33 minutes ago, Wentz_Era said:

So your opinions are facts, which automatically makes someone else's wrong? I stated what I've seen and I know what I'm watching as well as far as technique. 

Also, sorry I missed putting the word press in there as well.  My point was they've played their CB's the same no matter the player over the years.  

I asked for tape on him that shows what you said technique wise, not him getting eaten alive in coverage (as the RCB).  I'm genuinely curious what people are watching that makes them love him.  I have not seen it.

So you should probably not try to come at people sideways trying to have a discussion on a discussion board.

 

No, my opinions aren't facts. If you don't know what you just wrote wrong, then you shouldn't be talking about football period. Now I'm going from not understanding you to telling you that you just don't know the sport. You made a mistake? No you didn't. You just got called out, probably had ZERO CLUE what press bail meant and now look dumb because you said, "Alabama has run press bail almost exclusively for 10 years" when THEY HAVEN'T DONE THAT. 🤣🤣

My facts are facts. You said water isn't wet 90% of the time. I said water is wet. Because it's water. 

And your response of course was ... nothing but this. There was 5 minutes of a man who clearly has played and coached defensive backs showing Patrick Surtain in press and you came away with nothing. Why? Because you're a TATEr man. 

As @Ray75 says, go watch Disney+ 

20 minutes ago, stinkfist said:

No, my My facts are facts. You said water isn't wet 90% of the time. I said water is wet. Because it's water. 

And your response of course was ... nothing but this. There was 5 minutes of a man who clearly has played and coached defensive backs showing Patrick Surtain in press and you came away with nothing. Why? Because you're a TATEr man. 

As @Ray75 says, go watch Disney+ 

I asked a simple thing, show me what you're watching that apparently I'm not seeing with him.  You went off the rails for some unknown reason.  Posted a video of him being eaten alive and another one of someone saying oh this one play is great, nvm wait he doesn't angle here well and has to recover...let's watch again, nvm he has terrible footwork.

Reading, writing and comprehension aren't strong for you I see.  From what I can pull out of this incoherent babble is you misquoting me...

Quote

Bama plays the LCB (most times RCB too) almost exclusively in bail, they've done it for 10+ years now.

I just worked all night, so ya...I made a typo.  Sorry and thanks for trying to call me out when you can't even speak in English.

Also, there's a lot of scientific merit to saying water isn't wet.  But keep using cliche analogies and arguing for some unknown reason.

5 hours ago, stinkfist said:

No, my opinions aren't facts. If you don't know what you just wrote wrong, then you shouldn't be talking about football period. Now I'm going from not understanding you to telling you that you just don't know the sport. You made a mistake? No you didn't. You just got called out, probably had ZERO CLUE what press bail meant and now look dumb because you said, "Alabama has run press bail almost exclusively for 10 years" when THEY HAVEN'T DONE THAT. 🤣🤣

My facts are facts. You said water isn't wet 90% of the time. I said water is wet. Because it's water. 

And your response of course was ... nothing but this. There was 5 minutes of a man who clearly has played and coached defensive backs showing Patrick Surtain in press and you came away with nothing. Why? Because you're a TATEr man. 

As @Ray75 says, go watch Disney+ 

great content

 

@Wentz_Era - I'm just going to respond and be done because apparently, I don't understand what you want here. And that's OK. Perhaps I am doing a poor job as well. I'm going to skip over your comments on press bail, man because they're irrelevant to what I'm going to say. 🤣

In press man, Surtain does a great job. If you don't see that, we have a vastly different opinion. That's fine. I have mentioned all year now how much I love that he throws a "false hand" to force the receiver to release and then replaces it with the real jam. Interestingly enough, that video has this coach talking about a "fake jam" which is what I am talking about. That's something you just don't see much. No false steps. They just don't happen. I love Jaycee Horn and probably like him as a pro prospect more than Surtain, but false steps kill him. Surtain is flawless there. He bodies up and uses those hands to win early and often. His backpedal is lowish and fluid. He keeps that gate closed and forces receivers outside. 

Plays zone well too. You seem interested in man, but I'll talk about it. When I think of him getting tipped balls or PBUs, a lot has been in zone driving on the ball. Breaking up crossing routes. His tackling has continued to get better. 

What does he lack, and I've talked about this forever ... he's not an elite athlete. I don't see great long speed to turn and burn and I also don't see that short area quickness he'll need to deal with quicker receivers that get past his jam. I'm not talking about Tyreek Hill either. I'm talking about quite a bit of the NFL. He's going to need to stop relying on gripping and leaning which is the technique he is outstanding at. I don't THINK it will translate as well to the NFL as others. 

I don't see Surtain as a Top 10 player. 

Now, my opinion doesn't mean more than yours. When you ask me to show you though, I don't edit film. I've coached the position. I've worked with kids at camps and 7on7s. I've graded them on this. I do this for fun. It is not my job. It may be yours. I'm just a guy writing this from my office at 4am sipping my coffee. Best I can do is literally Google "coach talk Patrick Surtain" and find someone who sounds impartial. Then, I figured I'd show you him playing press bail and man. 

All I have on it. Have a good one. 

On 1/30/2021 at 4:03 AM, stinkfist said:

@Wentz_Era - I'm just going to respond and be done because apparently, I don't understand what you want here. And that's OK. Perhaps I am doing a poor job as well. I'm going to skip over your comments on press bail, man because they're irrelevant to what I'm going to say. 🤣

In press man, Surtain does a great job. If you don't see that, we have a vastly different opinion. That's fine. I have mentioned all year now how much I love that he throws a "false hand" to force the receiver to release and then replaces it with the real jam. Interestingly enough, that video has this coach talking about a "fake jam" which is what I am talking about. That's something you just don't see much. No false steps. They just don't happen. I love Jaycee Horn and probably like him as a pro prospect more than Surtain, but false steps kill him. Surtain is flawless there. He bodies up and uses those hands to win early and often. His backpedal is lowish and fluid. He keeps that gate closed and forces receivers outside. 

Plays zone well too. You seem interested in man, but I'll talk about it. When I think of him getting tipped balls or PBUs, a lot has been in zone driving on the ball. Breaking up crossing routes. His tackling has continued to get better. 

What does he lack, and I've talked about this forever ... he's not an elite athlete. I don't see great long speed to turn and burn and I also don't see that short area quickness he'll need to deal with quicker receivers that get past his jam. I'm not talking about Tyreek Hill either. I'm talking about quite a bit of the NFL. He's going to need to stop relying on gripping and leaning which is the technique he is outstanding at. I don't THINK it will translate as well to the NFL as others. 

I don't see Surtain as a Top 10 player. 

Now, my opinion doesn't mean more than yours. When you ask me to show you though, I don't edit film. I've coached the position. I've worked with kids at camps and 7on7s. I've graded them on this. I do this for fun. It is not my job. It may be yours. I'm just a guy writing this from my office at 4am sipping my coffee. Best I can do is literally Google "coach talk Patrick Surtain" and find someone who sounds impartial. Then, I figured I'd show you him playing press bail and man. 

All I have on it. Have a good one. 

that was much better. 

@Wentz_Era played in the NFL(regional combine)

He knows his stuff too. 

Bump up! In the mix at 12...

While everyone is on the Horn gravy train, rightfully so, Surtain is being overlooked by fans. I would bet (hypothetically speaking) that the Eagles love Surtain more than Horn.

I have been very critical on Surtain with is ball skills because for a highly rated corner his ball skills should be top level. But he is the more well rounded corner of the two. I will admit, Horn has the higher potential but Surtain is the more sure thing in this case. I understand the great players around Surtain but his technique is sound and I love that in CBs. At 12 it’s clear that eagles go defense until a stud player falls.

6 hours ago, philafan4o8 said:

While everyone is on the Horn gravy train, rightfully so, Surtain is being overlooked by fans. I would bet (hypothetically speaking) that the Eagles love Surtain more than Horn.

I have been very critical on Surtain with is ball skills because for a highly rated corner his ball skills should be top level. But he is the more well rounded corner of the two. I will admit, Horn has the higher potential but Surtain is the more sure thing in this case. I understand the great players around Surtain but his technique is sound and I love that in CBs. At 12 it’s clear that eagles go defense until a stud player falls.

Surtain is an old school Sheldon Brown #2 type corner IMO.  He's a bit stiff and often flat footed contesting.  The S room is a bit full right now and that's where I see him as the best fit.

2 hours ago, Wentz_Era said:

Surtain is an old school Sheldon Brown #2 type corner IMO.  He's a bit stiff and often flat footed contesting.  The S room is a bit full right now and that's where I see him as the best fit.

I won’t disagree with #2 corner but that is what he will be if drafted because of Slay. Personally don’t think he is stiff but he does get flat footed sometimes as does every corner. Hmmm ya his best fit is corner not sure why you would say safety.

Basically my point is that I don’t think there is that much of a talent different from the top 3 corners and "tier 2” group. This is why I am a little upset if they do decide to go corner at #12. Knowing the Eagles they will likely grab a DL or CB. 

if Hurts turns out to be good, they have enough ammo to trade up for Derek Stingley next year. Potential of a true #1 CB

12 hours ago, philafan4o8 said:

I won’t disagree with #2 corner but that is what he will be if drafted because of Slay. Personally don’t think he is stiff but he does get flat footed sometimes as does every corner. Hmmm ya his best fit is corner not sure why you would say safety.

Basically my point is that I don’t think there is that much of a talent different from the top 3 corners and "tier 2” group. This is why I am a little upset if they do decide to go corner at #12. Knowing the Eagles they will likely grab a DL or CB. 

if Hurts turns out to be good, they have enough ammo to trade up for Derek Stingley next year. Potential of a true #1 CB

He reminds me a lot of Minkah or a Jenkins type player.  He's got great technique for sure, but when he does get targeted his slow opening up and isn't able to use his athleticism contesting the ball.  Fortunately at the college level his length lets him snake an arm in there and force some drops.  Against NFL level ball placement and WR's he's gonna struggle a bit I think.  He's at his best when he's reading, reacting and attacking.  Hence why I like him as a S in the hybrid role.  He's big enough to not get bullied by TE's, the athleticism to provide over the top coverage and he seems football smart as well, you can tell the kid watches film and reads what he's seeing very well.

4 hours ago, Wentz_Era said:

He reminds me a lot of Minkah or a Jenkins type player.  He's got great technique for sure, but when he does get targeted his slow opening up and isn't able to use his athleticism contesting the ball.  Fortunately at the college level his length lets him snake an arm in there and force some drops.  Against NFL level ball placement and WR's he's gonna struggle a bit I think.  He's at his best when he's reading, reacting and attacking.  Hence why I like him as a S in the hybrid role.  He's big enough to not get bullied by TE's, the athleticism to provide over the top coverage and he seems football smart as well, you can tell the kid watches film and reads what he's seeing very well.

I see what you mean. Fundamentally sound but when you watch the tape indeed a bit stiff and flat footed.

In that departement both Horn and Farley look like natural corners more than Surtain does.

Although I do think he’ll start his career at CB, I do agree with you he could see a similar career as Jenkins. Starting at corner but eventually moving to safety down the line.

CB is one of the positions that's always overdrafted (too many and too soon). With Farley having back surgery (draft stock dropping), Horn and Surtain are the top 2 and both could be gone by 12. I expect Dallas to take a CB at 10.

JAX: Lawrence

NYJ: Wilson

SF: Lance

ATL: Chase

CIN: Sewell

MIA: Pitts

DET: Waddle

CAR: Horn (edit for Darnold trade)

DEN: Fields

DAL: Slater

NYG: Tucker

PHI: WAS offers a trade (19 and 51 for 12 and 123) which is better than CHI’s 20, 83 and a future 3rd. The expectation is that both teams want Mac Jones. You make the call? Surtain, Smith, LB, DE or tradeback (and who would reasonably be there to target?)?

 

 

 

 

11 hours ago, Waiting4Someday said:

JAX: Lawrence

NYJ: Wilson

SF: Lance

ATL: Chase

CIN: Sewell

MIA: Pitts

DET: Waddle

CAR: Fields

DEN: Slater

DAL: Horn

NYG: Tucker

PHI: WAS offers a trade (19 and 51 for 12 and 123) which is better than CHI’s 20, 83 and a future 3rd. The expectation is that both teams want Mac Jones. You make the call? Surtain, Smith, LB, DE or tradeback (and who would reasonably be there to target?)?

That's a tough one.  Chi would have to throw in a future 2nd (not 3rd) to make it worthwhile.  If they did I likely would be on board with that scenario - still leaves us with 11 picks this year and adds an extra day 2 pick next year.  

13 hours ago, Waiting4Someday said:

WAS offers a trade (19 and 51 for 12 and 123) which is better than CHI’s 20, 83 and a future 3rd. The expectation is that both teams want Mac Jones. You make the call? Surtain, Smith, LB, DE or tradeback (and who would reasonably be there to target?)?

I'd be open to trading back again, but WAS would have to sweeten that deal to make it worth my while.   If they'd do 19 + 74 for 12, it's a done deal.  

I like Surtain, I think he'd be an instant starter on our defense, and given the offensive firepower that other teams have in the division it's clear we need a lot of good corners.  However, we have a lot of holes and no one player is going to fix this team. 

I could see Washington, bears, and pats all looking to trade up for jones, so I would say we are in a good spot because those teams wouldn’t have to sell the farm to do so. 
 

if we trade back to 19-20 I would think that puts Bateman right at the top of the list with de/lb/oline

I think Surtain is the best corner this draft, and there is a good chance he will be our pick at 12.

I don't think we will pick that high again next year (unless Wentz craps the bed again), so I'm a bit sad because I want an elite receiver.

But I won't argue that CB right now is our biggest need, and Surtain is an elite player, so we can be happy if he is the pick.

2 hours ago, Infam said:

I think Surtain is the best corner this draft, and there is a good chance he will be our pick at 12.

I don't think we will pick that high again next year (unless Wentz craps the bed again), so I'm a bit sad because I want an elite receiver.

But I won't argue that CB right now is our biggest need, and Surtain is an elite player, so we can be happy if he is the pick.

I personally think that Surtain is the consensus #1 corner among NFL teams. That being said, I don’t think Surtain makes it to #12. Eagles need to trade back into the top 10 (between 7-9) to draft him IMO. I don’t see him getting pass Dallas. Jerry Jones runs the card in himself if Surtain is still on the board. We all hate the cowboys but they draft well and I am not buying Horn to the cowboys. 
 

If Surtain is there at 12, you only take him if the top 3 WRs and Slater are gone. Gut is that eagles draft best dline prospect on their board at 12. 

On 4/12/2021 at 9:53 AM, philafan4o8 said:

I personally think that Surtain is the consensus #1 corner among NFL teams. That being said, I don’t think Surtain makes it to #12. Eagles need to trade back into the top 10 (between 7-9) to draft him IMO. I don’t see him getting pass Dallas. Jerry Jones runs the card in himself if Surtain is still on the board. We all hate the cowboys but they draft well and I am not buying Horn to the cowboys. 
 

If Surtain is there at 12, you only take him if the top 3 WRs and Slater are gone. Gut is that eagles draft best dline prospect on their board at 12. 

I believe 5 QBs will go before us, so the numbers are in our favor. Only 6 other players need to be taken for us to get Surtain. I believe the OT Sewell will be one of them, at least 2 WRs will be taken before us, Pitts will be... that's already 4. It wouldn't be a huge shock if Parsons or the third WR go before him. Sporting News has CB Caleb Farley going before him. I'm not saying its even probable he falls to us, but definitely possible. Too many bad teams draft for need, those WR's may go off the board quick once the first one goes.

7 hours ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

I believe 5 QBs will go before us, so the numbers are in our favor. Only 6 other players need to be taken for us to get Surtain. I believe the OT Sewell will be one of them, at least 2 WRs will be taken before us, Pitts will be... that's already 4. It wouldn't be a huge shock if Parsons or the third WR go before him. Sporting News has CB Caleb Farley going before him. I'm not saying its even probable he falls to us, but definitely possible. Too many bad teams draft for need, those WR's may go off the board quick once the first one goes.

Parsons would be a huge shock in my book. Year off and "rumored” off the field concerns. 

55 minutes ago, philafan4o8 said:

Parsons would be a huge shock in my book. Year off and "rumored” off the field concerns. 

I think Slater goes in the top-11 (but I also think Horn goes ahead of Surtain, as he has IMO a better profile in man coverage).

For no other reason than to have another db whose name the EMB can randomly add an "s" to. Joining the ranks of Asante Samuels and Brandon Boykins (I'm sure I'm missing others). 

On 4/14/2021 at 12:45 PM, Aerolithe_Lion said:

I believe 5 QBs will go before us, so the numbers are in our favor. Only 6 other players need to be taken for us to get Surtain. I believe the OT Sewell will be one of them, at least 2 WRs will be taken before us, Pitts will be... that's already 4. It wouldn't be a huge shock if Parsons or the third WR go before him. Sporting News has CB Caleb Farley going before him. I'm not saying its even probable he falls to us, but definitely possible. Too many bad teams draft for need, those WR's may go off the board quick once the first one goes.

If he makes it to Dallas pick, he’s gone. 

2 hours ago, nipples said:

If he makes it to Dallas pick, he’s gone. 

Agreed! Although the Broncos are hedging their bet at QB. I would not be surprised if they go CB as a surprise pick

7 hours ago, philafan4o8 said:

Agreed! Although the Broncos are hedging their bet at QB. I would not be surprised if they go CB as a surprise pick

I think they do go CB. And if they don't go CB then Carolina might well go CB. And then Dallas probably go CB.