30 minutes ago, austinfan said:

The animosity toward Howie amuses me, people complain they fired Doug 3 years after winning a SB, but Howie rebuilt the Eagles after AR's 4-12 debacle, then again after Chip imploded.

Eagles not only won the SB, but went to the playoffs two more times, and if not for injuries, might have gotten to at least the Championship game.

Has he made mistakes? Sure, but that applies to every GM, in the end, you're judged by winning, and Howie twice helped the Eagles become a winning franchise in 8 years.

JJAW was his worst pick, but it's unlikely they would have taken Metcalf, 31 teams passed on him, probably due to medical concerns.

Fulgham's five games 10/4 to 11/1:  Wentz  99/173 57.2%  1151 yards, 6.6 Y/A  9-6, 21 sacks, Fulgham during that stretch produced at a similar level to Jefferson. 29 catches, 44 targets, 436 yards. So even if they draft Jefferson instead of Reagor (and thus never pick up Fulgham), it wouldn't have made much of a difference in Wentz's season. B/c the OL was imploding. So it was a mistake, but not the reason the offense cratered.

Hurts, if he becomes an average starting NFL QB, say Murray/Stafford/Ryan last season, that's a steal at #53. He's not the reason the season went south.

The big contracts, basically Jeffrey and DeSean, both mistakes.

The injury luck, that wasn't in his control other than DeSean. Brooks, Lane, top OL play to 35 or older, Wallace/Jerrigan/Malik/Darby, durable players who come here and fall apart. Hicks goes to Dallas and plays 16 games, same with Darby in Wash. Dillard? At some point it's ridiculous - but we'll see if it was due to Doug's preseason and practices or just bad luck the next couple years. Better injury luck and we might be talking back to back 10-6 seasons and a championship game appearance in 2018/2019, and better health on the OL last season and we're talking 8-8.

I don't know if it's the "football guy" fantasy (most fail, including all the ones Howie supposedly "pushed out"), or Howie looks like a dweeb or antisemitism (Jews can't play sports, they shouldn't run franchises). But if Howie hasn't earned the chance to rebuild this team, who has?

What has Howie done right from 2018 until today?

1 minute ago, austinfan said:

Indy doesn't want a less costly QB, they want to pay the least for the best available QB.

And is Watson really that much better than Wentz? Watson puts up great individual statistics, they didn't seem to translate to team scoring (402, 378, 384) last three seasons. Meanwhile, Indy going from Luck to Brisset to Rivers scores 433, 361, 454 - the only pro bowl skill players? Ebron in 2018, Doyle in 2019, both TEs. Houston? Miller pro bowl, Hopkins all pro in 2018, Hopkins all pro in 2019. Eagles those three years, 367, 385, 344, Ertz pro bowl 2018, 2019. I expect an elite QB to have a bigger impact on team scoring.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha

3 minutes ago, austinfan said:

Indy doesn't want a less costly QB, they want to pay the least for the best available QB.

And is Watson really that much better than Wentz? Watson puts up great individual statistics, they didn't seem to translate to team scoring (402, 378, 384) last three seasons. Meanwhile, Indy going from Luck to Brisset to Rivers scores 433, 361, 454 - the only pro bowl skill players? Ebron in 2018, Doyle in 2019, both TEs. Houston? Miller pro bowl, Hopkins all pro in 2018, Hopkins all pro in 2019. Eagles those three years, 367, 385, 344, Ertz pro bowl 2018, 2019. I expect an elite QB to have a bigger impact on team scoring.

Dude...

never change afan

12 minutes ago, austinfan said:

And is Watson really that much better than Wentz?.

Is the sun hot? Who can say?

1 hour ago, austinfan said:

It doesn't matter if Wentz is happy, he has no options.

Howie is not going to allow Wentz to force him to trade him to Indy (where reportedly he wants to go) at a discount, Howie's job is to do what's best for the Eagles, not Wentz. And it's not like Wentz is "an Eagle," like Dawkins or even Peters or Cox. Howie might do Kelce a favor because of his long history and identity with the franchise, but Wentz ain't paid those kind of dues.

Players want the money, don't care if that means a teammate gets cut, then talk about loyalty.

Howie's got to do what's best for the team.

Then he should F’ing resign. That’s what’s best. 

https://www.nj.com/eagles/2021/02/as-eagles-dawdle-on-carson-wentz-trade-bears-grow-impatient.html?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true

 

"They don’t want to give (Wentz) up for much less than (the Matthew Stafford haul),” another person with knowledge of the negotiations told NJ Advance Media on Tuesday. The Detroit Lions sent Stafford to the Los Angeles Rams in exchange for the Rams’ first-round draft picks in 2022 and 2023, a third-round pick in 2021, and quarterback Jared Goff.

The Indianapolis Colts have asked for additional compensation -- a player, players or picks -- along with Wentz in order to get close to the Eagles’ demands, according to a third person with knowledge of negotiations, who also was granted anonymity. That person said another undisclosed Eagles player has been brought up in discussions.

 

I'm all in on Wentz and Ertz for 2 firsts, a 3rd and a Colts player. 

1 hour ago, HazletonEagle said:

I hate the achilles injury for a CB which is why I hated Sidney Jones in round 1. I dont hate it as much for a RB. 

How recently have you asked your ortho friends? The mini-open repair technique has made recovery much better for achilles in the past couple of years. I do still think its a bigger deal than an ACL. It seems to take longer to fully recover. Healthy enough to play in 6-9 months these days, but probably not your athletic best sometimes for a few years.

However I think Marlon Mack will have his lateral agility which is his best attribute. Just less forward acceleration. At the same time, I think thats easier for a RB to regain than it is for a CB to backpedal then click and close. Thats such a higher eccentric load on the achilles, and a RB doesnt have to do that sort of movement. I think the effects will be less noticeable in a RB. My bigger worry is when does the re-tear, or other achilles pop? It seems quite likely.

Mack did this in September. Hes already going to be a full year removed by the start of next season. I think as a backfield share with Sanders youd get a solid return on investment. If the re-injury doesnt happen when he is still on the team here. 

 

I bring it up every time a key Eagle pops one off, which, regrettably, makes it an annual discussion.  It seems the present consensus is that you really should not expect much in year 1 after that injury, although our own Brandon Brooks is a notable exception.  

The most interesting discussion was Sidney Jones.  That was a draft pick that I actually found interesting.  Top half of round 1 pure cover guy is an interesting flier in round 2.  The guy I spoke with was an NFL team orthopod; he was very negative on the pick.  Basically said that we should expect a lost rookie year, followed by a year 2 that would be more investing in rebuilding muscle mass and strength than anything else.  So, best case scenario, we should expect 2 years of peak physical ability on a 4 year rookie contract.  He would have advised a team to account for 2 years of availability and productivity on a 4 year rookie contract.

Just an interesting talk for a draft pick I actually liked.

15 minutes ago, austinfan said:

Indy doesn't want a less costly QB, they want to pay the least for the best available QB.

And is Watson really that much better than Wentz? Watson puts up great individual statistics, they didn't seem to translate to team scoring (402, 378, 384) last three seasons. Meanwhile, Indy going from Luck to Brisset to Rivers scores 433, 361, 454 - the only pro bowl skill players? Ebron in 2018, Doyle in 2019, both TEs. Houston? Miller pro bowl, Hopkins all pro in 2018, Hopkins all pro in 2019. Eagles those three years, 367, 385, 344, Ertz pro bowl 2018, 2019. I expect an elite QB to have a bigger impact on team scoring.

The biggest issue with Wentz, even when he was playing well, is accuracy.  
 

He’s a career 62.7% and in 4 of 5 years he’s been under 64%.  The top 10 QBs this season were over 67%, with the top 3 (Rodgers, Brees, Watson) all over 70%.  That might not sound like a big difference, but when you’re making $34M per season you’re expected to be closer to 70% than 60%

How much of his inaccuracy is due to the absence of good WR talent?  Hard to say, but with the sheer volume of throws to the TE the past few years I’d say the number should be a lot better.

39 minutes ago, RLC said:

You can't judge any GM on reports. You judge them on the deal.

If we get a good return for Wentz, he did a good job.
If we get a bad return for Wentz, he didn't.

Avoid the noise.

Why not?  According to Lurie, we can judge Howie on all the great players he identified that were drafted ahead of the Eagles.  If we can do that, we can at least judge Howie by the reports of the great deals he almost got too.

You're Reich, you have to give up a king's ransom for Watson, you've outscored Houston with relatively similar level of talent, don't you have to ask yourself how much improvement would Watson bring given the cost? How can he put up those great stats yet not have it translate into team scoring?

You can get Wentz for far less, with Wentz as your QB, and Jeffrey and Smith as your WRs, and Ertz as your TE, you scored far more in 2017 than Watson has done any season.

Now Watson may be behind a better OL in Indy, but does that make a big difference given his style of play? Is he that comfortable in the pocket?

I'd like to see an in-depth analysis of Watson, because in today's NFL, with defenses playing soft between the 20s, you can pad QB stats (% comp, yards, etc) yet not be able to close the deal. Example in 2018, Eagles had 41 offensive TDs, Houston 38; 2019, Eagles had 43 offensive TDs, Houston had 44; 2020, Houston 43, Eagles 39. GB 64, Tenn 59, NO 58, TB 58, Buffalo 56, Seattle 55, KC 53, Ravens 51. In 2017, Eagles had 47 offensive TDs (lead the league), 38 from receptions.

 

19 minutes ago, austinfan said:

Indy doesn't want a less costly QB, they want to pay the least for the best available QB.

And is Watson really that much better than Wentz? Watson puts up great individual statistics, they didn't seem to translate to team scoring (402, 378, 384) last three seasons. Meanwhile, Indy going from Luck to Brisset to Rivers scores 433, 361, 454 - the only pro bowl skill players? Ebron in 2018, Doyle in 2019, both TEs. Houston? Miller pro bowl, Hopkins all pro in 2018, Hopkins all pro in 2019. Eagles those three years, 367, 385, 344, Ertz pro bowl 2018, 2019. I expect an elite QB to have a bigger impact on team scoring.

46 minutes ago, RLC said:

You can't judge any GM on reports. You judge them on the deal.

If we get a good return for Wentz, he did a good job.
If we get a bad return for Wentz, he didn't.

Avoid the noise.

He's a failure for even having to enter this negotiation.  Let's judge him on that.

Question answered.  Trolling it is.

10 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

I bring it up every time a key Eagle pops one off, which, regrettably, makes it an annual discussion.  It seems the present consensus is that you really should not expect much in year 1 after that injury, although our own Brandon Brooks is a notable exception.  

The most interesting discussion was Sidney Jones.  That was a draft pick that I actually found interesting.  Top half of round 1 pure cover guy is an interesting flier in round 2.  The guy I spoke with was an NFL team orthopod; he was very negative on the pick.  Basically said that we should expect a lost rookie year, followed by a year 2 that would be more investing in rebuilding muscle mass and strength than anything else.  So, best case scenario, we should expect 2 years of peak physical ability on a 4 year rookie contract.  He would have advised a team to account for 2 years of availability and productivity on a 4 year rookie contract.

Just an interesting talk for a draft pick I actually liked.

Interesting that the Eagle medical staff didn't note that, have they changed the staff since then?

7 minutes ago, austinfan said:

You're Reich, you have to give up a king's ransom for Watson, you've outscored Houston with relatively similar level of talent, don't you have to ask yourself how much improvement would Watson bring given the cost? How can he put up those great stats yet not have it translate into team scoring?

You can get Wentz for far less, with Wentz as your QB, and Jeffrey and Smith as your WRs, and Ertz as your TE, you scored far more in 2017 than Watson has done any season.

Now Watson may be behind a better OL in Indy, but does that make a big difference given his style of play? Is he that comfortable in the pocket?

I'd like to see an in-depth analysis of Watson, because in today's NFL, with defenses playing soft between the 20s, you can pad QB stats (% comp, yards, etc) yet not be able to close the deal. Example in 2018, Eagles had 41 offensive TDs, Houston 38; 2019, Eagles had 43 offensive TDs, Houston had 44; 2020, Houston 43, Eagles 39. GB 64, Tenn 59, NO 58, TB 58, Buffalo 56, Seattle 55, KC 53, Ravens 51. In 2017, Eagles had 47 offensive TDs (lead the league), 38 from receptions.

 

Let's talk about the time Watson got benched for poor play for the rest of a season. Oh yeah.... End of debate. 

41 minutes ago, T-1000 said:

Imagine if Howie actually is overplaying his hand as some are reporting and he ends up choosing between giving Wentz away or trying to bring him back after all of this. What a disaster.

Again, it's a disaster that he is even in this situation with the dumping of a franchise QB and all of the ramifications of the contract he negotiated.  

And now, he gets tasked with rebuilding a team that he put into this spot overall?

It is simply embarassing.

1 minute ago, Diehardfan said:

Let's talk about the time Watson got benched for poor play for the rest of a season. Oh yeah.... End of debate. 

It means Hurts is just as good as Watson. Obviously. 

Their isn’t much difference between Hurts and Mahomes. We are set up nicely for the foreseeable future. 

23 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

I bring it up every time a key Eagle pops one off, which, regrettably, makes it an annual discussion.  It seems the present consensus is that you really should not expect much in year 1 after that injury, although our own Brandon Brooks is a notable exception.  

The most interesting discussion was Sidney Jones.  That was a draft pick that I actually found interesting.  Top half of round 1 pure cover guy is an interesting flier in round 2.  The guy I spoke with was an NFL team orthopod; he was very negative on the pick.  Basically said that we should expect a lost rookie year, followed by a year 2 that would be more investing in rebuilding muscle mass and strength than anything else.  So, best case scenario, we should expect 2 years of peak physical ability on a 4 year rookie contract.  He would have advised a team to account for 2 years of availability and productivity on a 4 year rookie contract.

Just an interesting talk for a draft pick I actually liked.

Yeah. I was saying the same thing about Sidney Jones on draftnight and for days after. I said we might not see him at full strength until year 3 and so it was a horrible pick in round 2. People said I was being too negative and mad they didnt pick my guy cause it was also the year of Barnett and Pumphrey... But, I was right. 

But again, I would say CB is probably the worst position for an achilles tear. Theres not really any other position that puts the same kind of strain on the achilles. And, the eagles should have known that.

2 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

Their isn’t much difference between Hurts and Mahomes. We are set up nicely for the foreseeable future. 

Both are unproven. 

5 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

Their isn’t much difference between Hurts and Mahomes. We are set up nicely for the foreseeable future. 

Both have two arms and two legs.

5 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

It means Hurts is just as good as Watson. Obviously. 

Watson coming out of college had similar issues. A better prospect, but not a slam dunk, questions about accuracy and decision making. Hurts is actually faster.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/04/03/deshaun-watson-clemson-nfl-draft-scouting-report

"Teams will have to weigh the inconsistent field vision and decision-making against his size, athleticism, leadership and production. While not perfect, teams can add checks to both arm and accuracy boxes for Watson. However, discussions about whether or not his areas of improvement can be corrected will likely determine whether a team will view him as a high-upside prospect or a franchise quarterback. Watson's transition from Clemson's offense to a pro-style attack will obviously take time, but his combination of intangibles and athletic ability make him worth a first-round selection." — Lance Zierlein, NFL.com

https://www.sportscasting.com/deshaun-watsons-scouting-reports-look-unbelievably-silly-in-hindsight/

3 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

Both are unproven. 

Hurts has yet to choke in the SB. 😎

 

There is no way that Carson can be on this team after this offseason right?  I mean like no way?   No way Howie can't trade him even if he over played his hand and the deals are getting worse he can't have Carson and that would kill the locker room and ruin the new coaching staff. 

15 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

It means Hurts is just as good as Watson. Obviously. 

Except Hurts got benched before the season ended as well.