Jaycee Horn (South Carolina CB) -- DRAFTED BY CAROLINA #8

[Ray75]

1 minute ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

That's all well and good but... Howie is terrible in the draft so that's a big issue here isn't it. 

You’re so negative, man!

[UK_EaglesFan89]

1 minute ago, Ray75 said:

You’re so negative, man!

I hate this retort. It isn't being negative. It is a fact. It is the reality. What do you want me to say? Oh Howie we trust you. You've got this Howie because we believe in you. You've done a stand up job in the draft for years.

[Ray75]

14 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I hate this retort. It isn't being negative. It is a fact. It is the reality. What do you want me to say? Oh Howie we trust you. You've got this Howie because we believe in you. You've done a stand up job in the draft for years.

You are negative.  Only looking at the bad and not the opportunity...

[UK_EaglesFan89]

31 minutes ago, Ray75 said:

You are negative.  Only looking at the bad and not the opportunity...

Ok. No worries. 

[Ray75]

35 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Ok. No worries. 

Tell me.

If the Eagles select anything other than a receiver in the first, will you be disappointed?!

[time2rock]

3 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

That's all well and good but... Howie is terrible in the draft so that's a big issue here isn't it. 

I have to agree.  It is really difficult to compare Howie’s draft accomplishments compared to other teams.  Especially one like Pittsburgh that seem to draft fairly well consistently.  

3 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

[Slade]

I know other will have their own opinions but I see Horn as a potential #1CB. He's got at all the physical traits you look for in a lock down corner with the swagger the secondary has been missing for years. I would absolutely love the pick if this who it is they select.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

14 hours ago, Ray75 said:

Tell me.

If the Eagles select anything other than a receiver in the first, will you be disappointed?!

I didn't actually say that though did I. I've very much been about BPA. At #6 that likely was going to be Chase if he was still on the board. But I haven't said it is WR or nothing. But given who we could have drafted I think it's a bad move if they draft a CB.

That's my opinion and I'm entitled to that. 

You've always been an advocate of BPA. Don't force picks. Don't reach etc etc. Now you're happy if they reach to take a CB in a OK but not great class?

Look perhaps Horn and Surtain go on to be really good CBs in the NFL. Maybe they go on to be elite. I have my reservations about that and if we've missed out on an elite prospect to take one of these CBs then they best get it right. 

12 hours ago, time2rock said:

I have to agree.  It is really difficult to compare Howie’s draft accomplishments compared to other teams.  Especially one like Pittsburgh that seem to draft fairly well consistently.  

Exactly. Howie is just not good in the draft it is that simple. He's got a bad track record and so it is very hard to then believe he's going to now nail this. 

[Ray75]

28 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I didn't actually say that though did I. I've very much been about BPA. At #6 that likely was going to be Chase if he was still on the board. But I haven't said it is WR or nothing. But given who we could have drafted I think it's a bad move if they draft a CB.

That's my opinion and I'm entitled to that. 

You've always been an advocate of BPA. Don't force picks. Don't reach etc etc. Now you're happy if they reach to take a CB in a OK but not great class?

Look perhaps Horn and Surtain go on to be really good CBs in the NFL. Maybe they go on to be elite. I have my reservations about that and if we've missed out on an elite prospect to take one of these CBs then they best get it right. 

Exactly. Howie is just not good in the draft it is that simple. He's got a bad track record and so it is very hard to then believe he's going to now nail this. 

Horn is a top 15 talent so don’t talk about reach because he simply isn’t at #12.

None of Paye, Parsons, Smith, Waddle, Surtain, Horn, Slater are at this point.

So if you have a similar grade on all of them, why not use the pick on your most dire need instead of taking a receiver again?! That’s all I’m saying...

Look if Smith and/or Waddle are there and you have a way higher grade on them, be my guest...take ‘m. But if you don’t, why not just take the corner for once? You haven’t addressed it properly in the draft for two decades. What if Horn becomes the next Stephon Gilmore?! Would you still be pissed with the selection?

[UK_EaglesFan89]

2 hours ago, Ray75 said:

Horn is a top 15 talent so don’t talk about reach because he simply isn’t at #12.

None of Paye, Parsons, Smith, Waddle, Surtain, Horn, Slater are at this point.

So if you have a similar grade on all of them, why not use the pick on your most dire need instead of taking a receiver again?! That’s all I’m saying...

Look if Smith and/or Waddle are there and you have a way higher grade on them, be my guest...take ‘m. But if you don’t, why not just take the corner for once? You haven’t addressed it properly in the draft for two decades. What if Horn becomes the next Stephon Gilmore?! Would you still be pissed with the selection?

It isn't about reach in this draft though! It's about reach overall. Why force a pick if that player may not be a top talent? And this is my issue with the trade back which is ultimately where this all started. We traded back from a prime spot to #12. Did we get a decent return for it? Sure we did. 3 first round picks (as things stand) next year is nice but we could have potentially taken a top 3 non QB in this draft. And now we may end up taking a CB? A good CB from an OK class? To me this is how bad teams stay bad. They put themselves in a situation where they have to then force picks and as a result they make a mess of things.

Sure Horn might go on to become the next Gilmore. If he does then great. But you said yourself he's one of the top CB prospects from an OK class.

I believe Paye and Parsons are better overall players. I believe Smith and Waddle are better players and so if they are on the board then I take them. But my issue here is that they moved out of a prime spot.

[QBhunter58]

For all the film junkies...

https://draftwire.usatoday.com/2021/03/08/2021-nfl-draft-jaycee-horn-south-carolina-film-room-video/

I have not seen a ton of Horn of film, so I know I needed to look at the tape. Tbh, my early thoughts (first 15 minutes) are mixed.

Pros:

-Fluid athlete (speed, size, hip flip)

-good coverage instincts and ability (mirrors well)

-impressive awareness (football IQ)

-little bit of swag

-not targeted often

-great at contesting balls in the air

-nice punch and contact in press coverage

Cons:

-No killer mentality (I honestly dont see the effort to tackle, once another defender is nearby he defers)

-Not seeing elite speed (yet)

-easily taken out of running plays

-Looks like he is still refining technique (could be no issue with our new coach)

-takes chances (potentially taking himself out of the play)

 

I dont know, I wouldnt hate the pick but i feel like we have better options at 12

 

[Ray75]

18 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

It isn't about reach in this draft though! It's about reach overall. Why force a pick if that player may not be a top talent? And this is my issue with the trade back which is ultimately where this all started. We traded back from a prime spot to #12. Did we get a decent return for it? Sure we did. 3 first round picks (as things stand) next year is nice but we could have potentially taken a top 3 non QB in this draft. And now we may end up taking a CB? A good CB from an OK class? To me this is how bad teams stay bad. They put themselves in a situation where they have to then force picks and as a result they make a mess of things.

Sure Horn might go on to become the next Gilmore. If he does then great. But you said yourself he's one of the top CB prospects from an OK class.

I believe Paye and Parsons are better overall players. I believe Smith and Waddle are better players and so if they are on the board then I take them. But my issue here is that they moved out of a prime spot.

Tell you a little secret; the Eagles believe Chase won’t make it to #6.

4 QB’s and Chase go in the top 5. You can make a case for Pitts to be the pick at #6 but you better be sure a young coaching staff will be able to utilize him properly otherwise it was for nothing.

Would they pick Sewell with Mailata and Dillard still on the roster at that spot? Hard to say they’re willing to give up on them.

Still with me?! Alrighty then!

Either the Panthers or Broncos are going to take Mac Jones and the Lions will take either Smith, Waddle or Pitts. Both Sewell and Slater will likely come off the board in the top 10.

We’re talking about at least 9 players that will be locks to go in the top 10.

Still with me?! Okay!

Cowboys won’t take a receiver and will likely go OT or CB. Giants just signed Golladay and Jackson so have no need for a receiver or corner. Maybe they go edge or LB?! Who knows?!

What I’m saying is this; either Waddle, Smith, Horn, Surtain , Paye, Parsons or Pitts (probably a combination of those prospects) will be available at #12.

Any of those kids would have been an option at #6 with Chase off the board and now you can take one at #12 and in the process you turned a 5th into a 4th and on top of that you received Miami’s first next year.

Bottom line; some really good players will be available at 12. Players you’d even consider taking at #6.

Now for the corners. You could argue they’re not worthy of the #12th overall selection but they’re both top 20 talents nonetheless. It won’t be a huge reach like last year for example picking Reagor about 15-20 picks too early. No, you’d still come up with a top 15 caliber player.

Yes, I’m not a huge fan of this CB class but the idea of the Eagles finally taking a top corner just excites more than them taking a receiver. They haven’t done that in quite some time, you know! And with them not addressing the position in FA because of the lack of cap, it’s become the top priority IMO

Personally I would not take Surtain over the likes of Waddle or Smith etc but I would definitely consider taking Horn over them. Anyway...I believe you can get a quality receiver in the 2nd and beyond but the drop off at the CB position is bigger IMO.

 

[Road to Victory]

16 hours ago, time2rock said:

I have to agree.  It is really difficult to compare Howie’s draft accomplishments compared to other teams.  Especially one like Pittsburgh that seem to draft fairly well consistently.  

I hate to pile on here but the draft got a lot harder for Howie and I don’t trust his judgement. At #6, he basically had 2 clear choices with Pitts and Chase and one of them might’ve been picked before #6 making the selection very easy. At #12 there is a ton of possibilities and who expects Howie to make the right choice. He might have to chose between Smith, Waddle, Farley, Horn or Parsons. I’m sure a couple of those guys will be taken before 12 but do you trust Howie making the right decision with 3-4 guys to decide on. 

[time2rock]

9 minutes ago, Road to Victory said:

I hate to pile on here but the draft got a lot harder for Howie and I don’t trust his judgement. At #6, he basically had 2 clear choices with Pitts and Chase and one of them might’ve been picked before #6 making the selection very easy. At #12 there is a ton of possibilities and who expects Howie to make the right choice. He might have to chose between Smith, Waddle, Farley, Horn or Parsons. I’m sure a couple of those guys will be taken before 12 but do you trust Howie making the right decision with 3-4 guys to decide on. 

I've gotten to the point where I never expect Howie to make the right choice anymore.  While he has had his moments, he also has made SO MANY mistakes during his tenure as GM.  And if the recent reports are true in that the scouts were telling him to draft Jefferson and Chinn and he completely ignored all the work they put in and went with Reagor and Hurts on his own (just another shining example of thinking he is the smartest guy in the room), then it is hard to feel even a little optimistic.

My only hope is that one of either Chase or Pitts happens to fall to us at 12 following a recent trend (last 3 years) where the top receiver was taken 12 or later.  If that happened then it will be a huge success (assuming he is selected) since we'd have that extra 1st next year.  Knowing Howie one would fall to 12 and Howie would take Ojulari and then I'd be shopping for a new TV the next day.  

[Outlaw]

On 3/27/2021 at 6:03 AM, Infam said:

Yeah this offense needs another WR. I don't care how many picks we made on that position. We still need another WR.

And no, I don't think the second is good enough for it. The difference between a first and second round WR this year is bigger than the difference at any other position.

And then there is value. A top WR costs big time money. Yes CB ain't that far off, and I will be fine with Surtain or Horn too.

But wake up yourself: IF you can pick Smith or Waddle at 12 the value is much better on them than it is for any secondary guy out there. 

There are quite a few good prospects in R2-5 for WR: Terrace Marshall, Nico Collins, Tylan Wallace, Seth Williams, Tamorrion Terry to name just a few guys who add size and can play X.  A LOT of the most successful WRs in the league today were 2nd round or later: Davante Adams, Stefon Diggs, Tyreek Hill, DK Metcalf (still stings), Terry McLaurin, etc.  Not to say that there isn't 1st round talent being successful as well, as there obviously is, but WR is one position where starting talent can be found on days 2 or 3 the easiest.  At 12, if the available guys were as follows:

Waddle

Parsons

Slater

Surtain

Horn

Farley

I think for me it comes down to Surtain or Horn.  Surtain is the steady guy who has a high floor and low ceiling, and Horn has more potential to grow his skills.  Slater could easily be the pick there with his versatility, Parsons...I just don't see them breaking tradition to go LB in R1, Farley's injury history and being a one year wonder worries me, and Waddle while very good also has an injury history and doesn't give me the size I'm looking to add to the field opposite Reagor.

On 3/27/2021 at 9:02 AM, time2rock said:

I still think there is more than a slight chance one of either Pitts or Chase is there at 12.  If both are gone, then that is my hope as well, to grab either Horn or Surtain with pick 12.  I'd then have my fingers crossed either Bateman or Moehrig fall to 37 (I know, highly unlikely ... but ya never know!).   

If either Pitts or Chase are there at 12 (Pitts is the more likely), I will be running to the podium myself with his name on a card.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Outlaw said:

There are quite a few good prospects in R2-5 for WR: Terrace Marshall, Nico Collins, Tylan Wallace, Seth Williams, Tamorrion Terry

Compiling an early list of guys who will be better than the guy we pick in round 2 ??

[Outlaw]

2 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Compiling an early list of guys who will be better than the guy we pick in round 2 ??

Out of that group, Marshall is the only guy I have a R2 grade on.  I think Horn===>Marshall===>Melifonwu/Campbell/Stokes===>Javonte Williams is a realistic awesome looking day 1 and 2.  Gives us a new Lito/Sheldon combo, a nice looking X WR, and a true #2 RB who breaks tackles like Jennifer Lopez breaks hearts, painfully and often.

 

[eaglesfan0075]

14 hours ago, Ray75 said:

Yes, I’m not a huge fan of this CB class but the idea of the Eagles finally taking a top corner just excites more than them taking a receiver. They haven’t done that in quite some time, you know! And with them not addressing the position in FA because of the lack of cap, it’s become the top priority IMO

Personally I would not take Surtain over the like of Waddle, Smith etc but I would definitely consider taking Horn over them. Anyway...I believe you can get a quality receiver in the 2nd and beyond but the drop off at the CB position is bigger IMO.

Howie has been known to play the positional depth game in the past, which may or may not come back to haunt us.

Trading up from 26 to 13 in 2010 to not select Earl Thomas, but rather Brandon Graham, is an example of this. Obviously it eventually worked out for us in Super Bowl 52, but Thomas is a future HoF safety and Graham is in the tier of very good but not great players, just making his first Pro Bowl after starting off as a late bloomer.

Howie basically insinuated in a post-draft press conference that he liked the potential pairing of Graham and Nate Allen in Round 2 over taking Earl Thomas in Round 1 along with a DE in Round 2.

Personally, while I like Horn and Surtain as prospects, the combo of Smith or Waddle with one of the 2nd round guys such as Stokes, Newsome, Samuel, etc... is a more appealing combo to me than Horn or Surtain with  Rashod Bateman (wishful thinking?), Terrace Marshall, etc...

Obviously, if both Alabama WRs are gone by 12, we'd have to strongly consider taking a CB if not Slater if he's still on the board. DE Kwity Paye does scream Howie pick to me though and he would be my least preferred option from that tier of players.

[Ray75]

19 minutes ago, eaglesfan0075 said:

Howie has been known to play the positional depth game in the past, which may or may not come back to haunt us.

Trading up from 26 to 13 in 2010 to not select Earl Thomas, but rather Brandon Graham, is an example of this. Obviously it eventually worked out for us in Super Bowl 52, but Thomas is a future HoF safety and Graham is in the tier of very good but not great players, just making his first Pro Bowl after starting off as a late bloomer.

Howie basically insinuated in a post-draft press conference that he liked the potential pairing of Graham and Nate Allen in Round 2 over taking Earl Thomas in Round 1 along with a DE in Round 2.

Personally, while I like Horn and Surtain as prospects, the combo of Smith or Waddle with one of the 2nd round guys such as Stokes, Newsome, Samuel, etc... is a more appealing combo to me than Horn or Surtain with  Rashod Bateman (wishful thinking?), Terrace Marshall, etc...

Obviously, if both Alabama WRs are gone by 12, we'd have to strongly consider taking a CB if not Slater if he's still on the board. DE Kwity Paye does scream Howie pick to me though and he would be my least preferred option from that tier of players.

And right there we completely disagree! 

Give me the combo Horn and Marshall all day!

If this organisation is looking for a big X receiver in the vein of Pittman, Claypool or Jeffrey, Marshall is perfect.

I like Waddle but he’s the prototypical receiver we were looking for last year when we took Reagor. Smith’s frame still scares me and I don’t know if his playing style will translate all that well in the NFL at 170 lbs.

Marshall is 6’4”, 200 lbs and will likely run  sub 4.5. Like all LSU receivers, they lined him up everywhere.

So yes, the combination of Horn in the first and Marshall in the second sounds more appealing to me. Sorry!

[Outlaw]

37 minutes ago, eaglesfan0075 said:

Howie has been known to play the positional depth game in the past, which may or may not come back to haunt us.

Trading up from 26 to 13 in 2010 to not select Earl Thomas, but rather Brandon Graham, is an example of this. Obviously it eventually worked out for us in Super Bowl 52, but Thomas is a future HoF safety and Graham is in the tier of very good but not great players, just making his first Pro Bowl after starting off as a late bloomer.

Howie basically insinuated in a post-draft press conference that he liked the potential pairing of Graham and Nate Allen in Round 2 over taking Earl Thomas in Round 1 along with a DE in Round 2.

Personally, while I like Horn and Surtain as prospects, the combo of Smith or Waddle with one of the 2nd round guys such as Stokes, Newsome, Samuel, etc... is a more appealing combo to me than Horn or Surtain with  Rashod Bateman (wishful thinking?), Terrace Marshall, etc...

Obviously, if both Alabama WRs are gone by 12, we'd have to strongly consider taking a CB if not Slater if he's still on the board. DE Kwity Paye does scream Howie pick to me though and he would be my least preferred option from that tier of players.

See I’m the opposite. At 12 with the expected happening 1-11, I think BPA will come down to Smith, Horn, Slater, Surtain or Paye. I’d go Horn or trade down to someone who wants either One of them. A team like AZ at 16 might be dying to guarantee their Peterson replacement in Surtain for example.  Or maybe Miami wants to take Chase and Slater in R1. But if I’m staying at 12 and Horn/Surtain/Slater are all on the board it would be tough to pass Horn up  

I think first 11 are Lawrence, Wilson, Jones Pitts, Sewell, Chase, Waddle, Lance, Fields, Horn/Surtain, Parsons in that order. 

[Ray75]

16 minutes ago, Outlaw said:

See I’m the opposite. At 12 with the expected happening 1-11, I think BPA will come down to Smith, Horn, Slater, Surtain or Paye. I’d go Horn or trade down to someone who wants either One of them. A team like AZ at 16 might be dying to guarantee their Peterson replacement in Surtain for example.  Or maybe Miami wants to take Chase and Slater in R1. But if I’m staying at 12 and Horn/Surtain/Slater are all on the board it would be tough to pass Horn up  

I think first 11 are Lawrence, Wilson, Jones Pitts, Sewell, Chase, Waddle, Lance, Fields, Horn/Surtain, Parsons in that order. 

Agreed but for the Cowboys it might be hard to pass on Slater if he’s there. They value OL like we do...

[PoconoDon]

Jaycee Horn. I like him at #12.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

On 3/30/2021 at 4:47 PM, PoconoDon said:

Jaycee Horn. I like him at #12.

I'm coming round to the idea. I'm still not a fan of the trade back but hey that's happened now.

[PoconoDon]

3 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I'm coming round to the idea. I'm still not a fan of the trade back but hey that's happened now.

The elite prospects should be gone but there are several good prospects who should be there around #12 and Horn is one of them. 

He tested well at his pro day. TBF, most guys do, but even if the #'s are a little off, the results are still very good.

 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

9 hours ago, PoconoDon said:

The elite prospects should be gone but there are several good prospects who should be there around #12 and Horn is one of them. 

He tested well at his pro day. TBF, most guys do, but even if the #'s are a little off, the results are still very good.

 

And the fact that the elite prospects will be gone is why I don't like the trade back. Howie is just plain bad in the draft but the chances were greater of him getting it right at #6 than at #12.

But hey it means Lurie can use his new defense of Howie after this draft too.