Gross

6 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

Gross

Good news I guess....

Has a team ever appeared on Hard Knocks and won a SB?  I dont remember any.

My guess is half the airtime will be devoted to Jerry Jones. 

2 minutes ago, 315Eagles said:

Good news I guess....

Has a team ever appeared on Hard Knocks and won a SB?  I dont remember any.

No, but that's because good teams are usually disqualified 

11 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

Gross

Those things are only interesting if they have a team on with a weird, loose-cannon of a head coach.  NYG and DET would have been the best choices.

40 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

Then I believe you read the chart wrong.  What the red reflected was receiving yards per routes run.   The yards per catch for each of the players reflected the depth of route and to some degree the accuracy of deeper routes.   Ward had very few drops on catchable balls.  Hightower, OTOH.  Reagor had a few drops too, but that was an issue for him out of TCU, concentration drops.  Their red placement is reflected by those drops some.   And Doug absolutely misused Hightower.  Over the should deep routes work for DJax (and Smith, who can run any route) but are not in most WRs wheelhouse.  So why run those with Hightower   F’d with his mind a bit.  

We heard it from JJAW after his first year bust that Doug wanted him to learn all the positions and all the routes.  Learn, yes, run no and it sure appeared that Doug wanted all receivers to be able to run all routes.  That’s nonsense.  Rather tailor routes for a WR’s strengths.  We hear from Sirianni that no WR is truly an X,Y or Z but that rather they will be in positions based on what they are expected to run on a given play and that he plans based on player strengths.  Expect to see slants with Hightower, if he makes the team, for example.  Surely some fly and post routes for Watkins.  Box out routes for JJAW, if he can learn a one step stop and makes the team.  No fly routes for Ward but possibly some plays where Hurts leads him.  All sorts of routes for Ward (jack of all trades, master of none), Reagor and especially Smith.  Plays that take advantage of Fulgham’s size and quickness.   Intermediate throws to players that aren’t TEs (which came to be so predictable under Doug).

Last year, and relatively true for most of his career, Wentz hasn’t been good at leading a WR.  He lasers in throws with placement throws but doesn’t anticipate routes well.  (We saw a lot of timing throws and spot throws under Reich and he will see that again). That deep lob in shorts from Hurts to Smith is not a ball every high schooler can throw, it is leading the receiver.   That on intermediate and deep routes leads to higher YAC and greater reception yards.  The depth of routes isn’t on WRs, it is on the coach.  YAC is as much QB ball placement as it is a WRs ability to run after the catch.

There has been a lot of discussion about whether Brady is a GOAT on the Blog this past week.  Well Brady is a GOAT at leading a WR although Joe Montana and Brees were pretty good at it too. None have massive arm strength  Rodgers is amazing at it with the deep ball as is Wilson. (Metcalf’s success is as much Wilson and Carroll’s offense as his skill).  

Inability to lead WRs is a flaw in most QBs’ arsenals. But you see some ability at it in Hurts game.  Now if only he learns to trust his ball placement when a laser is needed, his WRs and his OL as much as he trusts his legs. He may evolve from a one look and go QB.  I really think his accuracy and his ability to anticipate the WR is why the Eagles felt comfortable moving on from Wentz and passing on Fields. But he must overcome his tendency to jump to running.  (And he has to protect the ball better.). 
 

 

No. I know exactly what that chart means. It’s pointless to discuss Ward with you because you think him catching a bunch of six yard catches is somehow a good thing when any JAG can do it. 

Ward’s low yards per route run is not just because he ran short routes, it’s because he can’t beat anyone downfield. He’s neither quick nor fast. He’s not a great route runner. He doesn’t separate. You put so much blame on Doug’s offense without acknowledging Ward’s own limitations playing a role in his deployment.

Reagor’s poor yards per route run vs man is indicative of his poor attention to detail. He didn’t stem routes well. His releases were bad. He gave up on routes.  He had no idea what he was doing out there. There’s a reason he had the second lowest grade vs man coverage that Matt Harmon had ever charted. 

1 hour ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

He seems like the type that looks forward to "getting that checked” on the reg

Hey coming over to watch the Belgium/Italy game? I got white claws on ice 

28 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

Those things are only interesting if they have a team on with a weird, loose-cannon of a head coach.  NYG and DET would have been the best choices.

A weird loose-cannon owner is good enough. 

9 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

Sure.  You don’t work the drive thru tonight? 

Faking sick 

1 hour ago, BigEFly said:

If that is me you are targeting, I never said that.  I did say that Ward was running a lot of RB routes last year.  His YAC is not a strongpoint by any sense.  But that chart was receiving yards to routes run against man coverage.   What you see with Ward is a lot of routes run against man in Cover 1 and Cover 2.  Well, that figures as he ran routes mainly from the slot last year.   The only reflection on separation might be the lack of YAC, but that is better reflected by his average depth at catch, IIRC something around five yards last year and his average per reception, around 8 yards last year suggesting a YAC last year of about 3.4 yards, IIRC.  (Like I said, a lot of RB routes last year). That means he wasn’t running away from the defender much but ball placement didn’t really afford him much opportunity for that.  

An understanding of predictive analytics shows how meaningless this chart is on its own.   It is so one dimensional and really leads itself to not much of a conclusion.  I would include that information with type of routes run, from what position, the other routes on the play,  type of defender, progression, and a whole lot of other aspects to come up with a truly predictive model. Now not all data factors will be predictive on who and what succeeds against man coverage but that the job of Howie’s analytics group to couple them.  I surely hope his staff is better at it than the creator of this chart.  It’s why I don’t put a lot of stock in PFF’s stuff, for example.  It can be interesting at times but tends to be way too one dimensional and thus not truly predictive. 

It sincerely wasn't a jab at you. You genuinely seem like a good poster and typically give well thought, coherent posts 

I was talking about the forum troll.

1 hour ago, EaglePhan1986 said:

Hey coming over to watch the Belgium/Italy game? I got white claws on ice 

Carb free, low sugar alcohol for someone like me who has had a lower leg bypass is gold.

2 hours ago, LeanMeanGM said:

Gross

I don't know.  It's not like any of them are likeable.  So maybe it will be good theater and focus my hatred.  

3 hours ago, LeanMeanGM said:

Gross

 

 

Always up for seeing how incompetent Mike McCarthy is. 

3 hours ago, bpac55 said:

Nope, there isn't.  For that matter, there isn't much investment in the defensive backfield at all.  The highest Eagles draft pick in the secondary is a 4th round pick.  The rest as you alluded to are 6th rounders and UDFA.  Eventually they have to start using premium picks at the position. They can't just keep hoping to strike gold on someone else's trash. 

I really don't understand why they were so fast to cut their 2nd and 3rd round investments before their rookie contracts were up in Sidney Jones and Rasul Douglas.  Were they setting the world on fire?  No.  Did they show potential?  Yes.  Were they that bad to cut them before their rookie deals were up with basically nothing on the roster to replace them. I don't think so.  Both Jones and Douglas would be better options at CB2 than anyone on the current roster. 

I'm holding out hope that they double dip at CB in round 1 next year.  There's some supreme talent at the position.  What's more likely to happen is that Maddox plays ehhh so they extend him for 2 years and McPherson shows some potential so they don't think they need to use a premium pick on the position despite the talent available.  

I have no idea what their thought process is anymore.

 

Jones and Douglas could be traded because they had potential, as you put it, and their rookie contracts were easy to take.  Good items always go faster and easier than the so-so ones, simple market dynamics.

Not sure what the coaches want to do with the CBs.  Possibly they just run with what they have now, and shoot for some of talents in the next draft.  If some decent ones become available at cut-down time, they might get additional help that way.   

2 hours ago, ManuManu said:

No. I know exactly what that chart means. It’s pointless to discuss Ward with you because you think him catching a bunch of six yard catches is somehow a good thing when any JAG can do it. 

Ward’s low yards per route run is not just because he ran short routes, it’s because he can’t beat anyone downfield. He’s neither quick nor fast. He’s not a great route runner. He doesn’t separate. You put so much blame on Doug’s offense without acknowledging Ward’s own limitations playing a role in his deployment.

Reagor’s poor yards per route run vs man is indicative of his poor attention to detail. He didn’t stem routes well. His releases were bad. He gave up on routes.  He had no idea what he was doing out there. There’s a reason he had the second lowest grade vs man coverage that Matt Harmon had ever charted. 

You are completely misreading this.  The chart is yards receiving on the y axis and routes run against man coverage in Cover 1 and Cover 2 on the x axis with the line representing the mean. Now couple that with what we know about Ward’s average catch yard, in other words yards beyond the line of scrimmage where targeted, and it is obvious that he was running shallow routes.  Doug said he had shallow route options for Wentz to build his confidence.  Now, I don’t disagree that it could be that he may have limited Ward to primarily short routes because of Ward’s own limitations.  We will find out if Sirianni does the same thing.  Ward doesn’t get a lot of separation, as reflected in his YAC average although a number of the routes he was targeted on weren’t designed for YAC but rather catch the first down.   If any JAG can catch like Ward, the NFL would be full of speedsters.  I disagree with you about his route running too.  But I have said for two years, he can be improved on.  In a way, he has with the selection of Smith.

Reagor's growth was stunted by his injury and he never really got in rhythm, at least I hope so.  You may recall the biggest cheerleaders before the draft last year for Justin Jefferson were @Iggles_Phan and me, so I am hardly team Reagor, but on he list are two WRs that made reputations in college because of YAC, Reagor and Hightower.   Now maybe both are busts or maybe Doug’s offense became as predictable as opponents said.  

Sure the receivers have responsibility for their results but the scheme certainly played into that.  I mentioned this before.  Under Chip, the Eagles got pretty good with mesh routes.  Heck even Ertz got YAC with some of them.  The were incorporated in Doug’s first year and even somewhat evident in 2017.  Reich leaves and they are gone from the offense.  You have to admit the route scheming went downhill after Reich left.  Apparently, it went to Indy.  Some of this is on Pederson.  

2 hours ago, Swoop said:

It sincerely wasn't a jab at you. You genuinely seem like a good poster and typically give well thought, coherent posts 

I was talking about the forum troll.

Probably someone I have on ignore. I tend to do that with the trolls.   Coherency is fleeting for me though.  I do tend to be overly optimistic at times.   

4 hours ago, bpac55 said:

Nope, there isn't.  For that matter, there isn't much investment in the defensive backfield at all.  The highest Eagles draft pick in the secondary is a 4th round pick.  The rest as you alluded to are 6th rounders and UDFA.  Eventually they have to start using premium picks at the position. They can't just keep hoping to strike gold on someone else's trash. 

I really don't understand why they were so fast to cut their 2nd and 3rd round investments before their rookie contracts were up in Sidney Jones and Rasul Douglas.  Were they setting the world on fire?  No.  Did they show potential?  Yes.  Were they that bad to cut them before their rookie deals were up with basically nothing on the roster to replace them. I don't think so.  Both Jones and Douglas would be better options at CB2 than anyone on the current roster. 

I'm holding out hope that they double dip at CB in round 1 next year.  There's some supreme talent at the position.  What's more likely to happen is that Maddox plays ehhh so they extend him for 2 years and McPherson shows some potential so they don't think they need to use a premium pick on the position despite the talent available.  

I have no idea what their thought process is anymore.

 

After WR, the next most likely to fail position in the first round is CB.  On the other hand, it is a position where gems show up in later rounds and UDFAs.  Asante was a fourth round pick.  Richard Sherman was a fifth rounder.  Douglas was a head scratcher to me.  But Jones flopping was a surprise.  That happens sometimes with CBs.  

I like McPhearson.  Tommy Lawlor’s and Matt Alkire’s (both former Bloggers) write ups on him a pretty spot on.  Not blazing speed but he tackles and he doesn’t seem to get out of position.  I am reminded a bit of Sheldon Brown.  Similar speed and a heady player.  If he grabs the CB2 spot and Maddox can concentrate on slot, if the CBs stay healthy this year, they may be better than anticipated. It’s preseason green colored glasses time.

 

18 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

You are completely misreading this.  The chart is yards receiving on the y axis and routes run against man coverage in Cover 1 and Cover 2 on the x axis with the line representing the mean. Now couple that with what we know about Ward’s average catch yard, in other words yards beyond the line of scrimmage where targeted, and it is obvious that he was running shallow routes.  Doug said he had shallow route options for Wentz to build his confidence.  Now, I don’t disagree that it could be that he may have limited Ward to primarily short routes because of Ward’s own limitations.  We will find out if Sirianni does the same thing.  Ward doesn’t get a lot of separation, as reflected in his YAC average although a number of the routes he was targeted on weren’t designed for YAC but rather catch the first down.   If any JAG can catch like Ward, the NFL would be full of speedsters.  I disagree with you about his route running too.  But I have said for two years, he can be improved on.  In a way, he has with the selection of Smith.

Reagor's growth was stunted by his injury and he never really got in rhythm, at least I hope so.  You may recall the biggest cheerleaders before the draft last year for Justin Jefferson were @Iggles_Phan and me, so I am hardly team Reagor, but on he list are two WRs that made reputations in college because of YAC, Reagor and Hightower.   Now maybe both are busts or maybe Doug’s offense became as predictable as opponents said.  

Sure the receivers have responsibility for their results but the scheme certainly played into that.  I mentioned this before.  Under Chip, the Eagles got pretty good with mesh routes.  Heck even Ertz got YAC with some of them.  The were incorporated in Doug’s first year and even somewhat evident in 2017.  Reich leaves and they are gone from the offense.  You have to admit the route scheming went downhill after Reich left.  Apparently, it went to Indy.  Some of this is on Pederson.  

I’m not misreading it. It’s how many routes run vs man coverage (cover 1 and 2) and how many yards receiving vs man coverage (cover 1 and 2). 

Ward ran a lot of routes and had very little yardage, so a poor yards per route run. 

5 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

I’m not misreading it. It’s how many routes run vs man coverage (cover 1 and 2) and how many yards receiving vs man coverage (cover 1 and 2). 

Ward ran a lot of routes and had very little yardage, so a poor yards per route run. 

I don't think the chart says anything about separation or quality of WR play.  It's as much about the quality of the QB as anything else.  I'm not on team Ward or saying he's great but that chart tells me nothing about how good he is as a receiver given how bad the offense was.  

15 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

I don't think the chart says anything about separation or quality of WR play.  It's as much about the quality of the QB as anything else.  I'm not on team Ward or saying he's great but that chart tells me nothing about how good he is as a receiver given how bad the offense was.  

It has to be done "per target".  You can run routes all day long but if the ball doesn't come your way you're not compiling any yards.

18 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

I don't think the chart says anything about separation or quality of WR play.  It's as much about the quality of the QB as anything else.  I'm not on team Ward or saying he's great but that chart tells me nothing about how good he is as a receiver given how bad the offense was.  

Nothing? I disagree with that. It’s simply more evidence of him being an ineffective and inefficient receiver. Of course there are other factors to consider, but there is no metric that shows Ward being good or effective. The stats, analytics and eye test are all in agreement.  

Do I have to list all my evidence every time we discuss how mediocre Ward is? Yards per target? ADot? His "highlight” reel? 

He runs a lot of routes against easy coverage and does very little with it. For two years now. 

16 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

It has to be done "per target".  You can run routes all day long but if the ball doesn't come your way you're not compiling any yards.

Targets often go to players who frequently get open. Yards per route run is a great stat that reflects quality of play. 

13 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

Targets often go to players who frequently get open. Yards per route run is a great stat that reflects quality of play. 

It's only a great stat with great data; those graphs look spotty to me.  There's no way Fitzgerald, Hollywood Brown and Mecole Hardman were all under 100 yards for the whole season vs man coverage.  Possibly Hardman -- because defenses would man-up Kelce and Hill, but the other two I don't buy.

3 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

It's only a great stat with great data; those graphs look spotty to me.  There's no way Fitzgerald, Hollywood Brown and Mecole Hardman were all under 100 yards for the whole season vs man coverage.  Possibly Hardman -- because defenses would man-up Kelce and Hill, but the other two I don't buy.

Sports Info Solutions seems to be really highly regarded for its data, but obviously I have no idea how accurate it is. I assume Winks went with cover 1 and cover 2 man because they’re the most common man coverage. 

37 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

Nothing? I disagree with that. It’s simply more evidence of him being an ineffective and inefficient receiver. Of course there are other factors to consider, but there is no metric that shows Ward being good or effective. The stats, analytics and eye test are all in agreement.  

Do I have to list all my evidence every time we discuss how mediocre Ward is? Yards per target? ADot? His "highlight” reel? 

He runs a lot of routes against easy coverage and does very little with it. For two years now. 

Ward is not mediocre, by a long shot.

6 hours ago, Alphagrand said:

There isn't any draft investment at CB2 anymore.  Maddox was a 4th, McPhearson is a 4th, Josiah Scott is a 4th, Kevon Seymour was a 6th

James is UDFA, Jacquet is UDFA, Arnold is UDFA, Lavert Hill is UDFA, Shakial Taylor is UDFA.  

That's embarrassing