it is" and being an actual leader in a crisis, he takes cues from his supporters and doubles-down on what he thinks will re-affirm his support from them.

Again, this is not leadership. This is following - and it is why populism always fails. Because when there is an actual crisis, you need actual leadership, and that means making hard decisions that may go against what your "followers" want. But that is what we demand of our leaders.

And Trump has utterly failed in this duty. 

I’d agree but I don’t think Biden would have changed anything because the morons doing what you listed would still have done it but in defiance of a President Biden. I blame the morons more than any president. 

11 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

We aren't just talking about the early response, because if you did, you'd have to wonder whether it was prudent to disband the CDC's pandemic response team a year ago, or whether being a bit more forthcoming about the situation with the American public would've prevented many of those early deaths. 

But more so, the real damage was done in the April until present time frame. How many times has the CDC and FDA been undermined in that timeframe? How many times has he sparred with his own taskforce? How many times has he stated he asked to slow down testing? How many times has he sparred with governors to the point where a coordinated response to provide ventilators and PPE was non-existent and they had to bid against each other in an attempt to side-step aid that shoud've been coming federally? How many times has he gone on TV and said the most absolutely ridiculous ish instead of providing actual fact-based guidance to the public on how to properly protect themselves? And worst of all, back in early April, when there was a proposal on the table to send everyone 5 masks when there where mass shortages, guess who scrapped it out of fear of inciting "panic"?

Look, this isn't some subjective TDS-based whining from lefties about stuff that doesn't have any clear impact on our lives. These are objective facts about what has transpired, and the impact on us has been immense. Unspeakably so for those who have lost their lives and their families. 

I guess I just don’t look to the president for answers like others do. Maybe that’s my disconnect here. Idk. 

1 minute ago, 20dawk4life said:

I get all that but I think the biggest difference is Americans are morons have to have their freedumb. Just talking with people in Europe vs being in the US I can see a difference in the public’s mind set regardless of poor leadership in those countries or not. 

There is a different mindset here for sure. Call it the lingering impact of frontier-ism, or the greater focus on individual liberty. But both interviews and polls show that Trump supporters would wear masks if Trump told them it was important. He just doesn't want to show any sign of weakness -- his go to move has always been ignoring reality and simply focusing on the best case scenario (e.g., ignoring all the bankers' warnings that the Taj Mahal couldn't possibly cover its debt load even if it were the most successful casino in the world). 

The bigger issue is the political cover issue. That's the job of the President at time -- to take the heat and protect members of his party. Had Trump taken this seriously, governors in red states could have stayed the course. But Trump wants no responsibility for ANYTHING, so he undercut his own administration and tweeted about liberating states. Nothing did more damage than places re-opening too soon -- it's why we failed where the rest of the developed world succeeded. 

Basically, this was a situation that called for reasoned and informed leadership willing to accept accountability and responsibility. So...yeah. Donald Trump is basically the last person you would choose for that job. It's like hiring an alcoholic to be a bar tender.