Just now, austinfan said:

There a difference between trying to figure out how decisions are made and just being a whining fan.

I rely on "revealed preference," what people say is usually false, what they do is more informative.

I figure if Lurie has so much at stake, and trusts Howie with his billion dollar asset, the primary fault is probably elswhere.

Now there are times when people are irrational, like a former President insisting an election was stolen well past the point at which that strategy was optimized (raising $250+M from his followers), endangering his financial empire and his political influence - in that case revealed preference suggests he's crazy, because his actions went far past the point where they became counterproductive.

I don't think Lurie is irrational, he may have been overly optimistic the last couple years, but that's a matter of adjusting expectations.

Oh... now I'm whiny?  And you have to bring politics into this because you are out of defense.   Nice.

 

He's some straight talk for you.  Howie's job is to make the final decision, when the person who makes the final decision screws up, he takes responsibility for HIS decision, he doesn't hide behind his underlings.   Leaders stand up for the decisions they make and take the bullet when their decision fails.  Where does the buck stop with the Eagles?   It just gets passed to the latest scapegoat. 

 

As you pointed out, Lurie has a waiting list for people waiting for tickets.  What's he risking?  Or what does he have to fear about the risk?   Even the worst run franchise in the NFL is profitable.  It's the golden goose.   He's not risking anything with his mismanagement.   And if he really screws it up completely... he can sell the team and make a mighty profit.  

$1.1billion for the Bills in 2014.
$1B for the Browns in 2012.
$1.1B for Dolphins in 2008.

Lowest price was $770M for the Jags and $700M for the Rams (back when they were in St. Louis).

The most recent was the Panthers in 2018 for $2.3B.    He's got nothing to worry about monetarily.   

34 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

My mother, who was great at reading to us, read us The Hobbit when I was about eight or nine.  Even though my sister and I read all the time, she read to us until we ere out of elementary school, always above our reading level.  She followed The Hobbit with the Lord of the Rings.  She also read us The Microbe Hunters, The Yearling and a whole host of other books.  Mom gave me The Jungles Books about he time she was reading us The Hobbit.   I also read those with my kids.  She turned me onto Tom Swift in second grade because she read his series as a kid.  

Mom also loved poetry and would recite poems to us all the time.  Is it any wonder I have enjoyed Amanda Gorman’s time in the spotlight so much.  As part of my speech minor, I took Reader’s Theatre in college, which taught how to read to an audience.   Recitation is an art.  Some of these kids probably don’t recall that Robert Frost was the Poet Laureate to deliver at Kennedy’s inauguration and would end his stump speech with a line from Frost.  

2 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

The most recent was the Panthers in 2018 for $2.3B.    He's got nothing to worry about monetarily.   

Maybe he does.  His team is $60 million over the cap.  His wealth comes from General Cinemas (well, Hartcourt) and producing TV, movies and documentaries (from which he has two Oscars). His daughter is a budding filmmaker.  Not sure what his son does but I am sure Jeff’s money didn’t hurt him going to Harvard.  So income and worth of the Eagles is probably more important to him in a post Covid world. I am not saying he is broke but I am sure he is a lot less liquid and probably a little poorer than he was a year ago.

Look, you and I would like to see Howie in the rear view.  The chance you and Afan agree on this is unlikely.  But the realism is we are stuck with Howie for now.  I imagine though that Howie is skating on thin ice.

If Lurie screws it up royally, it can cost him hundreds of millions of dollars, since this is his main asset (i.e., if he wants money for anything else, he probably needs to borrow against the value of the Eagles) he has a strong incentive not to screw it up - certainly stronger than any loyalty he might feel toward Howie.

It is not irrational to have erroneous expectations, it is irrational not to correct those expectations as more information becomes available.  The fact that Lowie have committed to rebuilding says they've adjusted their expectations.

For most people, their actions and incentives explain their behavior better than their statements (or unknown sources). I brought up a specific example of actions that were clearly irrational to show what irrational looks like, when you have overwhelming evidence that your course of action may prove disastrous and you persist, that's irrational. However, it was not irrational to think that Wentz could rebound behind a solid OL with 3 Pro bowlers and a 1st rd pick at LT, proven WRs, a top young RB, etc. Overly optimistic, yes, but not crazy. Businessmen are often overly optimistic, if they let fear paralyze them, they'd never invest in anything, it takes experience to know when to double up or fold your cards.

1 hour ago, LeanMeanGM said:

lol what a clown BLG is. This is the problem, everyone is just inferring to make the puzzle fit in their own head and playing it off as fact.

  This is the worst clickbait I've seen yet.  Yeah, I'm sure JDF would be devastated to be reunited with the QB that he personally developed into an MVP in 2017 because he's "tough to coach."  Then he receives his promotion to OC under Zimmer and gets completely embarrassed and has his reputation pretty tarnished by getting fired mid-season.  

Unless Flip is some weak-minded bish of a leader (which by all reports he is definitely not), I would honestly have to imagine he would be thrilled to get the opportunity to work with Wentz again.  

3 minutes ago, hputenis said:

His portrayal of God in Bruce Almighty made a crappy movie watchable.  I love documentaries voiced by him like The Story of God.

The longer this goes on the more it feels like the Josh McDaniels situation. Reports coming out he was the guy, then days went by and he didn’t get hired, it started to feel like it wasn’t gonna be the case.

If Wentz isn’t dealt by Wed or Thurs, starting to get the feeling this thing is gonna drag out for a while.

Nothing surprising here.

 

3 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

His portrayal of God in Bruce Almighty made a crappy movie watchable.  I love documentaries voiced by him like The Story of God.

I can't really think of a movie off the top of my head that he doesn't make watchable.  He's the man.  

8 minutes ago, hputenis said:

  This is the worst clickbait I've seen yet.  Yeah, I'm sure JDF would be devastated to be reunited with the QB that he personally developed into an MVP in 2017 because he's "tough to coach."  Then he receives his promotion to OC under Zimmer and gets completely embarrassed and has his reputation pretty tarnished by getting fired mid-season.  

Unless Flip is some weak-minded bish of a leader (which by all reports he is definitely not), I would honestly have to imagine he would be thrilled to get the opportunity to work with Wentz again.  

But his sense is telling him this all about Wentz and not the logical explanation that he’s the QB coach which around the league also usually takes the title of passing game coordinator also. He’s talked to people! 

4 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

But his sense is telling him this all about Wentz and not the logical explanation that he’s the QB coach which around the league also usually takes the title of passing game coordinator also. He’s talked to people! 

Not to mention what this would do for Flip's career if he were to once again be the QB coach that fixes/develops Wentz for the 2nd time.  Common sense physically cancels out this article.  

8 minutes ago, schuy7 said:

Nothing surprising here.

 

Nope, I suspected all along the leaks were coming from the Eagles, to try and conjure up and create their own trade environment. Which was all just fake and fiction. Kinda like westview in wandavision. Howie playing the part of Wanda.  

15 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

Maybe he does.  His team is $60 million over the cap.  His wealth comes from General Cinemas (well, Hartcourt) and producing TV, movies and documentaries (from which he has two Oscars). His daughter is a budding filmmaker.  Not sure what his son does but I am sure Jeff’s money didn’t hurt him going to Harvard.  So income and worth of the Eagles is probably more important to him in a post Covid world. I am not saying he is broke but I am sure he is a lot less liquid and probably a little poorer than he was a year ago.

Look, you and I would like to see Howie in the rear view.  The chance you and Afan agree on this is unlikely.  But the realism is we are stuck with Howie for now.  I imagine though that Howie is skating on thin ice.

If he sells the Eagles, he'll get back more than the $2.3B that the Panthers went for.   He bought the team for under $200M in 1994.  That's a pretty darn good ROI just from the football team.   

 

I also think that Jeff is far more involved in the decision making than he would want any one to really know and protects Howie, because Howie let's him play fantasy football with a real team.   I think Lurie wants to be involved in the day to day operations of the team, and Howie offers him that opportunity, where a 'real football GM' likely wouldn't allow him that kind of leverage.  

Howie is only the problem that he is, because Lurie has allowed him to become what he is.   Which is a conniving little weasel who will always have someone around to take the fall when he (or Lurie) screws up.   

 

I'd have had a lot more respect if in that stupid PC that Lurie gave when Doug was fired... had he taken some of the bullet himself.   "I thought that there was a window for us to push for another Super Bowl, so we moved in a direction towards a shorter term view.  And we pushed our chips in to the middle of the table and we came out a loser.  We went for it and got burned, and now we need to start over which means a hard look at every aspect of our process from top to bottom."    But, rather than owning any mistakes, Jeff went with the 'everything is fine, we are better than our record' direction.   It was a bad look.  It was clear he was blowing a lot of smoke, and that never sits well with me.  And that is my biggest issue with it.  Lack of any accountability from the parties involved in the decision making process that has led to this situation.  The situation where they are $60M over the cap, they have extremely limited talent on the roster under even the age of 28, let alone 25... and the franchise QB that they were supposed to be building around has become yet another scapegoat in the organization for all that is wrong with it.  And no comments about how they've screwed up that situation, such that they are on the verge of taking a $34M dead cap hit to trade away the franchise QB that they traded away 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick to acquire in 2016... and in the first year that his extension kicks in.     If their process had been nearly 10% as good as what Jeff tried to make it out to be, the Eagles wouldn't be in this hole.  But they are, and the people left behind to fix it are blind to their part in creating it (or at least publicly in terms of ownership of it).  

 

But, don't try to feed more horse manure and tell me its a steak.   Lurie insulted the intelligence of all the fans of this team with that ridiculousness... and doubled down on it with his stupid soapbox introduction of Sirianni, where both he and the GM failed to field any questions, even though they should have.

Allbright adds that the 49ers and Texans have called as well. Maybe a Watson trade is possible. 😜

Just now, schuy7 said:

Allbright adds that the 49ers and Texans have called as well. Maybe a Watson trade is possible. 😜

Honestly, a Wentz trade makes sense for the 49ers since they can just flip Jimmy G to another team (Patriots).

The worst part about this entire thing is we have to endure this BS every Fing day until he is traded or until the season starts if he isn't traded. Idk if I have ever hated this team as much as I do right now.

As for lurie caring about his investment, if he cared so much about it Howie would not have a job right now. One more F up from Howie and this fanbase is going to turn all the way. Yeah they're still gonna fill the stadium (at least for a good portion of the season), we're masochists, but i guarantee merch sales will be down. Maybe even viewership if it's a bad enough move. If he really cared about the team over his BFF, Howie would not be the GM.

I can't wait for him to be gone and players can speak out openly without fear of reprisal, that's why every Howie report is off unnamed sources. The guy is trading away franchise QB, speak out against him and that player is going too.

Just now, RLC said:

Honestly, a Wentz trade makes sense for the 49ers since they can just flip Jimmy G to another team (Patriots).

It does. Shanahan's offense is extremely QB friendly too. It could help reset Wentz.

4 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I also think that Jeff is far more involved in the decision making than he would want any one to really know and protects Howie, because Howie let's him play fantasy football with a real team.   I think Lurie wants to be involved in the day to day operations of the team, and Howie offers him that opportunity, where a 'real football GM' likely wouldn't allow him that kind of leverage.  

I think this sums up the entire situation right here.  

15 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I also think that Jeff is far more involved in the decision making than he would want any one to really know and protects Howie, because Howie let's him play fantasy football with a real team.   I think Lurie wants to be involved in the day to day operations of the team, and Howie offers him that opportunity, where a 'real football GM' likely wouldn't allow him that kind of leverage. 

What world do you live in, one where owners of companies don't call the shots?

There are only 32 jobs, and the owner chooses the "real football GM" in everyone of those jobs, and that GM better keep the owner in the loop.

5 minutes ago, austinfan said:

What world do you live in, one where owners of companies don't call the shots?

This is why you have CEOs and board of directors. 

The CEO needs to be accountable to someone, but the CEO makes the decisions. 

They don't have to trade Wentz, it's not like Wentz has options:

1) sit out, and lose $30M and give Howie a way out of the contract

2) come in and pout, and ruin your reputation further around the league

So if Wentz isn't traded, he'll be highly motivated to win the job and play well, because another bad season and the Eagles will just bury him as the 3rd QB until the dead money is reduced. And once he's released, he'll have to compete for a starting job elsewhere in 2022 or 2023 with no guarantees and limited money (29-30 year old QBs who haven't done much for a couple years have limited markets).

Since they don't gain cap room in 2021 either way, there's no urgency for them to conduct a fire sale. Even in 2022, the gain isn't enough to force their hand.

 

We still don't know if they've even made a decision, Howie may be testing the waters to see if someone would make an "offer he can't refuse." A 1st and 2nd might entice him, because he'd have more options going into the next two drafts, a 1st in return for the Eagles 2nd rd pick, meh. Nor are they going to worry about a QB controversy in a rebuilding season.

20 minutes ago, schuy7 said:

It does. Shanahan's offense is extremely QB friendly too. It could help reset Wentz.

Nice avatar.

4 minutes ago, austinfan said:

What world do you live in, one where owners of companies don't call the shots?

There are only 32 jobs, and the owner chooses the "real football GM" in everyone of those jobs, and that GM better keep the owner in the loop.

What world do you live in where the owner of the company sticks his nose into a realm of the business that he's not qualified to understand?   You want the CEO of the hospital sticking his fingers into surgery, or prescribing drugs for people? 

There is being in the loop, and then there is meddling.   Big difference.  And I think that Lurie is far more Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones than you want to believe. 

 

But, I'm finished with having these conversations with you.  Lurie and Howie can do no wrong in your view.  Everything they do is perfect.  The gigantic hole this organization is in is the work of everyone around them and under them... they bear no responsibility for it.

6 minutes ago, austinfan said:

If Lurie screws it up royally, it can cost him hundreds of millions of dollars, since this is his main asset (i.e., if he wants money for anything else, he probably needs to borrow against the value of the Eagles) he has a strong incentive not to screw it up - certainly stronger than any loyalty he might feel toward Howie.

It is not irrational to have erroneous expectations, it is irrational not to correct those expectations as more information becomes available.  The fact that Lowie have committed to rebuilding says they've adjusted their expectations.

For most people, their actions and incentives explain their behavior better than their statements (or unknown sources). I brought up a specific example of actions that were clearly irrational to show what irrational looks like, when you have overwhelming evidence that your course of action may prove disastrous and you persist, that's irrational. However, it was not irrational to think that Wentz could rebound behind a solid OL with 3 Pro bowlers and a 1st rd pick at LT, proven WRs, a top young RB, etc. Overly optimistic, yes, but not crazy. Businessmen are often overly optimistic, if they let fear paralyze them, they'd never invest in anything, it takes experience to know when to double up or fold your cards.

But it was irrational to think the team could win with one starting CB and no LBs.  The thinking he was smarter than others in picking players is also irrational.   So are some of his draft picks and signings.  If he really is a consensus guy and was deferring to Schwartz on defensive picks, then he kept repeating the same mistake over and over again.  That is irrational.  You think the only pick failure is JJAW.  It isn’t. Also shying away from the strength of a draft or thinking you can wait until later because of depth and not learning from Pumphrey (Miller, Hightower) is crazy.  Your DC runs a ton of Cover 1 yet you keep getting him 4.62 CBs or munchkin CBs is irrational.  I recall you and I agreeing a decade ago when they cut loose DJax that he was unlikely to hold up, so trading for him and then restructuring for more money was irrational.  Restructuring Jeffery, with a history of injury and discontent with a guaranteed year was irrational.  Going from cutting players when they aged to signing them to long extensions and signing aging players on the hope that they would last just a little longer.  Structuring bonus money into phantom years and thinking the piper would never need to be paid is irrational. 

Look, I think the sky isn’t falling.  They still have strength at OL and DL but that is aging and there are some real holes on the team.   The clearly need to be in a rebuild but we have to admit that Howie hasn’t performed well in retooling to date.  (Jones and Douglas at CB, Miller, Toohill and Avery at DE, Taylor, Bradley, Fort, Gerry at LB, Pryor, Herbig, Opeta, Wanogho on OL, JJAW and questions at WR).  Now, yes, lower round choices and UDFAs to be sure and I know the stats but need has exceeded the performance.  Using those same stats and it could take the Eagles decades to rebuild.  

7 minutes ago, RLC said:

This is why you have CEOs and board of directors. 

The CEO needs to be accountable to someone, but the CEO makes the decisions. 

Great point if this were in the real business world.  Here's Lurie's board of directors: