2 hours ago, mayanh8 said:

The leg amputation and strokes were direct results of COVID-19 and the subsequent treatments. But, yeah, keep thinking it's all a conspiracy to make Trump look bad.

These conspiracy theories drive me nuts.  It’s the same knuckleheads spouting the nonsense that HIV doesn’t "cause AIDS related deaths”.

 And typically what you hear is "He didn’t die from AIDS or HIV” he died from pneumonia.
 

 No kidding Sherlock, but the HIV/AIDS is what caused him to die from pneumonia.  What part of that do people not understand? 

3 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

These conspiracy theories drive me nuts.  It’s the same knuckleheads spouting the nonsense that HIV doesn’t "cause AIDS related deaths”.

 And typically what you hear is "He didn’t die from AIDS or HIV” he died from pneumonia.
 

 No kidding Sherlock, but the HIV/AIDS is what caused him to die from pneumonia.  What part of that do people not understand? 

Yup.   Some don’t understand that there is an immediate cause of death and an underlying cause of death.   It’s like when someone OD’s and goes into cardiac arrest.  Would these same people then say "he didn’t die from a drug overdose, he had a heart attack!”

44 minutes ago, Phillyterp85 said:

Yes, and that statement is false.  Observational studies do not show that a drug is effective.  Observational studies show that there is correlation.  Clinical trials show causation/effectiveness. 
And so far, the clinical trials that have been conducted have shown hydroxychloroquine to have no benefit. 

not sure what you mean by your follow up question of "where did I say anything was proven”?  If you are saying something is effective, aren't you saying it’s proven to be effective?

You and I are in agreement here, we are just dealing with semantics.  Maybe I shouldn't of used the words "shown to be effective" because it could imply that it was "proven" to some and that's not my intention.    But I'll quote one of the neurosurgeons behind the study, 

"Our analysis shows that using hydroxychloroquine helped saves lives,” said neurosurgeon Dr. Steven Kalkanis, CEO, Henry Ford Medical Group and Senior Vice President and Chief Academic Officer of Henry Ford Health System. "As doctors and scientists, we look to the data for insight. And the data here is clear that there was benefit to using the drug as a treatment for sick, hospitalized patients.”

 

And yes, we are dealing with limited information.  But the last thing anyone in the medical profession should do is to make this political or become biased because of politics. 

Could you imagine a doctor telling a patient that they could potentially save their life if they try this treatment or that treatment but the patient refuses the treatment because they heard on CNN that it was "killing people and that Trump recommended it",  it so it must be "bad"?   

Or on the other side, patients refusing to get vaccinated because Obama recommends vaccination and they don't agree with anything Obama says? 

 

 

14 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

You and I are in agreement here, we are just dealing with semantics.  Maybe I shouldn't of used the words "shown to be effective" because it could imply that it was "proven" to some and that's not my intention.    But I'll quote one of the neurosurgeons behind the study, 

"Our analysis shows that using hydroxychloroquine helped saves lives,” said neurosurgeon Dr. Steven Kalkanis, CEO, Henry Ford Medical Group and Senior Vice President and Chief Academic Officer of Henry Ford Health System. "As doctors and scientists, we look to the data for insight. And the data here is clear that there was benefit to using the drug as a treatment for sick, hospitalized patients.”

 

And yes, we are dealing with limited information.  But the last thing anyone should do in the medical profession is to try to politicize this.  Could you imagine a doctor telling a patient that they could potentially save their life if they try this treatment or that treatment but the patient refuses the treatment because they heard on CNN that it was "killing people and that Trump recommended it",  it so it must be "bad"?   

 

 

Absolutely nothing should be politicized here, agreed.   But Dr. Kalkanis is also putting the cart before the horse here by saying it’s clear that hydroxychloroquine helped save lives.  That can’t be known until a randomized clinical trial is conducted, and it is shown that the treatment group had improved outcomes as compared to the control group.     

I’m disappointed that doctor would make such a statement.  
Some doctors made similar statements based on earlier observational studies of hydroxychloroquine that also appeared to show effectiveness.  And then when randomized blind clinical trials were conducted, it turned out there was no benefit as compared to the control groups.

Now maybe their dosage is different than what has been tried and that makes a difference.  That would be great.  But until this is actually proven in a clinical trial, they should not be saying that their data shows that the drug was effective and saved lives.
 

3 minutes ago, Phillyterp85 said:

Absolutely nothing should be politicized here, agreed.   But Dr. Kalkanis is also putting the cart before the horse here by saying it’s clear that hydroxychloroquine helped save lives.  That can’t be known until a randomized clinical trial is conducted, and it is shown that the treatment group had improved outcomes as compared to the control group.     

I’m disappointed that doctor would make such a statement.  
Some doctors made similar statements based on earlier observational studies of hydroxychloroquine that also appeared to show effectiveness.  And then when randomized blind clinical trials were conducted, it turned out there was no benefit as compared to the control groups.

Now maybe their dosage is different than what has been tried and that makes a difference.  That would be great.  But until this is actually proven in a clinical trial, they should not be saying that their data shows that the drug was effective and saved lives.
 

I have very close family members both in the medical profession and pharmaceutical industry.  And I can say, like most of us, they have never dealt with anything like this before.  They are scrambling to find answers at rapid rates.  On a worldwide basis, nothing in the history of the world has been studied to such an extent, by so many people, in such a short time frame. 

When it comes to a pandemic like this, all they can do is use the limited information they have.  The world can not wait 3 years for "proven" treatments.  So things like this will happen...not just with hydroxyhloroquine but with every other treatment, until something "proven" to be effective is released. (I use quotation marks because rarely are treatments "proven" for all...just about every treatment has side effects and some treatments work for some but will not work for others).

1 minute ago, Ace Nova said:

I have very close family members both in the medical profession and pharmaceutical industry.  And I can say, like most of us, they have never dealt with anything like this before.  They are scrambling to find answers at rapid rates.  On a worldwide basis, nothing in the history of the world has been studied to such an extent, by so many people, in such a short time frame. 

When it comes to a pandemic like this, all they can do is use the limited information they have.  The world can not wait 3 years for "proven" treatments.  So things like this will happen...not just with hydroxyhloroquine but with every other treatment, until something "proven" to be effective is released. (I use quotation marks because rarely are treatments "proven" for all...just about every treatment has side effects and some treatments work for some but will not work for others).

As do I.  Including my dad who is an anesthesiologist who has been working at a hospital in NYC since January. And he’s been distraught at the rush to push drugs that have not been proven to be effective.  Especially drugs like hydroxychloroquine that are not benign. 

It doesn’t take 3 years to determine if an existing drug is effective in a new use during this pandemic. It would only take a few months.  Since it’s an existing drug that’s already been through safety trials, it goes right to testing for efficacy.  There have already been clinical trials for hydroxychloroquine that have been completed.  Unfortunately, those trials showed no benefits for the treatment group as compared to the control group.  Had those trials shown that the drug is effective, it would have already been proven then. 

The thing that looks most promising right now, and that could actually make a significant difference, are monoclonal antibodies.  If I recall correctly, it’s already been proven to work in the lab and in mice.  Next is human trials.  Hopefully we have an answer by October.
 

4 minutes ago, Phillyterp85 said:

As do I.  Including my dad who is an anesthesiologist who has been working at a hospital in NYC since January. And he’s been distraught at the rush to push drugs that have not been proven to be effective.  Especially drugs like hydroxychloroquine that are not benign. 

It doesn’t take 3 years to determine if an existing drug is effective in a new use during this pandemic. It would only take a few months.  Since it’s an existing drug that’s already been through safety trials, it goes right to testing for efficacy.  There have already been clinical trials for hydroxychloroquine that have been completed.  Unfortunately, those trials showed no benefits for the treatment group as compared to the control group.  Had those trials shown that the drug is effective, it would have already been proven then. 

The thing that looks most promising right now, and that could actually make a significant difference, are monoclonal antibodies.  If I recall correctly, it’s already been proven to work in the lab and in mice.  Next is human trials.  Hopefully we have an answer by October.
 

As far as hydroxychloroquine goes, from the limited research I have done, some complications seem to occur with people that have previous heart/cardiac conditions.  The next logical step would be to conduct a study that would exclude people with previous heart conditions (I believe the Ford study excludes them...not 100% sure on that).  But let’s not eliminate it as a possible temporary solution until more information is known about it and certainly do not make it political.   At this point, the medical profession needs to prioritize saving lives above all...even if it comes at higher levels of risk due to limited information.  
 

And hopefully, as you stated, we will have multiple treatments available by fall.  That’s the goal. 👍

16 hours ago, Mike030270 said:

That is fing terrifying.

16 hours ago, SPIDER-MAN said:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/05/politics/trump-medical-advisers-fda-commissioner/index.html

This is beyond disgusting. All because we have a big freakin' baby who will fire anyone and everyone if they don't agree with his ridiculous statements.

I want to say so many things on Twitter, but I don't want to get arrested for threats.

 

3 hours ago, Phillyterp85 said:

The elephant in the room that no one talks about is enforcement of the mandates that exist for wearing masks.  Dozens of articles written this week and nary a mention.  What good would speed limits do if there were no threat of a speeding ticket?

This makes me think of something Biden said last week.

He said when he is elected, his very first call will be to Dr. Fauci and his staff to invite him back in full and allow him daily access to both the American people via daily briefings as well as unlimited, direct access to the Oval Office so these issues that need to be addressed immidiately are not bogged down in partisan politics. 

G'dammit, we are in such a terrible situation because of what is currently going on down there.  It needs to change.

All this in the here and now  and we won't know if any long term effects for years to come. I wear my mask for that reason more than getting sick. 

17 hours ago, Mike030270 said:

 

That is horrific and should be shown to everyone who refuses to wear a mask and/or use social distancing when in public.

 

That said, not everyone on ventilators lays upside down for 2-3 weeks.  So let's not imply (possible) falsehoods to an already horrific situation.  The fact that someone needs to have a tube down their throat for days/weeks (even right side up)  should be horrifying enough to most. 

Don't fall into the trap of being able to be shown that you are wrong by naysayers just because you may post a misleading image. (Although what you state is mostly correct).   Post facts, post accurate pictures, etc.  What I would have done with that image is maybe show 1-2 people lying on their faces and show others with the less intensive therapies, lying on their backs, etc.  Show the complete picture, trust me, it's horrifying enough...and it won't/can't be criticized by anti-mask/conspiracy theory types.  

 

And this isn't directed at you, it's directed at the folks making these types of posts and tweets. 

 

 

This and the Bubba Wallace tweet. Leaning in hard on the racism this AM.

For the morons that think this doesn't impact people:

https://news.yahoo.com/started-corona-anti-asian-hate-130000846.html

Would a DNR work and be legit if I had to go on a ventilator?   I get stressed out looking at pics like that.  I have to do breast MRIs in that position and it is not comfortable.  I just close my eyes until it's over.    At least getting a test or treatment done (I also had radiation done in the prone position), you know when it's going to end.  

If I was on Twitter surely I'd be kicked off or arrested by now.  That man should not be allowed to make false statements and get away with it.  99% harmless! I want to break my TV

51 minutes ago, DaEagles4Life said:

All this in the here and now  and we won't know if any long term effects for years to come. I wear my mask for that reason more than getting sick. 

It's been months since I recovered from COVID-19. To this day, I still have a constant pressure in my chest, likely caused due to scarring in my lungs. I can't run or exercise anymore without immediately feeling like I'm suffocating. It feels like my lungs barely have the capacity to deliver enough oxygen to my body to keep it alive. Will it get better in time? Who knows. I have my doubts.

Keep the masks on.

 

 

I pulled up the official stats in Sweden.  It shows the number of COVID deaths (vertical axis) per week (horizontal axis).  The weeks are numbered here so we just finished week 26 and are now in week 27.

This graph was part of the official national report which was published on Friday, July 3rd and covered the period from week 6 which started on Feb 3rd thru week 26 which ended June 28th.

Interpret it however you like.  We have the following policies:

• recommended "work from home" (greatly respected)
• recommended "don't use public transport" (partially respected)
• social distancing (partially respected thru cultural norms)
• gatherings of >50 forbidden (greatly respected)
• no masks anywhere (you see one or two here or there only)
• very limited testing (this just changed dramatically to wide spread testing two weeks back so don't get confused by confirmed cases rising, the positive rates per test are dropping)
• two meter distancing in restaurants/bars which just dropped to one meter a week ago
• travel across the country was always legal but was recommended to be limited to 90 minutes drive ; that was removed a couple weeks back
• senior high schools and universities were moved to "from home" early March and just opened back up mid June after the year was over ; summer school is back to "in person"
• general hygiene is very high culturally

 

 

Washington Nats pitcher Sean Doolittle knocks this response out of the park:

 

Um, no. I won't get used to it.

The White House is so careless, they will get us all killed.

When someone agrees with Farakan, they've reached a whole new level of crazy....

Quote

"I say to my brothers and sisters in Africa, if they come up with a vaccine, be careful. Don’t let them vaccinate you with their history of treachery through vaccines, through medication,” Farrakhan said during the speech, which he gives annually on the Fourth of July.

"Do not take their medication,” the 87-year-old firebrand continued.

"They’re making money now, plotting to give seven billion, five-hundred million people a vaccination.
Dr. Fauci, Bill Gates and Melinda — you want to depopulate the Earth. What the hell gave you that right? Who are you to sit down with your billion to talk about who can live, and who should die?” Farrakhan said.

"That’s why your world is coming to an end quickly, because you have sentenced billions to death, but God is now sentencing you to the death that you are sentencing to others,” he continued.

 

9 hours ago, Saltpeter said:

I was driving up to visit family back in PA and decided why not take a detour and check out the Smokies in TN. I booked a hotel in the closest city with a major hotel chain -- Gatlinburg (For some reason I trusted that the larger chains would police themselves better with the COVID-19 cleaning than regional lodging).. I went out the first night to pick up some essentials and was shocked by the number of people walking tightly together down a busy street with no facial covering. Legit, it was like COVID-19 did not exist to 90% of the people there. There were hardly any stores nearby, only a Walgreens. The Walgreens was absolutely packed. almost shoulder-to-shoulder. I went in, thought about it briefly, and went out the door. But delivery options are limited there so I decide to go to Subway for food. Again, no facial coverings. Folks looked at me like I was a moron for wearing mine. Every gas station there and on the way there (from the south) was the same, no facial coverings.

I don't like to stereotype, but in this case, I made the wrong assumptions. I didn't assume widespread ignorance, but a competent-ish local government that enforced common sense health regulations. I assumed by doing something outdoorsy -- hiking the Appalachian trail -- I would be taking a COVID-19-friendly excursion detour. To say I feel like an idiot typing that would be selling the feeling short.

So now I don't know what to do. Should I turn around and head back home? Will I be reasonably safe wearing a mask indoors? I'd be staying for 5 days with 2 family members, both in 55+ with some health risk factors. What reasonably are the chances of my picking it up at a Subway restaurant, a few gas station bathrooms, or from passersby on the street? My gut tells me that if I socially distance and wear a mask indoors, I'll be safe. The research I've seen says there's about an 80% chance that even if picked up the virus there (or at some point before during work or grocery shopping) that I wouldn't spread it with SD/mask wearing. So there's probably a less than 50% chance I have it, and, even if I do, an 80% chance I won't spread it if I'm wearing a mask indoors. Still, the risk would be non-existent if I decided not to visit.

What would you all do?

I'm late but quarantine alone for 14 days and go home

1 hour ago, Ace Nova said:

That is horrific and should be shown to everyone who refuses to wear a mask and/or use social distancing when in public.

 

That said, not everyone on ventilators lays upside down for 2-3 weeks.  So let's not imply (possible) falsehoods to an already horrific situation.  The fact that someone needs to have a tube down their throat for days/weeks (even right side up)  should be horrifying enough to most. 

Don't fall into the trap of being able to be shown that you are wrong by naysayers just because you may post a misleading image. (Although what you state is mostly correct).   Post facts, post accurate pictures, etc.  What I would have done with that image is maybe show 1-2 people lying on their faces and show others with the less intensive therapies, lying on their backs, etc.  Show the complete picture, trust me, it's horrifying enough...and it won't/can't be criticized by anti-mask/conspiracy theory types.  

 

And this isn't directed at you, it's directed at the folks making these types of posts and tweets. 

 

 

Did you miss the part that it said "often upside down"?

1 hour ago, vikas83 said:

This and the Bubba Wallace tweet. Leaning in hard on the racism this AM.

For the morons that think this doesn't impact people:

https://news.yahoo.com/started-corona-anti-asian-hate-130000846.html

There would probably be hate crimes anyway since there were reports of it originating in China

I agree that calling it China virus is to likely stoke the flame though

I do hope there's repercussions to China after this is settled though

1 hour ago, mayanh8 said:

It's been months since I recovered from COVID-19. To this day, I still have a constant pressure in my chest, likely caused due to scarring in my lungs. I can't run or exercise anymore without immediately feeling like I'm suffocating. It feels like my lungs barely have the capacity to deliver enough oxygen to my body to keep it alive. Will it get better in time? Who knows. I have my doubts.

Keep the masks on.

That's horrifying. Not being able to work out if I catch this thing is my biggest fear (well, other than dying of course).

19 hours ago, Mike030270 said:

 

At this point anybody who doesn't wear a mask is a massive POS. We have a few on this board.

23 minutes ago, toolg said:

Um, no. I won't get used to it.

The White House is so careless, they will get us all killed.

Doubling down on what got us in the predicament we are currently in. Bold strategy Cotton. 

1 hour ago, mayanh8 said:

It's been months since I recovered from COVID-19. To this day, I still have a constant pressure in my chest, likely caused due to scarring in my lungs. I can't run or exercise anymore without immediately feeling like I'm suffocating. It feels like my lungs barely have the capacity to deliver enough oxygen to my body to keep it alive. Will it get better in time? Who knows. I have my doubts.

Keep the masks on.

I know people here that said the exact same thing.  Some said they got past it after a few months.  One guy told me he really did a ton of exercise and ultimately that helped him.  One guy says he is still in the same place you are in.

12 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

Doubling down on what got us in the predicament we are currently in. Bold strategy Cotton. 

It's the equivalent of shrugging your shoulders and going "meh". I can't believe people would vote for this.

14 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

Did you miss the part that it said "often upside down.

I did. And trust me, I’m on your side with this.  
 

 But the first thing the "anti-maskers” will do is Google a picture of people looking fine, face up on a ventilator.  Which is absurd but they would do it just to show that the actual pictures are not 100% accurate or they don’t tell the entire story.   And then the next thing they will do is post "Fake News”.  And follow it up on how hospitals are paid extra to put people on ventilators, etc etc. 

I’ve seen it done repeatedly over the course of the past 3 months.  And most of the time, the overall point is/could be correct.   Just letting you know from experience.  You can tell them the sky is blue but they will say, "Not here, it’s white and cloudy.”  🤷🏻‍♂️