He definitely was a problem for us

Dear God that would have SUCKED!!!!!!!

Just now, eagle45 said:

At the end of the day (err route)...all that matters is separation.  4.6 and wide open beats 4.3 and covered.  Being surrounded by grass beats specializing in low-probability contested catches.

BUT...that 4.3 is one of the ingredients in separation.  It just isn't the only one.  Quickness, advanced routes, pure linear 40 speed, footwork, agility all factor in.  We can debate the relative importance of each, but they all factor in.

But it is fairly challenging to create tons of separation when you are a prospect that has their speed questioned.  That's a red flag.

It's all about the ability to get open though.  If there were a magic number for THAT...then I would sort my WR rankings according to that alone.

I look for suddenness, the ability to set up guys with change of speed and footwork.  Also, beating the jam/press coverage. The Eagles loved Todd Pinkston because of his stopwatch speed, but the dude could hardly beat press because he was so weak.  Some fast guys don't know how to change speeds to fool defenders into taking bad angles.  Rice was one of the best WRs in terms of using change of speed to burn defenders, especially on short, intermediate routes which he turned into long gainers.

16 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

I told you guys that the Mailata hype was out of control and people were just desperate to fawn all over him.

Look how great Matt Pryor looks if you pretend he's Mailata.  

68/69... big and tall...  but Pryor was SLOW to come off Young and recognize the safety.  And he didnt get enough...  getting enough rides him past the QB and keeps contact so he cant run around and make a play from behind.  All things considered though, Pryor wasnt nearly as bad as I feared. Same with Toth.  They were bad, but not Winston Justice veresus Osi bad.

3 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

I defend Schwartz against a lot of the nonsense posted in here about him, but I have no interest in promoting the cheap knockoff version. 

Schwartz-Lite. 1/2 of the calories of the regular Schwartz.

So far you're right about this one

 

Just now, CaliEagle said:

I look for suddenness, the ability to set up guys with change of speed and footwork.  Also, beating the jam/press coverage. The Eagles loved Todd Pinkston because of his stopwatch speed, but the dude could hardly beat press because he was so weak.  Some fast guys don't know how to change speeds to fool defenders into taking bad angles.  Rice was one of the best WRs in terms of using change of speed to burn defenders, especially on short, intermediate routes which he turned into long gainers.

IIRC, Pinky was a 6'2" low 4.4 guy, which were probably even better numbers in his heyday than they are now.  His absurdly frail frame and lack of any strength were an issue...I actually think he'd be a lot better in this version of the NFL.  It's a lot harder to rough up a WR now in the way DB's once did to Pinky.  That may clear up some of his alligator arms and might make him a lot more aggressive downfield.  I think he'd be more productive now.

That doesn't clear up the problem of press coverage...the NFL hasn't found a way to eliminate that from the video game style of play they have encouraged....yet.

Care to take this one back?

 

Just now, eagle45 said:

IIRC, Pinky was a 6'2" low 4.4 guy, which were probably even better numbers in his heyday than they are now.  His absurdly frail frame and lack of any strength were an issue...I actually think he'd be a lot better in this version of the NFL.  It's a lot harder to rough up a WR now in the way DB's once did to Pinky.  That may clear up some of his alligator arms and might make him a lot more aggressive downfield.  I think he'd be more productive now.

That doesn't clear up the problem of press coverage...the NFL hasn't found a way to eliminate that from the video game style of play they have encouraged....yet.

I don't know. I see a little of Pinkston in Hightower. Hightower doesn't seem to trust himself in terms of being physical at the NFL level. He really needs to get in a NFL weight room and see if he can add some strength. Maybe that would help him mentally in terms of being more physical.

18 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Now, with that out of the way...I don't think anyone is realizing or acknowledging just how BAD Hurts is as a passer.  While he may not have played a full season, his ratio of passing yards to rushing yards was historically bad...worse than any of the raw run dominant QB's in their early NFL action in recent history.  The only QB worse...Tim Tebow.

Any time the offense had to pass...be it 3rd and long, 4th down, or comeback situations...he wasn't just ineffective; he looked like he was playing out of position.  He could use his legs to keep the offense moving forward and to make some broken throws on the run, but the designed passing was abysmal.  

IMO, he profiles as a really nice backup because of his ability to come in and disrupt a game against a defense that was not game planning for his scampering.  But even as a pure passer, he's below average for a backup and may remain so.

I think watching Sudfeld should have convinced anyone just how bad the talent that both Wentz and Hurts had to work with this season, and the real problem was the OL, not the QBs, the second problem was Ertz going AWOL and DeSean not lasting long enough to buy some time for the young WRs. Ertz was Wentz's security blanket, without him he didn't have a go to WR except for Fulghams 5 game run, but Fulgham was playing over his head and came down to earth (it wasn't due to Jeffrey, it was due to bad routes and dropped passes).

Mialata was our highest ranked lineman [but in 10 starts, 3 false starts, 1 hold, 6.5 sacks], love Kelce, but he's near the end (which may be why he'll retire), Seumalo I think was never 100%. Herbig came on but is a work in progress, Driscoll showed promise but Pryor was awful, Peters had two games in him, and Brown was actually worse than Pryor. They actually started Opeta for a couple games. On the one hand, some young OL got PT and hold promise for next season, on the other it made for a horrid situation for the QBs.

I'm not sure what kind of season Jefferson would have had here, like we saw with Fulgham, as soon as he put a couple good games together, he'd have faced a safety over the top and man press on a regular basis. Reagor was raw, got injured, no mini-camps, showed he can get separation but needs a lot of work. Same with Fulgham who flashed then crashed. The rest, Ward is a reliable slot WR but no more, Watkins and Hightower need a lot of work. JJAW may have a future as a H-back. But this group wasn't ready for prime time.

Wentz will start next year, the OL will be much better, the WRs should be better even before they draft another one, add a power back and I think you'll see a different Wentz, especially if they get a real QB coach to work on his mechanics. It's not like his arm fell off. He needs decent blocking b/c his biggest strength is his size and arm, he can make every throw in the book, but many of those throws require time and WRs to sell routes. Big Ben in his 5th season, 80.1 rating, 45.7 QBR. 17 TD to 15 Int. And he had Santanio Holmes, Hines Ward and Heath Miller at TE. So it's not unprecedented for a talented QB to have an off season then bounce back big. Especially when it's due to a clusterf---.

Hurts needs a year on the bench, to learn how to read NFL defenses and smooth out his throwing motion. As a backup QB on a solid offense, he can steal you a few games if needed, but he's a year or two from being ready to start. People who want to trade Wentz and start Hurts are crazy. As far as drafting a QB? Go check the odds of landing someone as good as Wentz at #6 - they're actually pretty slim, most top ten picks at QB don't end up as solid starters.

 

1 hour ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

Hahahaha.  Oh I don’t think so.  Too bad we can’t resurrect the old board.  But a lot of people were resigned to be ok with the pick and looked for multiple ways to justify the thought process behind it.  I and few others remained steadfast against the pick.   

It’s true.  There were some that tried to rationalize it right away.  That’s fine.  Many people want to look on the bright side.  I saw this for what it was immediately.

https://www.eaglesmessageboard.com/topic/33-emb-blog-once-again-politics-to-cvon/page/500/?tab=comments#comment-30450

Also on Reagor / Jefferson.  Wasn’t confused on this either.

https://www.eaglesmessageboard.com/topic/33-emb-blog-once-again-politics-to-cvon/page/183/?tab=comments#comment-11089

 

 

2 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

Care to take this one back?

 

Oh Hell yes. 🤣🤣🤣

Thats a swing and a miss. But, I’ll bet that Tyrod Taylor would love for the Chargers training staff to give him an injection that misses it mark. 

Just now, CaliEagle said:

I don't know. I see a little of Pinkston in Hightower. Hightower doesn't seem to trust himself in terms of being physical at the NFL level. He really needs to get in a NFL weight room and see if he can add some strength. Maybe that would help him mentally in terms of being more physical.

There is a LOT of Pinkston in Hightower (for better and for worse).  

Hightower is a rookie (5th rounder at that)...so his sins are forgivable for now.  The biggest thing Pinky had on Hightower is that he knew how to track a deep rainbow.  Hightower seemed to have a little Agholor between the ears with how utterly lost he looked at times.  

But on a go route?  Getting downfield?  Hightower definitely showed the potential to be disruptive.  

Only took us pick 53 lol

Also Eason didn't go until pick 122 in the 4th

Just now, eagle45 said:

There is a LOT of Pinkston in Hightower (for better and for worse).  

Hightower is a rookie (5th rounder at that)...so his sins are forgivable for now.  The biggest thing Pinky had on Hightower is that he knew how to track a deep rainbow.  Hightower seemed to have a little Agholor between the ears with how utterly lost he looked at times.  

But on a go route?  Getting downfield?  Hightower definitely showed the potential to be disruptive.  

I agree. I think they have to try to develop these guys.  Watkins' issue seems like it's his hands. He drops quite a few passes in practice and he dropped an easy screen on Sunday.  Hightower seems to know how to get separation from CBs. He just has to develop the tenacity to attack the ball instead of waiting for it to come to him.

6 minutes ago, CaliEagle said:

I agree. I think they have to try to develop these guys.  Watkins' issue seems like it's his hands. He drops quite a few passes in practice and he dropped an easy screen on Sunday.  Hightower seems to know how to get separation from CBs. He just has to develop the tenacity to attack the ball instead of waiting for it to come to him.

With the little we've seen from the rookie WRs (including Reagor), Watkins actually seems like the guy that is the burner with the best speed.  He seems to have some quicks and agility to him as well.  Those hands are the issue, like you said.  With the right coaching, some progress, and a lot of luck, he might profile as a fairly complete WR one day who can excel with the most diverse route tree.

Hightower does seem to glide downfield with those strides and eat up cushion...not sure if I'm seeing much lateral quickness from him though.  Press is a problem.

And Reagor...well, he didn't have any major flaws exposed this year, aside from his inability to stay healthy.  His deep speed was very disappointing, he never looked particularly explosive, but he's got very good strength and has some quickness.

 

Call me crazy, and I never would have seen it this way after the draft...but I think the fits for these guys may be Watkins X, Hightower Z, Reagor slot.

24 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Well, they do... but they do because they screwed up the cap so bad that it is nearly irreparable

I get tha.  but they made it like it was required to do it in the second round cause otherwise they couldn’t find and develop a backup in the next couple rounds cause they failed with thorson. And at that time they had Sudfeld coming back and i believe tendered him with a 2nd round tender (could be wrong on that). So they really could’ve waited if they were drafting solely for a developmental back up. I think my other argument was without offseason activities whatever rookie you took after round one was likely not prepared to start day one as your main backup. 

2 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

With the little we've seen from the rookie WRs (including Reagor), Watkins actually seems like the guy that is the burner with the best speed.  He seems to have some quicks and agility to him as well.  Those hands are the issue, like you said.  With the right coaching, some progress, and a lot of luck, he might profile as a fairly complete WR one day who can excel with the most diverse route tree.

Hightower does seem to glide downfield with those strides and eat up cushion...not sure if I'm seeing much lateral quickness from him though.  Press is a problem.

And Reagor...well, he didn't have any major flaws exposed this year, aside from his inability to stay healthy.  His deep speed was very disappointing, he never looked particular explosive, but he's got very good strength and has some quickness.

 

Call me crazy, and I never would have seen it this way after the draft...but I think the fits for these guys may be Watkins X, Hightower Z, Reagor slot.

Reagor looks like he runs the same speed and same gear. There's not much suddenness. He's fast, but he doesn't separate as well as he could.  He has to learn how to use his speed and change his speed, set up defenders.  Also, his hands are like Watkins. He has to work on the drops.

Regrets?

14 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

Only took us pick 53 lol

Also Eason didn't go until pick 122 in the 4th

There were a ton of rumors prior to the draft about Eason moving up fast. Now looks like just rumors but there were some mocks who had him late first and early second 

Regrets?

 

4 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I get tha.  but they made it like it was required to do it in the second round cause otherwise they couldn’t find and develop a backup in the next couple rounds cause they failed with thorson. And at that time they had Sudfeld coming back and i believe tendered him with a 2nd round tender (could be wrong on that). So they really could’ve waited if they were drafting solely for a developmental back up. I think my other argument was without offseason activities whatever rookie you took after round one was likely not prepared to start day one as your main backup. 

I don't deny that. They've built this dumpster fire for a while.  It didn't happen over night and it will not be fixed overnight.

Backup QB... they saw something in Sudfeld in 2017, and he hasn't delivered on that promise.  And frankly, that might be the biggest issue.  He's a microcosm of the entire roster.  I honestly think that he might have been better when he came here than he is now.  How many players can you say that about over the course of the last 3 years?

 

Front office can't find guys... coaching staff can't develop them.    Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?   Easy answer... who cares?  Eat the eggs for breakfast, chicken for dinner and get a whole new set in for next year.

Someone would have been able to gloat like crazy at the end of the season

 

8 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

Regrets?

Not yet

Another person would have been able to gloat

 

12 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

With the little we've seen from the rookie WRs (including Reagor), Watkins actually seems like the guy that is the burner with the best speed.  He seems to have some quicks and agility to him as well.  Those hands are the issue, like you said.  With the right coaching, some progress, and a lot of luck, he might profile as a fairly complete WR one day who can excel with the most diverse route tree.

Hightower does seem to glide downfield with those strides and eat up cushion...not sure if I'm seeing much lateral quickness from him though.  Press is a problem.

And Reagor...well, he didn't have any major flaws exposed this year, aside from his inability to stay healthy.  His deep speed was very disappointing, he never looked particularly explosive, but he's got very good strength and has some quickness.

 

Call me crazy, and I never would have seen it this way after the draft...but I think the fits for these guys may be Watkins X, Hightower Z, Reagor slot.

For the number of opportunities he's been given, Watkins looked the best for that brief shining moment. 

I'd like to see Watkins work at PR for next year.  Let Reagor work at running better routes and not giving up on plays.  And hopefully the new coach can help Fulgham, Hightower and the new draft pick get Ward off the field.  Nothing against Ward.... but he's got no juice.