16 minutes ago, greend said:

Ummmm?

I should have worded it better, but I think they should hire a high risk high reward coach. But what will most likely happen is they hire a yes man for Howie to have full control.

1 hour ago, austinfan said:

McDaniels traded Marshall and replaced him with Lloyd. Lloyd's best season before McDaniels was 733 yards at 24 years old, at 29 he put up 1448 yards under McDaniels. Gaffney also had his career years under McDaniels.

The St Louis team was similar to the Eagles last year, with players going down like flies. Lloyd 10 starts, Gibson 9 starts, Alexander 5 starts, Pettis 3 starts, Sims-Walker 3 starts, Hoomanawanui 10 starts, Amendola 1 game. Bajema 12 starts at TE. Kendricks was a rookie FB/TE, 10 starts. Stafford 9 starts at LT, Smith 6 starts at RT.

The next season, Bradford plays all 16 games, Givens starts 12 games as a rookie, Amendola lasts for 11 games, Gibson and Pettis, Kendricks starts at TE, Stafford goes down again but the new RT plays 16 games. They went from horrible to average.

Orton was benched his second season in Chicago, third season 79.6 rating, 48.2 QBR, under McDaniels 86.8/56.9 and 87.5/53.8. After that he wasn't a starter until he was 32 in Buffalo, throwing to Watkins, Woods, Hogan and Chandler. 87.8/43.9.

Cassell stepped in for Brady with only a slight falloff.

I don't think anyone is a genius in the NFL, but McDaniels has a solid track record. As far as the Belichick "tree," note that most of his coaches were defensive coaches, and since he runs the defense, the question was always how much did they do?

Meanwhile people are touting Brady over one season as OC in Carolina or Smith off two seasons in Tennessee?

One danger with short-term "wonders" is the league doesn't have film on their team, a couple more seasons and everyone knows their tendencies.

Not saying McDaniels would be the right choice, but there is no reason to think the flavors of the month will be superior HCs.

The biggest question is whether he's matured as a person and a coach after being humbled, some do, some never grow up, just learn to lie better.

his Lloyd move might have been his best move he made in Denver. So considering the rest of the moves he made in Denver he hit one out of the park. Gaffney also pulled a Travis fulgham 5 game stretch where he played great. He was solid for 11 games but had a 5 game stretch in there where he killed it that year. Had 115, 72, 92, 85 and 77 with 3 tds. After thay stretch he had then really never heard from again. Credit he got 11 games out of him. Meanwhile the offense still wasn’t very good even with two WR having production.   

Additionally orton’s 2014 season he had a QB rating of 87.8. The highest of his career. So once again you haven’t proven to me mcdaniels only had orton playing at a competent QB. There were two other seasons in his career without mcdaniels where orton played NFL QB level is what you said. You said mcdaniels was the only one. So once again he had two seasons without mcdaniels as coach where he showed to be at a nfl QB level. I never said he played spectacular. I said he played an NFL quarterback level which you claim he only did for two seasons meanwhile those two seasons statistically are very similar besides QBR which frankly as always had issues. I don’t care about his second season with the bears or his first. He had one nfl QB level year with Chicago in year 3. and one nfl QB level year with buffalo. meanwhile you said mcdaniels was the only one who got him playing at a nfl QB level. That wasn’t true. So let’s quit making up facts like mcdaniels was the only one who got orton’s playing at a nfl level QB. Facts are he had 4 years of nfl QB level. 2 with mcdaniels and 2 with other coaches 

Again they went from horrible to average with schottenheimer. They also didn’t stay healthy that year. RT Saffold played 10 games. Their starting LG ojinakka missed 11 games. Amendola played 11 games yet again like 2011. Gibson and givens started games for them. One was a rookie and they too missed a combined 3 games. and they didn’t exactly have less talent. Actually lost talent in Lloyd that offseason who was their best WR. Started a rookie WR in givens or gibson when amendola missed the 5 games like in 2011. Kendrick a was the starting tight end in 2012 for Bradford so kendricks starting in 2011 really is the same. Again you act like in 2012 they didn’t have injuries. They lost her left guard for 11 games and suffered injuries and had worst overall talent at WR. So they had less talent from the wide receiver position and injuries in 2012. So both years they had injuries and yet one year mcdaniels was 32nd in the league with Bradford for 10 games and schottenheimer was 16th. You could make the excuse they had injuries they had injuries in 2012.

Furthermore with shurmur with a rookie Bradford coming off a major shoulder surgery, being a rookie and a 1-15 roster the year before and a not good roster of players they also were better than what they got from Mcdaniels. 

and cassle played fine. He was the one QB outside of Brady he’s had success with. So because he had success for one year with cassle meanwhile we ignore the sample size of 79 games without Brady where his passing game has ranked 24th and 19th in scoring? Ir ignore the fact Brady without mcdaniels since 2006 as DVOA of 1st, 1st and 4th. So that Tom Brady guy might be really good with or without mcdaniels kind of like Peyton Manning was still really good (besides his last year when he was done) the rest of his career without Adam Gase. 

where did i tout Brady or daboll or smith  in fact i got into an argument on here with Manu about smith/Titans having some flaws  I’ve always pointed out Brady and daboll’s flaws in the past. However it is clearly obvious that some on here rather give mcdaniels excuses for his flaws because he’s going to be the eagles coach meanwhile if he weren’t they be questioning another team for hiring him because of them. That to me is what’s funny about all this  

i don’t disagree with the rest of the your argument. In fact i support that part of it  

 

2 hours ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

I’d feel so much better about everything if John Dorsey was the GM and Howie was the numbers cruncher again.  

Dorsey doesn't have a great track record as a GM.  He probably incorrectly gets credit for players in KC. He didn't do great in Cleveland.  

7 minutes ago, wussbasket said:

I should have worded it better, but I think they should hire a high risk high reward coach. But what will most likely happen is they hire a yes man for Howie to have full control.

Howie has control, it's not like McDaniel can come in and demand personnel power. So no need to hire a "yes man."

And if he's successful and demands personnel control, well, nice knowing you, now that you've helped rebuild the team we're a prime destination for top HC candidates.

Reality is that any HC that comes in has to accept the management structure, in which an HC gets input but not control. Which is how it should be, HCs don't have the time or background to handle personnel decisions, and usually when they demand that control, it ends badly.

I think history shows we draft best when the HC has the least influence and the scouts and personnel guys dominate the draft board.

6 minutes ago, wussbasket said:

I should have worded it better, but I think they should hire a high risk high reward coach. But what will most likely happen is they hire a yes man for Howie to have full control.

That makes sense......................thanks

2 hours ago, jwill2420 said:

I think your getting wrapped up In position rather than production. Make no mistake Pitts is a RECEVIER who just happens to play the TE spot. In fact most call him a hybrid WR/TE but the point is we need receiving help right? What does it matter if it comes from the TE spot or WR spot? Pitts can give you those numbers. 
 

That said I’m not chasing him at 6. I want Smith or Chase but if a trade down or those guys are gone I have no problem taking Pitts. 

What 1st round TE has ever been worth their pick?

1 minute ago, austinfan said:

Howie has control, it's not like McDaniel can come in and demand personnel power. So no need to hire a "yes man."

And if he's successful and demands personnel control, well, nice knowing you, now that you've helped rebuild the team we're a prime destination for top HC candidates.

Reality is that any HC that comes in has to accept the management structure, in which an HC gets input but not control. Which is how it should be, HCs don't have the time or background to handle personnel decisions, and usually when they demand that control, it ends badly.

Nah, send Howie packing.

26 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

 

Not a name I would've expected, but, I don't exactly dislike it either. I'd be okay with this.

Side note (and I realize I'm probably alone in this) I would trade every single player possible from this roster. Completely blow it up. Ertz, Goedert, Graham, Lane, whomever. Not confident in Howie, but this teams needs a total overhaul.

I tend to value QBR more than Rating, b/c rating tends to double count some stats and gives an edge to high completion % without adjusting for Y/A. QBR is flawed as well, DVOA is probably better but now harder to access.

Don't think there's any right way to measure success for an OC, personnel matter so much, and only so much is in the control of the OC.

3 minutes ago, Wentz_Era said:

What 1st round TE has ever been worth their pick?

Jeremy Shockey is the only one I could think of off the top of my head. Even he might have been worth it

1 minute ago, Wentz_Era said:

What 1st round TE has ever been worth their pick?

Tony Gonzalez. Shockey. Greg Olsen (drafted late in the first). Dallas Clark (also late 1st). Vernon Davis (i actually wouldn’t put him here. I thought he underwhelmed for what people thought he’d be). The real question is taking a tight in the top 15. There’s really not Many who have had success. 

23 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

He could accept the job and still not be a lock. 

He could coach here for a year and not be a lock

3 minutes ago, greend said:

Nah, send Howie packing.

Howie rebuilt this team twice, McDaniels blew up Denver, Dorsey screwed up in both KC and Cleveland.

You can do a lot worse than Howie, but doing better is hard, because the top GMs don't move, only their assistants and retreads, and then you have the same situation you have hiring a HC, is the assistant that good or just riding the coattails of his boss.

Howie fixed the dream team, he can fix this mess as well. Note he made the same moves they made in NO with about the same results. Gambled on keeping the window open and lost. We'll see which team can turn it around faster.

From an extremely well plugged-in Patriots reporter.

5 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Tony Gonzalez. Shockey. Greg Olsen (drafted late in the first). Dallas Clark (also late 1st). Vernon Davis (i actually wouldn’t put him here. I thought he underwhelmed for what people thought he’d be). The real question is taking a tight in the top 15. There’s really not Many who have had success. 

I forgot about Tony Gonzalez was a first-rounder. Greg Olsen was always injured so I wouldn't think that he was actually work that first round pick. Vernon Davis was a major disappointment I listed Shockey above. Not many usually you get good tight ends in the second round up. Even the latest last few years the Titan group in selected in the first round had been okay but I wouldn't say top first round pick Worthy.

Dallas Clark might have been listed as a tight end and occasionally played the tight end position but he was a slot wide receiver. I know that's what you're comparing this guy to.

2 minutes ago, DeathByEagle said:

I forgot about Tony Gonzalez was a first-rounder. Greg Olsen was always injured so I wouldn't think that he was actually work that first round pick. Vernon Davis was a major disappointment I listed Shockey above. Not many usually you get good tight ends in the second round up. Even the latest last few years the Titan group in selected in the first round had been okay but I wouldn't say top first round pick Worthy.

Dallas Clark might have been listed as a tight end and occasionally played the tight end position but he was a slot wide receiver. I know that's what you're comparing this guy to.

Greg Olsen has a 14 year career, and only the last 4 years has he really missed significant time. I would gladly take 10 years of good production from your TE with a 1st round pick. 

1 minute ago, TorontoEagle said:

Greg Olsen has a 14 year career, and only the last 4 years has he really missed significant time. I would gladly take 10 years of good production from your TE with a 1st round pick. 

Don't forget he was only on team that drafted him for a few years till they traded him. That's what you really have to go by his was he worth the first-rounder to the team that drafted him.

7 minutes ago, Swoop said:

Not a name I would've expected, but, I don't exactly dislike it either. I'd be okay with this.

Side note (and I realize I'm probably alone in this) I would trade every single player possible from this roster. Completely blow it up. Ertz, Goedert, Graham, Lane, whomever. Not confident in Howie, but this teams needs a total overhaul.

Goedert should be traded IMO.  I've posted several times about him, his value to the team vs. his value in a trade. 

-Due for HUGE extension soon.  Upwards of $60 million.  Eagles don't have luxury of paying top dollar for TE.

- Injury in every season so far

-Better stats by age 26 than Hayden Hurst.  Hurst was traded along with a 4th to the Falcons for a 2nd and 5th.

-Trade DG and a 5th for a 2nd and 4th (better prospect that HH results in better return)

-Trade Ertz for a 4th.

-Trade down in the 1st round, pick up an extra 2nd.

-You now have turned pick 6, DG and Ertz into:

 14, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 4th

-Draft Kyle Pitts around pick 14 or so.  I LOVE Kyle Pitts as a weapon, not just a TE.  If you don't want TE in the first (I understand the argument) then you draft PSU's Pat Freiermuth or OSU's Jeremy Ruckert in the 2nd/3rd.

 

 

27 minutes ago, DeathByEagle said:

I'm going to be honest they're not hiring anyone until they go through every interview they possibly can. There is no rush right now since we're one of the last two teams. Yeah McDaniels might be the FrontRunner right now but I don't think they're trying to make that decision quick for they would have hired him the other day.

I don't see this all playing out until the Super Bowl

and, no matter what else you may think about Jeffrey, I do think he's a pretty smart guy.  He's got to be well aware of all the baggage McD brings with him - no matter how great a football mind he might be, can you imagine if we went from Doug back to Chipper level disfunction, how eagles fans would react?

8 minutes ago, DeathByEagle said:

I forgot about Tony Gonzalez was a first-rounder. Greg Olsen was always injured so I wouldn't think that he was actually work that first round pick. Vernon Davis was a major disappointment I listed Shockey above. Not many usually you get good tight ends in the second round up. Even the latest last few years the Titan group in selected in the first round had been okay but I wouldn't say top first round pick Worthy.

Dallas Clark might have been listed as a tight end and occasionally played the tight end position but he was a slot wide receiver. I know that's what you're comparing this guy to.

Greg Olsen’s 5 year window in his prime was more productive then Zach ertz’s recent 5 year window. Had 3 pro bowl years. He had 3 seasons of over 1000 yards. Meanwhile during that stretch he had 843, 816, 1008, 1104 and 1073 yards. Has 5,6,6,7 and 3 touchdowns over that time.

If you want to use the fact it wasn’t with his original team that drafted him that i can agree so it didn’t help the bears. In order for ertz to catch Olsen he’d need 2600 more yards and 34 more tds and I’d say ertz was a good second round pick. He’s in his 14th nfl season. 

however the discussion wasn’t strictly first round tight ends with your original team. It was how many first round tight ends actually wind up being as productive from where they are drafted

5 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

Greg Olsen has a 14 year career, and only the last 4 years has he really missed significant time. I would gladly take 10 years of good production from your TE with a 1st round pick. 

while yeah, you'd love that production, with our current roster composition I think any TE would be considered a luxury we can't afford.

4 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Greg Olsen’s 5 year window in his prime was more productive then Zach ertz’s recent 5 year window. Had 3 pro bowl years. He had 3 seasons of over 1000 yards. Meanwhile during that stretch he had 843, 816, 1008, 1104 and 1073 yards. Has 5,6,6,7 and 3 touchdowns over that time. If you want to use the fact it wasn’t with his original team that drafted him that i can agree so it didn’t help the bears. In order for ertz to catch Olsen he’d need 2600 more yards and 34 more tds and I’d say ertz was a good second round pick. He’s in his 14th nfl season. 

That five-year window was when he was with the Panthers who only traded a third-round pick for him. When he was with the Bears he was average at best may be below average. Only had around five six hundred yards a season. To me that's the team that took the risk on a first-round pick for him. Only landed a third-rounder back. He might have had a great career but it wasn't by the team that drafted him in the first round

So the question was was he worth the first-round selection? That would be a question for the Bears which would turn out to be no he was not.

5 minutes ago, bpac55 said:

Goedert should be traded IMO.  I've posted several times about him, his value to the team vs. his value in a trade. 

-Due for HUGE extension soon.  Upwards of $60 million.  Eagles don't have luxury of paying top dollar for TE.

- Injury in every season so far

-Better stats by age 26 than Hayden Hurst.  Hurst was traded along with a 4th to the Falcons for a 2nd and 5th.

-Trade DG and a 5th for a 2nd and 4th (better prospect that HH results in better return)

-Trade Ertz for a 4th.

-Trade down in the 1st round, pick up an extra 2nd.

-You now have turned pick 6, DG and Ertz into:

 14, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 4th

-Draft Kyle Pitts around pick 14 or so.  I LOVE Kyle Pitts as a weapon, not just a TE.  If you don't want TE in the first (I understand the argument) then you draft PSU's Pat Freiermuth or OSU's Jeremy Ruckert in the 2nd/3rd.

 

 

Agree, 100%

24 minutes ago, austinfan said:

Howie has control, it's not like McDaniel can come in and demand personnel power. So no need to hire a "yes man."

And if he's successful and demands personnel control, well, nice knowing you, now that you've helped rebuild the team we're a prime destination for top HC candidates.

Reality is that any HC that comes in has to accept the management structure, in which an HC gets input but not control. Which is how it should be, HCs don't have the time or background to handle personnel decisions, and usually when they demand that control, it ends badly.

I think history shows we draft best when the HC has the least influence and the scouts and personnel guys dominate the draft board.

... and Howie is on a coffee break.

Just now, DeathByEagle said:

That five-year window was when he was with the Panthers who only traded a third-round pick for him. When he was with the Bears he was average at best may be below average. Only had around five six hundred yards a season. To me that's the team that took the risk on a first-round pick for him. Only landed a third-rounder back. He might have had a great career but it wasn't by the team that drafted him in the first round

Yeah but I don’t think the exercise was strictly to the team that drafted them. It was first round tight ends that wound up being worthy of where they were selected. If we were just going based off the first team they went to then yes I would agree with you.  However to say Greg Olsen for his entire career was not worthy of where he went I would say that’s not true.

As productive as he was for his career for 14 years I would say is a very good first round pick. Now wasn’t a good pick for the Bears cause they traded him but for Greg Olsen the talent going 31 in a draft and playing 14 years and putting the numbers he did is really good