3 hours ago, devpool said:

Easy to say we should stay closed when he isn't struggling to pay bills and his job is secure.

We found 4 trillion to bailout big corporations. If shutting down will save, say, 100k lives, then we can find the money to bail out ordinary people. 

The thing is, ordinary people have to start standing up for themselves and demanding that the government work for them. 

14 minutes ago, DEagle7 said:

There's no good answer here. 

I agree.  This is a non black/white topic.  The way it has been handled in Sweden has really been testing to detect surge/spread and that's it.  Relatively very few people have been tested in reality since early March.  Only those who are admitted into the hospital (to ensure they get the right treatment) and special spot testing to try to uncover patterns.  That's pretty much it really.  Some additional testing for medical workers.  I'm not saying this is a good approach but its what we've done over here over the last two months after it was clear the virus had gained traction.

Note: I have heard of a few companies who've purchased testing for their staff and then asked them to come back to work if they were negative.  I'm not so sure about that one to be honest and seems quite limited but I am 100% sure of a few companies that have gone this route.

In my mind the super mass testing is most valuable before the virus gains a solid foothold.  However, that approach is one that has to be restarted every time things flare up again unless of course you can lock down the entire country which doesn't seem very practical.  Maybe Iceland can pull that one off or at best New Zealand though it would be at a tremendous cost and they'd have to stay that way until a vaccine was in play.

3 hours ago, Gannan said:

Nothing says "America First" like aiding our greatest enemy to the detriment of our countrymen. 

Russia is still our greatest enemy?  

Just now, Outlaw said:

Russia is still our greatest enemy?  

Absolutely. The only thing that has changed between when they were called the soviet union and now is their flag and their leader's name. Their goals are the same.

So delaware announces they plan to hire 200 people to work as contact tracers.  So these 200 people are going to TRY to help trace what like 6000 or so active cases and whatever new positive cases appear to each and every person that these people may have infected.  And while they’re busy doing that, the 100,000 or so asymptomatic people that are out and about daily (you know because the shut down isn’t stopping people really / target is still jammed 24/7) and haven’t been tested are potentially infections hundred and thousands more.  Do you see the problem here?  It’s honestly a waste of time, money and resources to test people unless you’re testing every single person every single day and catching the virus red handed and then trying to stop it in its Tracks because these people have already touched 100 different surfaces and sneezed onto many necks at the checkout aisle of Lowe’s.

We’re just wasting time and money and the politicians are watching the economy burn.  It’s maddening.  

Politicians are shooting the dark.  They don't even have any goals other than to keep and increase their approval ratings.

16 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

I agree.  This is a non black/white topic.  The way it has been handled in Sweden has really been testing to detect surge/spread and that's it.  Relatively very few people have been tested in reality since early March.  Only those who are admitted into the hospital (to ensure they get the right treatment) and special spot testing to try to uncover patterns.  That's pretty much it really.  Some additional testing for medical workers.  I'm not saying this is a good approach but its what we've done over here over the last two months after it was clear the virus had gained traction.

Note: I have heard of a few companies who've purchased testing for their staff and then asked them to come back to work if they were negative.  I'm not so sure about that one to be honest and seems quite limited but I am 100% sure of a few companies that have gone this route.

In my mind the super mass testing is most valuable before the virus gains a solid foothold.  However, that approach is one that has to be restarted every time things flare up again unless of course you can lock down the entire country which doesn't seem very practical.  Maybe Iceland can pull that one off or at best New Zealand though it would be at a tremendous cost and they'd have to stay that way until a vaccine was in play.

It'll be really interesting to see how Sweden's approach is viewed long term.  Right now they're kind of the media punching bag but long term...honestly I don't know.  

I agree that testing as a means of tracing spread and quell outbreaks isn't as effective once the virus is already here (and would have been really most useful AS the virus became an issue), but I disagree testing/tracing not practical or useful now either.  My sister is starting up a tracing job now and the degree of accuracy they can achieve is really impressive even with pretty limited data.  It's not like it's crazy invasive or crazy costly to do. And at best I believe it can help isolate and stop spreaders, while at worst it could give us an early warning sign if another infection "wave" was starting. There's a middle ground to be found as we wait on confirmation of antibody testing and/or a vaccine.

 

1 hour ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Anyone got any podcasts they'd absolutely recommend? 

 

I cast my pod into your mom. I absolutely would not recommend that for you. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bah! Mom joke!  

1 minute ago, DEagle7 said:

It'll be really interesting to see how Sweden's approach is viewed long term.  Right now they're kind of the media punching bag but long term...honestly I don't know.  

I agree that testing as a means of tracing spread and quell outbreaks isn't as effective once the virus is already here (and would have been really most useful AS the virus became an issue), but I disagree testing/tracing not practical or useful now either.  My sister is starting up a tracing job now and the degree of accuracy they can achieve is really impressive even with pretty limited data.  It's not like it's crazy invasive or crazy costly to do. And at best I believe it can help isolate and stop spreaders, while at worst it could give us an early warning sign if another infection "wave" was starting. There's a middle ground to be found as we wait on confirmation of antibody testing and/or a vaccine.

 

Yes we will see.  What I can tell you is people here are feeling ok.  There is a sense of stability and calm and the population is engaged and aligned on the approach for the most part.  Life is far from normal but we aren't locked down and almost no one is wearing masks.  There is a social distancing being practiced everywhere in stores, restaurants, etc. and the offices are nearly empty.  Relatively speaking we are in good mental shape.

On the frontline the hospitals have not been overrun and the daily death numbers have been trending down now for several weeks.  Out in the Stockholm streets things are getting more crowded so we will need to wait and see if there is a 2nd spike.  Most people feel sure that the slow controlled burn will just continue and everyone has their own story about having been sick at some point.

The rates of death per million is among the higher rates though not in the range of say Italy, France, UK, or Spain.  To a large extent the price that has been paid so far is in the nursing homes and also lots of other medical procedures that have been delayed.  Of course there has been a tremendous economic price that is being paid daily.

 

12 minutes ago, probably said:

I cast my pod into your mom. I absolutely would not recommend that for you. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bah! Mom joke!  

...and I flew my electric eel into your mom's back door

 

 

 

 

 

 

bah!

13 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

...and I flew my electric eel into your mom's back door

You really put the shock in the shocker. 

22 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

Yes we will see.  What I can tell you is people here are feeling ok.  There is a sense of stability and calm and the population is engaged and aligned on the approach for the most part.  Life is far from normal but we aren't locked down and almost no one is wearing masks.  There is a social distancing being practiced everywhere in stores, restaurants, etc. and the offices are nearly empty.  Relatively speaking we are in good mental shape.

On the frontline the hospitals have not been overrun and the daily death numbers have been trending down now for several weeks.  Out in the Stockholm streets things are getting more crowded so we will need to wait and see if there is a 2nd spike.  Most people feel sure that the slow controlled burn will just continue and everyone has their own story about having been sick at some point.

The rates of death per million is among the higher rates though not in the range of say Italy, France, UK, or Spain.  To a large extent the price that has been paid so far is in the nursing homes and also lots of other medical procedures that have been delayed.  Of course there has been a tremendous economic price that is being paid daily.

 

yeah I'm curious where it all lands as well. I don't know that Sweden's approach could be readily transplants to other nations, especially not the US. 

that said, it would take a LOT of COVID-19 deaths in Norway and Finland to catch up to where Sweden is. area under the curve matters, but the numbers in sweden are over 300 / million now aren't they?

There's no clear time line on helping the non covid patients either.  Can you imagine getting a toothache right about now?  Sure the dentists are on call and will do emergencies. People with underlying medical conditions need to be seen, not talked to over the phone.  Children need to be seen and stay on their vaccination schedules.  I do see at our local hospital I believe some out patient surgeries are happening.  I just worry about folks not getting properly screened for various other troubles in time.  

Mr. Di is terminal and we are grateful he is still actively being treated and that I have a multitude of professionals that call me right back when I need them.  If something happens I'm calling them first instead of 911 who I know will try and revive him unless a Dr. tells them to stop. DNR or not.  We probably aren't too far away from Hospice, I assume they are still running but I'm not sure?  I really wish there was some clearer direction. And do I really want them here?  I hope I'm able to take care of him myself if I need to.  I think I could.  After radiation is done this week his blood counts over the next 2 weeks will determine if any further treatment will be given.

8 minutes ago, probably said:

You really put the shock in the shocker. 

yeah well it had to be done

1 minute ago, DiPros said:

There's no clear time line on helping the non covid patients either.  Can you imagine getting a toothache right about now?  Sure the dentists are on call and will do emergencies. People with underlying medical conditions need to be seen, not talked to over the phone.  Children need to be seen and get stay on their vaccination schedules.  I do see at our local hospital I believe some out patient surgeries are happening.  I just worry about folks not getting properly screened for various other troubles in time.  

Mr. Di is terminal and we are grateful he is still actively being treated and that I have a multitude of professionals that call me right back when I need them.  If something happens I'm calling them first instead of 911 who I know will try and revive him unless a Dr. tells them to stop. DNR or not.  We probably aren't too far away from Hospice, I assume they are still running but I'm not sure?  I really wish there was some clearer direction. And do I really want them here?  I hope I'm able to take care of him myself if I need to.  I think I could.  After radiation is done this week his blood counts over the next 2 weeks will determine if any further treatment will be given.

9 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

yeah I'm curious where it all lands as well. I don't know that Sweden's approach could be readily transplants to other nations, especially not the US. 

that said, it would take a LOT of COVID-19 deaths in Norway and Finland to catch up to where Sweden is. area under the curve matters, but the numbers in sweden are over 300 / million now aren't they?

I can agree with that.  Each place is unique and I wouldn't want to try the approach used here in many US localities but I think it would work in lots of places.

As for the numbers, yeah we will see and let's not forget that COVID deaths will only tell one part of the story.

45 minutes ago, probably said:

I cast my pod into your mom. I absolutely would not recommend that for you. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bah! Mom joke!  

Its been a while since you got me. 

 

Well played. 

2 minutes ago, DiPros said:

There's no clear time line on helping the non covid patients either.  Can you imagine getting a toothache right about now?  Sure the dentists are on call and will do emergencies. People with underlying medical conditions need to be seen, not talked to over the phone.  Children need to be seen and stay on their vaccination schedules.  I do see at our local hospital I believe some out patient surgeries are happening.  I just worry about folks not getting properly screened for various other troubles in time.  

Mr. Di is terminal and we are grateful he is still actively being treated and that I have a multitude of professionals that call me right back when I need them.  If something happens I'm calling them first instead of 911 who I know will try and revive him unless a Dr. tells them to stop. DNR or not.  We probably aren't too far away from Hospice, I assume they are still running but I'm not sure?  I really wish there was some clearer direction. And do I really want them here?  I hope I'm able to take care of him myself if I need to.  I think I could.  After radiation is done this week his blood counts over the next 2 weeks will determine if any further treatment will be given.

sorry to hear that miss. 😞 

I do worry about standard care being deferred resulting in a spike of emergency care needs for health needs that got out of control.

as much as I thought the strict lockdowns while the gov't got its ish together was a good thing, it's getting to where the cure may well be worse than the disease. and unfortunately I cannot say I see a lot of progress coming from the gov't on broadening testing and putting into place the things necessary to move to where we're managing this as a society rather than hunkering down.

Just now, DrPhilly said:

I can agree with that.  Each place is unique and I wouldn't want to try the approach used here in many US localities but I think it would work in lots of places.

As for the numbers, yeah we will see and let's not forget that COVID deaths will only tell one part of the story.

sure, it's only part of the story, but it's a pretty big part eh? it's the reason we here in the US are hunkering down as we are, to save lives. 

1 minute ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

sure, it's only part of the story, but it's a pretty big part eh? it's the reason we here in the US are hunkering down as we are, to save lives. 

Yes but we would also need to look at overall impact on the economy, quality of life, etc. all of which contribute greatly to a population's mental and physical condition both now and for a long time to come.  We'd really need to look back after say 40 years to see the true overall impact.

1 minute ago, DiPros said:

There's no clear time line on helping the non covid patients either.  Can you imagine getting a toothache right about now?  Sure the dentists are on call and will do emergencies. People with underlying medical conditions need to be seen, not talked to over the phone.  Children need to be seen and get stay on their vaccination schedules.  I do see at our local hospital I believe some out patient surgeries are happening.  I just worry about folks not getting properly screened for various other troubles in time.  

Mr. Di is terminal and we are grateful he is still actively being treated and that I have a multitude of professionals that call me right back when I need them.  If something happens I'm calling them first instead of 911 who I know will try and revive him unless a Dr. tells them to stop. DNR or not.  We probably aren't too far away from Hospice, I assume they are still running but I'm not sure?  I really wish there was some clearer direction. And do I really want them here?  I hope I'm able to take care of him myself if I need to.  I think I could.  After radiation is done this week his blood counts over the next 2 weeks will determine if any further treatment will be given.

I'm really sorry Di.  Hospices is still running everywhere I believe.  If you have a palliative care doc I'd reach out to them with questions, they'd be the best source of information for you right now and are very much used to answering tough questions.  Good luck to you and Mr Di.

22 minutes ago, DiPros said:

There's no clear time line on helping the non covid patients either.  Can you imagine getting a toothache right about now?  Sure the dentists are on call and will do emergencies. People with underlying medical conditions need to be seen, not talked to over the phone.  Children need to be seen and stay on their vaccination schedules.  I do see at our local hospital I believe some out patient surgeries are happening.  I just worry about folks not getting properly screened for various other troubles in time.  

Mr. Di is terminal and we are grateful he is still actively being treated and that I have a multitude of professionals that call me right back when I need them.  If something happens I'm calling them first instead of 911 who I know will try and revive him unless a Dr. tells them to stop. DNR or not.  We probably aren't too far away from Hospice, I assume they are still running but I'm not sure?  I really wish there was some clearer direction. And do I really want them here?  I hope I'm able to take care of him myself if I need to.  I think I could.  After radiation is done this week his blood counts over the next 2 weeks will determine if any further treatment will be given.

That's horrible. I'm so sorry.

13 minutes ago, DEagle7 said:

I'm really sorry Di.  Hospices is still running everywhere I believe.  If you have a palliative care doc I'd reach out to them with questions, they'd be the best source of information for you right now and are very much used to answering tough questions.  Good luck to you and Mr Di.

Thank you.  And thank you JohnSnowsHair. 🙂

I have a cousin that is a hospice nurse.  I'm considering reaching out to her.  We don't have palliative Doc on board.  His primary doc  is wonderful  -- his oncologist deferred to him to tell him he had brain mets.   Grateful to the radiation doc too, who is basically administering this as a palliative treatment.

damn Di, that's heartbreaking.

Just now, DiPros said:

Thank you.  And thank you JohnSnowsHair. 🙂

I have a cousin that is a hospice nurse.  I'm considering reaching out to her.  We don't have palliative Doc on board.  His primary doc  is wonderful  -- his oncologist deferred to him to tell him he had brain mets.   Grateful to the radiation doc too, who is basically administering this as a palliative treatment.

I'm glad your primary is someone you trust, that's huge and it sounds as if he has been a really good point person. IF you feel as if you want a little extra support and some clearer options/answers though, I'm a big palliative care advocate.  And you absolutely do not have to wait until things get bad before reaching out for them.  We would get them involved in even new cancer diagnoses, many of whom were not terminal, when we were training.  Their job isn't necessarily just preparing for death, it's about communication, symptom management, and discussing your goals and helping you reach them within the confines of what's going on.  

Just a thought.  I truly wish you both the best in an awful time.  

2 minutes ago, Alpha_TATEr said:

damn Di, that's heartbreaking.

It is.  But- Mr. Di lived the life he wanted.  He took risks, was a heavy smoker and drinker.  He was a hard worker as well.  His strength has really come through.  He's not ready quite yet.