June 9, 20223 yr 4 minutes ago, VanHammersly said: Ya'll are kind of off-track here. Reagan was debatably on his way to dementia during his second term. He was certainly more on his way than Biden, who has a camera in his face about 1000x more often than Reagan ever did. https://www.history.com/news/reagan-health-25th-amendment The funny thing is, that description sounds like Trump, except Trump would binge on cable news because he was demented AND mentally ill. Remember the fuss over Nancy Reagan’s astrologist actually running the country?
June 9, 20223 yr 41 minutes ago, vikas83 said: At least I'm being called a conservative again. I got that going for me. Pro tip -- if you're gonna call someone a dolt, maybe spell individual correctly. It helps. But if you actually want to debate this -- I'm game. Of course it was the culmination of policies since 1945, and each President tried their own approach. The point is Reagan's approach actually worked in the situation he inherited, and it was undeniably a massive change in direction from what came before because it focused on actually defeating the Soviets as opposed to limiting their expansion. How? Let's review: Truman -- Containment. Truman pioneered dealing with the USSR, and he and Acheson focused on their containment strategy to keep Communism where it was. I would argue this was somewhat of a wasted opportunity, as we could have exploited US nuclear hegemony prior to 1949. Instead, China formally fell to Communists (really, this was happening no matter what), and the policy in Korea was muddled at best. But all in all, if you accept China was already gone, Truman mainly succeeding in containing Communism but never focused on trying to defeat it. Eisenhower -- Brinksmanship. This was really more Dulles, and I never thought he got the credit he deserved for finding a way to counter Soviet expansionism while reducing our use of conventional forces. But...when push came to shove in Hungary, Cuba, etc. we didn't follow through since it was a bluff. So the Eisenhower era did lead to relative peace with a lack of actual ground conflict, but there were really territorial losses. Kennedy/Johnson -- Flexible Response. Now this was a catastrophe. JFK decides brinksmanship and the reliance on MAD is immoral/impractical, and he decides that instead the US should focus on proportional responses to communist aggression. While he passes his first test with the CMC (thanks mainly to his advisors like McNamara), he begins deploying conventional ground forces as advisors to South Vietnam. Johnson inherits this plan and, well, we know what transpired. Nixon/Ford -- Detente and Realpolitik -- Nixon and Kissinger looked to reduce arms spending and tensions with the Soviets through arms reduction treaties and other deals, while trying to apply pressure by opening up China. The China strategy by Kissinger was brilliant, and it might have worked over the long-term, but they purposely reduced pressure on the Soviet economy by negotiating arms reduction. Carter -- who the hell knows -- I mean, I guess he kinda continued detente? Reagan was unique in that he was the 1st President to effectively have the elimination of the Soviet Union as part of his stated policy. No President from Truman to Carter aspired to anything greater than containing the Soviets and effectively learning to live with them. It's why Reagan's Evil Empire speech was so shocking and such a massive shift in direction (and criticized so heavily on the left). Now, the Soviets put themselves in the position to be broken thanks to their idiocy in Afghanistan (and the fundamental weakness of their economy versus ours), but Reagan poured gas on the fire. Reagan also had the MX missile program (some credit to Carter here as he tried but was thwarted by Congress), "star wars"/ICBM interdiction program, and several others that pressured the Soviets to spend/keep up. Also, the Ohio class ballistic missile submarine commissioned in 81 (again Carter/Ford deserve some credit here). The Ohio class triggered development and production of the akula class submarines which cost the Soviets a fortune due to their choice of hull materials.
June 9, 20223 yr 5 minutes ago, BBE said: Reagan also had the MX missile program (some credit to Carter here as he tried but was thwarted by Congress), "star wars"/ICBM interdiction program, and several others that pressured the Soviets to spend/keep up. Also, the Ohio class ballistic missile submarine commissioned in 81 (again Carter/Ford deserve some credit here). The Ohio class triggered development and production of the akula class submarines which cost the Soviets a fortune due to their choice of hull materials. One of the things Reagan gets mocked for here is SDI (Star Wars), but it scared the living hell out of the Soviets.
June 9, 20223 yr 33 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: The point is well-taken, but in my defense, today was the last day of school, and I started drinking early Ye ole "I’ve been drinking” explanation, nice!
June 9, 20223 yr 22 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: There's a lot here that I just don't have the time to get into, but it's certainly a mixed bag with JFK at best, and yes, a lot of it does get glossed over, I think largely due to the martyrdom aspect which is somewhat predictable. A lot of people bore responsibility for Bay of Pigs, JFK being chief among them, but I'd really like to go back and review my notes for this, because I did look into a lot the FRUS materials when prepping for my thesis. JFK does often come off as a guy who doesn't know what's going on, which I guess is somewhat understandable given that he had just taken office, but the trend continues throughout his presidency. One thing I remember, though, is there being a terrible lack of coordination between the JCS and Dept. of State on now the operation was going to be carried out. The two teams were essentially isolated from one another and the failures in communication continued through the operation itself. It was an all-around failure. I think you have to give him some credit for wanting to do something about civil rights, but the truth is that he didn't have the balls to do it, just like pulling out of South Vietnam. Ultimately, I think top-10 is too high but bottom-10 is too low. It's hard to rank him since he was only in office for less than three years.he had a lot of unfinished business. He's sort of unranked in my mind, but he did change the tenor or politics in the country that I think was mostly positive. And while I do think he bears grave responsibility for basically leaving the plan on LBJs desk that led to the ultimate quagmire in Vietnam, I don't think he would've gotten so entrenched to the point of having 500,000 ground troops over there. Bottom 10 is probably harsh, as we can say these guys are all unquestionably worse: Trump, Carter, LBJ, Hoover, WH Harrison, Tyler, Pierce, Fillmore, Buchanan. So that's 9, and I've left out guys like GWB, Hayes, Garfield, Arthur, B Harrison, Quincy Adams and Cleveland. Let's just say the bottom 50%.
June 9, 20223 yr Author 5 minutes ago, DrPhilly said: Ye ole "I’ve been drinking” explanation, nice! Drinking and typing on a damn phone. Don't do it, kids!
June 9, 20223 yr 2 minutes ago, vikas83 said: Bottom 10 is probably harsh, as we can say these guys are all unquestionably worse: Trump, Carter, LBJ, Hoover, Harrison, Tyler, Pierce, Fillmore, Buchanan. So that's 9, and I've left out guys like GWB, Hayes, Garfield, Arthur, Harrison, Quincy Adams and Cleveland. Let's just say the bottom 50%. I'm not exactly surprised that you would have LBJ in that bottom 10 list, but let's just say a lot of people that can now vote or now don't go bankrupt paying medical bills later in life would disagree.
June 9, 20223 yr 2 minutes ago, vikas83 said: Bottom 10 is probably harsh, as we can say these guys are all unquestionably worse: Trump, Carter, LBJ, Hoover, WH Harrison, Tyler, Pierce, Fillmore, Buchanan. So that's 9, and I've left out guys like GWB, Hayes, Garfield, Arthur, B Harrison, Quincy Adams and Cleveland. Let's just say the bottom 50%. WH Harrison got sick at his inauguration and died a month later. Why is he in your bottom 10?
June 9, 20223 yr Just now, VanHammersly said: I'm not exactly surprised that you would have LBJ in that bottom 10 list, but let's just say a lot of people that can now vote or now don't go bankrupt paying medical bills later in life would disagree. He's there for Great Society and Vietnam. Welfare, Medicaid and Medicare are three of the worst things that have ever happened to this nation. If you like, you can replace him with Nixon. Point still stands.
June 9, 20223 yr Just now, Dave Moss said: WH Harrison got sick at his inauguration and died a month later. Why is he in your bottom 10? I think you just answered your own question.
June 9, 20223 yr Just now, Dave Moss said: WH Harrison got sick at his inauguration and died a month later. Why is he in your bottom 10? MFer had one job. Wear a coat to your inaugural parade. ONE JOB
June 9, 20223 yr Author 5 minutes ago, vikas83 said: MFer had one job. Wear a coat to your inaugural parade. ONE JOB Yeah, but cold weather doesn't directly cause illness. Believe me, if it did, we'd have a lot less stupid kids, because half of them do not wear coats in January. Some even wear shorts.
June 9, 20223 yr JFK for all his warts, was at least willing to actually listen to his advisors. Also, weren't the jupiters in turkey old as F by then? So we didn't really concede much by dismantling them.
June 9, 20223 yr 24 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said: JFK for all his warts, was at least willing to actually listen to his advisors. Also, weren't the jupiters in turkey old as F by then? So we didn't really concede much by dismantling them. They were do to be replaced and upgraded, but instead we just withdrew them. It was pretty much what Khrushchev was after, but the secret nature of the deal meant Kennedy looked like the winner. JFK did assemble a strong cabinet for the most part.
June 9, 20223 yr I feel like I'm in a history class. Kept me awake at least. I had to look up Pierce. Yea, he's one of the worst.
June 9, 20223 yr 55 minutes ago, vikas83 said: Bottom 10 is probably harsh, as we can say these guys are all unquestionably worse: Trump, Carter, LBJ, Hoover, WH Harrison, Tyler, Pierce, Fillmore, Buchanan. So that's 9, and I've left out guys like GWB, Hayes, Garfield, Arthur, B Harrison, Quincy Adams and Cleveland. Let's just say the bottom 50%. The god-awful worst president ever. I always saw Trump as a modern day Buchanan, but far less effective at his job.
June 9, 20223 yr 5 minutes ago, DiPros said: I feel like I'm in a history class. Kept me awake at least. I had to look up Pierce. Yea, he's one of the worst. That whole run of pre-Civil War Presidents from WH Harrison to Buchanan are all pretty terrible, with the possible exception of Polk. I left him off the bottom 10 list to not look like I was picking on the whole lot of them. Taylor too since he was a war hero I guess. Buchanan and Trump are the clear winners for worst of all time. I still give the crown to Buchanan, but Trump made it damn close. 3 minutes ago, pallidrone said: The god-awful worst president ever. I always saw Trump as a modern day Buchanan, but far less effective at his job. Ha -- guess you posted that as I was typing to compare the two.
June 9, 20223 yr I mean, this is your epic run post Andrew Jackson: Van Buren, WH Harrison, Tyler, Polk, Taylor, Fillmore, Pierce, Buchanan. That's just unreal ineptitude.
June 9, 20223 yr 6 minutes ago, DiPros said: I feel like I'm in a history class. Kept me awake at least. I had to look up Pierce. Yea, he's one of the worst. History can be interesting though. Two things about Pierce. 1) He was basically elected because his friend Nathaniel Hawthorne wrote a biography for him. 2) George W Bush is related to him through his mother.
June 9, 20223 yr 8 minutes ago, vikas83 said: I mean, this is your epic run post Andrew Jackson: Van Buren, WH Harrison, Tyler, Polk, Taylor, Fillmore, Pierce, Buchanan. That's just unreal ineptitude. That is why I always take the hyperbole of 'current X president is the worst ever!' with a grain of salt There have been so, so, so many bad presidents in our country's history that it is a shock that we not only survived them, but thrived.
June 9, 20223 yr 4 minutes ago, pallidrone said: That is why I always take the hyperbole of 'current X president is the worst ever!' with a grain of salt There have been so, so, so many bad presidents in our country's history that it is a shock that we not only survived them, but thrived. I guess others for the garbage pile: JQ Adams -- really, it's about how we has elected by the House and screwed Jackson by cutting a deal with Clay Grant -- just EPIC corruption Hayes -- another deal in the House, this time to end reconciliation Garfield, Arthur, Cleveland and B Harrison -- totally forgettable Harding - Grant's corruption without the war hero bit Hoover -- volunteerism...smart Really, the run of Cold War Presidents wasn't all that bad. LBJ was terrible, but that's because his policies were awful. He was at least impactful. EDIT: It's also hard to compare the 19th century guys to current guys given the massive expansion of the power of the office
June 9, 20223 yr 18 minutes ago, vikas83 said: I mean, this is your epic run post Andrew Jackson: Van Buren, WH Harrison, Tyler, Polk, Taylor, Fillmore, Pierce, Buchanan. That's just unreal ineptitude. Wilson also deserves serious consideration.
June 9, 20223 yr 8 minutes ago, BBE said: Wilson also deserves serious consideration. He kinda always get the WW1 pass, but he gave us the Fed and the income tax... He also failed to get support for his signature achievement, the League of Nations.
June 9, 20223 yr 18 minutes ago, vikas83 said: He kinda always get the WW1 pass, but he gave us the Fed and the income tax... He also failed to get support for his signature achievement, the League of Nations. Don’t forget he let women get the right to vote. </TEW>
June 9, 20223 yr 3 hours ago, EaglesRocker97 said: Drinking and typing on a damn phone. Don't do it, kids! Hell then I'd never post here. Maybe that'd be for the best though..
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