12 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Yeah year 3. I believe he was 26 tds and 14 ints. Made nfc title game and lost to the giants 

Right.  Plus he also went to the NFCCG w/ the Vikes later.  Point is he can bounce back from a terrible season.  Not saying he will but Wentz can too.

17 hours ago, ManuManu said:

I like him, but that’s a wild comp. Prime Odell was an elite separator, maybe the best in the NFL. 

Scouts have his ceiling as being "multiple pro-bowl potential".  He would have likely been a sure first round pick last year.   He seems to be able to do it all, elite hands, great ball tracking ability, great route running, good separation, good YAC,  and that was with "ok" QB play.  The only thing that could hold him back at this point (from being a sure 1st rounder) is his 40 time.  If he runs closer to a 4.5, then he might drop to the 2nd round (which could actually benefit the Eagles).  If he runs closer to a 4.4 he'll likely be a top 20-30 pick.

 

1 hour ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

What is the historical comparison of a player dropping off as bad as Wentz has at this point in his career and he has bounced back?

You asked the question and this is probably the best answer in terms of a comparison.

2020 Wentz:

12 GP, 251 comp, 437 att, 57.4 comp%, 6.0 YPA, 16 TDs, 15 INTs, 50 sacks, 6 fumbles, 72.8 rating

2008 Big Ben:
16 GP, 448 comp, 658 att, 59.9 comp%, 7.0 YPA, 17 TDs, 15 INTs, 46 sacks, 10 fumbles, 80.1 rating

2009 Big Ben:

15 GP, 337 comp, 506 att, 66.6 comp%, 8.6 YPA, 26 TDs, 12 INTs, 50 sacks, 4 fumbles, 100.5 rating

Pretty good bounce back for Big Ben.  BTW, 2008 was also his 5th season just like this past season was Wentz's 5th.  Another thing, in 2008 Big Ben had Hines Ward, Santonio Holmes, Nate Washington and Heath Miller as his top 4 targets and still put up those mediocre stats.  Who were Wentz's top 4 targets in 2020?  And Big Ben didn't have to play behind a different OL combination every game like Wentz did.  Context.  Because it matters.

Also notice how Big Ben put up better stats while throwing the ball LESS times.  In 2008 he attempted 41.1 passes/game while in 2009 it was only 33.7/game, which is an 18% decrease.  Hmmm, there might be something there to having a more balanced O scheme, which is what Sirianni's O scheme is supposed to be like.

Point is that nobody can predict the future.  The only thing we can do is speculate, though some of us do that while also using stats with context while others just think their personal bias is a fact.  And that goes for both sides of the aisle here.  My big question on Wentz is if he has the mental toughness to come back strong and listen to the coaches and understand that he has to tweak his game now that he doesn't have the same physical ability he did his first 2 seasons.  He has the athletic tools to be a top 10 QB.  He just needs to get his mind on the same  page.  If he can do that then he should be able to have a bounce back season similar to what Big Ben did.  Why not?  New HC/O staff with a new scheme and proven experience in previous seasons of improving the QB/WR play.  And the key thing is a different way of practicing so there won't be as many injuries, especially to the OL.  The team was mostly fit under Chip, but under Doug a walking MASH unit.  I don't think that's just bad luck.

What I don't get is why/how some people (and not just here, but the entire fan base) hate Wentz so much.  It's like the guy did some evil personally to people.  All he's done is started charities in the community (Thy Kingdom Crumb, his softball fundraiser at CBP, his Ao1 Foundation) and compete (even while playing hurt) to win.  What?  Just because he hasn't taken to twitter like a 13yo girl you're pissed at him?  I think some fans need a health pack containing some Midol, Summer's Eve, tampons and chocolate to help with their irrational hate.

 

40 minutes ago, 315Eagles said:

Didnt Favre have a bad season where he had 18-18, right after they drafted Rodgers.  He bounced back the next year.  Tannehill was bad, went to a new coaching staff that used him differently, been playing pretty good, wouldn't you say?

I dont know if Wentz will bounce back.  I'm not saying it's a lock to happen.  Just my opinion that I think he can.  If he doesnt then oh well.  But I dont know.  Hurts can be the starter next year and throw for 50 TDs or he could throw for 50 interceptions. Who knows?

 

 

Yeah, when Favre was 37 years old in his 16th season.  Which is right about when you would expect good QBs to start having bad seasons.  He wasn't 28 years old in his 5th season after having consecutive declining season prior to falling off completely in that 5th year.  

Tannehill was never as bad as Wentz was last season.  And it wasn't that Tannehill was really good and then became really bad, he just wasn't just anything much more than above average during his time in Miami and he became a better QB in Tennessee.  Not even comparable career trajectory.  

 

As for Hurts you are right.  Which is why we need to see.  We already know with Wentz.  His chance for success is not here and it doesn't look that good regardless.  

1 hour ago, downundermike said:

Explain how he looked better ??  He led the team to points on 2 of 22 second half possessions.  1 being a short field after a turnover.

Hurts is a better runner. Thats it

52 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Oh of course they’re going to spin it. That’s what they always do. I don’t necessarily fully buy in that they believe they’re in a full rebuild. I think they believe it has to be rebuilt but not to the extent that everyone else sees it. I think they probably believe the division is so bad that they can compete next year

Miami went 10-6 in the second season of a full rebuild. Combination of better coaching, a few money FAs, some SFAs, some UDFAs, and a good 2020 draft.

This was after they traded a 2nd and 5th for Rosen.

Pick up Flowers as a SFA and put him at guard. Ogbah DE. Elandon Roberts ILB. Sieler DE.

Signed Byron Jones S and Kyle Van Noy LB and Shaq Lawson DE as FAs,

picked up Eric Rowe as a SFA in 2019 and moved him from CB to SS. Preston Williams WR UDFA-2019, Needham CB UDFA-19.

Jackson LT #18-2020, Baker OL #39-2020, Reokwon Davis DT  #56-2020, Simon Kindley OL #111-20.

Adam Shahen TE, for 7th rd pick

20.

Philadelphia Eagles

Rashod Bateman

WR, Minnesota

 

28.

Philadelphia Eagles

Asante Samuel Jr.

CB, Florida State

 

41.

Philadelphia Eagles

Christian Barmore

IDL, Alabama

 

60.

Philadelphia Eagles

Trevon Moehrig

S, TCU

 

70.

Philadelphia Eagles

Pete Werner

LB, Ohio State

 

73.

Philadelphia Eagles

Josh Myers

IOL, Ohio State

 

83.

Philadelphia Eagles

Quincy Roche

EDGE, Miami

 

114.

Philadelphia Eagles

Michael Carter

RB, North Carolina

 

117.

Philadelphia Eagles

Dyami Brown

WR, North Carolina

 

151.

Philadelphia Eagles

Kary Vincent Jr.

CB, LSU

 

165.

Philadelphia Eagles

Joshuah Bledsoe

S, Missouri

 

192.

Philadelphia Eagles

Olaijah Griffin

CB, USC

 

198.

Philadelphia Eagles

Nick Eubanks

TE, Michigan

23 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

 I just don't think Wentz has what it takes mentally.  

Wondering why some have said this only because some reporters have claimed it? 

Even though false reports are claimed weekly that hes unhappy and will request a trade. He has hated Doug, Hated Howie, Hated Frank, Hated Flip but he has yet to say it out of his own mouth. 

I think Wentz is one of the more mentally stable QBs in the league. Has been silent on the social scene which is a good thing to avoid drama. Hasn't blown up on a presser. Hasn't thrown any teammates or coaches under the bus. Hes done nothing but be a professional about the situation despite all the fail made up rumors. There has been zero evidence to state otherwise. Still trying to figure out how he doesn't have what it takes mentally? 

30 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I really don't get how anyone could watch Hurts and Wentz and come to the summary that Wentz was better. Sorry but I just don't get that. Wentz was literally the worst starting QB in the NFL. 

It's pretty easy, erase the 3 complete dog ish games Hurts had and only count the game against the Saints. Where he apparently was good, yet did literally nothing as a QB.  Objectively compare that game to every start Wentz had this year.  Wentz > Hurts.  

Hell Wentz was complete trash in the game he got benched in, but even outperformed Hurts in the game Hurts got benched in.

Those mock drafts simulators are so unrealistic , they allow you to draft players who have no shot at lasting that long.

Did Lawrence run at his pro day or just throw? I was curious what his 40 would be cause hes fast. 

23 minutes ago, austinfan said:

Miami went 10-6 in the second season of a full rebuild. Combination of better coaching, a few money FAs, some SFAs, some UDFAs, and a good 2020 draft.

This was after they traded a 2nd and 5th for Rosen.

Pick up Flowers as a SFA and put him at guard. Ogbah DE. Elandon Roberts ILB. Sieler DE.

Signed Byron Jones S and Kyle Van Noy LB and Shaq Lawson DE as FAs,

picked up Eric Rowe as a SFA in 2019 and moved him from CB to SS. Preston Williams WR UDFA-2019, Needham CB UDFA-19.

Jackson LT #18-2020, Baker OL #39-2020, Reokwon Davis DT  #56-2020, Simon Kindley OL #111-20.

Adam Shahen TE, for 7th rd pick

And Miami purposefully tanked for a year in 2019 with a rookie HC. Also Miami had cap space and werent 60 mil over nor did they have an old expensive roster with their older players exiting or at the end of their prime as they began their rebuild. And it took them a complete season with their rookie coach to get on the right track. Furthermore it took 3 seasons of below .500 to get to 10-6. So means the eagles would have 2 more to go. Eagles coming off a bad year will have a rookie head coach. drafting the last two years that hasn’t been very fruitful and have aging veterans exiting their prime on big contracts. Nor can they sign players like Byron jones at the moment to help out  

so great it took the Dolphins 3 below .500 seasons to get to 10-6. And nailed their head coach whereas the eagles are a complete question mark there, older roster, no cap and since 2016 been the second worse drafting team. Didn’t have Adam Gase  destroying the roster for bringing them to where they were and then keep him on board. We have 1/2 the guys still in place that got to the point of where we are. Dolphins redid everything. 

10 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

 

Yeah, when Favre was 37 years old in his 16th season.  Which is right about when you would expect good QBs to start having bad seasons.  He wasn't 28 years old in his 5th season after having consecutive declining season prior to falling off completely in that 5th year.  

Tannehill was never as bad as Wentz was last season.  And it wasn't that Tannehill was really good and then became really bad, he just wasn't just anything much more than above average during his time in Miami and he became a better QB in Tennessee.  Not even comparable career trajectory.  

 

As for Hurts you are right.  Which is why we need to see.  We already know with Wentz.  His chance for success is not here and it doesn't look that good regardless.  

Wouldn't a QB having a bad season in his 16th year be more cause for concern than a QB having a bad year in his 5th?  Pretty sure Favre had other subpar seasons besides year 16.  If an older Favre could do it why couldnt Wentz?

Again, not saying he will because I dont know.  

8 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

Did Lawrence run at his pro day or just throw? I was curious what his 40 would be cause hes fast. 

He ran a 3.8

I am not sure what the cap implications would be but could we draft Sewell and trade Johnson for a large haul?

1 minute ago, 315Eagles said:

Wouldn't a QB having a bad season in his 16th year be more cause for concern than a QB having a bad year in his 5th?  Pretty sure Favre had other subpar seasons besides year 16.  If an older Favre could do it why couldnt Wentz?

Again, not saying he will because I dont know.  

 

Both a reason for concern.  Packers rightfully made the jump at Rodgers when they did.  

Difference is that Favre had a large body of work to fall back on.  And a decline late in in his career is natural that you would expect.  

Wentz having a great 2nd season and then two seasons that were still good but not as good as the season prior before completely falling off and being one of the worst QBs in the league and just playing the absolute worst level of football for anyone to watch in his 5th year when he is 28 and should be entering the prime of his career is for cause for major concern.  Especially with all of the reports of how much of a pain in the ass he is to coach and how he has flat-out disregarded what coaches have been trying to tell him for several years now.  

 

Wentz had a lot of potential and was great QB at one point early in his career.  But a lot of things have changes over the years both mentally and physically for him and that just isn't who he is anymore.  He's a bad QB right now.  One of the worst in the league.  In a QB desperate league with half of the league desperate for a QB the Eagles can't even get a first for a 28 year old who should be in the prime of his career and is locked into a long term deal.  

1 minute ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

Both a reason for concern.  Packers rightfully made the jump at Rodgers when they did.  

Difference is that Favre had a large body of work to fall back on.  And a decline late in in his career is natural that you would expect.  

Wentz having a great 2nd season and then two seasons that were still good but not as good as the season prior before completely falling off and being one of the worst QBs in the league and just playing the absolute worst level of football for anyone to watch in his 5th year when he is 28 and should be entering the prime of his career is for cause for major concern.  Especially with all of the reports of how much of a pain in the ass he is to coach and how he has flat-out disregarded what coaches have been trying to tell him for several years now.  

 

Wentz had a lot of potential and was great QB at one point early in his career.  But a lot of things have changes over the years both mentally and physically for him and that just isn't who he is anymore.  He's a bad QB right now.  One of the worst in the league.  In a QB desperate league with half of the league desperate for a QB the Eagles can't even get a first for a 28 year old who should be in the prime of his career and is locked into a long term deal.  

That's why they hired Sirianni. 

If a team makes a significant offer for Wentz then they most likely move him.  If not, he will be the QB for the Eagles in 2021.  Just my thoughts.

1 minute ago, 315Eagles said:

Wouldn't a QB having a bad season in his 16th year be more cause for concern than a QB having a bad year in his 5th?  Pretty sure Favre had other subpar seasons besides year 16.  If an older Favre could do it why couldnt Wentz?

Again, not saying he will because I dont know.  

In his 8th full season in 1999 (that would be during his prime years) he had a 57.3 comp%, 6.9 YPA, 22 TDs, 23 INTs with 35 sacks and 8 fumbles for a 74.7 rating.  His primary WRs were Antonio Freeman and Bill Schroeder, each with over 1000 yards and 11 TDs combined, Dorsey Levens had 1000+yds rushing while also have 50+ receptions for 500+yds.  Seems that season they had injuries as both Donald Driver and Mark Chmura were on the team, but only played in 8 games between them. 

8 minutes ago, Khani1 said:

I am not sure what the cap implications would be but could we draft Sewell and trade Johnson for a large haul?

 

 

Looks like it'd be possible to trade him after June 1st.

 

1 minute ago, Green_Guinness said:

 

 

Looks like it'd be possible to trade him after June 1st.

 

If only we were drafting a couple spots higher.  He probably won't be available with our pick.

3 minutes ago, Green_Guinness said:

 

 

Looks like it'd be possible to trade him after June 1st.

 

 Not worth it. He’d have 21M in dead money in 2022 if you post June trade him 

1 minute ago, LeanMeanGM said:

 Not worth it. He’d have 21M in dead money in 2022 if you post June trade him 

So the only number that counts in figure 2 is the year he'd be traded (for 2021 an $8.1M dead cap hit), but the other numbers from figure 1 still pertain after that ($21M in 2022 and $14M in 2023)?

Howie really gambled with Johnson and all the restructures. They are pretty much tied together until 2024 until it starts to make sense to move him.

13 minutes ago, 315Eagles said:

That's why they hired Sirianni. 

If a team makes a significant offer for Wentz then they most likely move him.  If not, he will be the QB for the Eagles in 2021.  Just my thoughts.

Probably.

  The only other issue, imo, is if Wentz will work hard enough to get his career turned around here in Philly.  If he stays. he will need to let bygones be bygones, accept the coaching from the new coaching staff and understand that there could be "open competition" for the starting QB role come camp time.  And he should do it for himself...because if he has another sub-par season in 2021, it will undoubtedly hurt his image around the league and his career as a whole.

 

We just have to hope Lane comes back strong after the ankle issue. When healthy, he's one of the best in the biz. Like others above have said, Eagles are attached to that contract over the next few years.

Anyone think Dillard nets something of value worth trading this time around if they believe Mailata to be the anchor at LT?

Just now, Green_Guinness said:

So the only number that counts in figure 2 is the year he'd be traded (for 2021 an $8.1M dead cap hit), but the other numbers from figure 1 still pertain after that ($21M in 2022 and $14M in 2023)?

No. The way OTC shows the tables is what the numbers would be if you cut/trade in that specific year. Also post June 1st means you are just allocating dead money across two years. That years cap obligations hit in that year and everything else across the contract is accelerated into the next year. 
 

Here’s the trick with OTC and post June 1st. Take the dead money in figure one. That’s going to be the cost to trade him in every scenario, every time, so for 2021 it’s $29M. Then look at figure 2. $8M in dead money for 2021. Then just subtract the numbers of figure 2 from figure 1 and that’s what will be in 2022.