42 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Nobody can figure out how to handle a jailbreak.... when the DL constantly puts pressure on you without the need to blitz... and your receiving options are below average.   And when it's a constant changing of players around you.   

This is not... " oh let's put pressure on the QB"   that's the goal on every play.   Now blitzing and sending extra guys...that's a strategy.   Did teams have to blitz the Eagles more last year?    I think they did a little.  And for sure our inability to pick up the blitz was an issue.   But that wasn't the whole story.  

The game isn't that simple where pressure just gets created that easily.  You can't do that to good teams. Teams..  not QBs ... teams. 

Plenty of ways to look at this. Teams could get pressure on Wentz without blitzing. Not good. They could afford to send blitzes because we couldn’t make them pay. Double edged sword of negative.

9 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

It doesn’t have to be that way. Patrick Mahomes is very capable of running. But he can kill you from the pocket ...and does. Russel Wilson been b1tching about his blocking. I agree with him. He’s been able to overcome bad protection by out running the defender. He’ll run backwards and around the DE or blitzer....but he still looks to throw and not just run. That’s a big key here.

Mahomes also has a knack for holding the ball longer…. As does Rodgers…. Point being those mobile guys that extend plays hold the ball longer they are never going to be the Brady or Manning’s that had to get rid of it. 

SNAP-TO-THROW	EXPECTED	DIFFERENCE
Josh Allen	3.14	2.67	0.47
Baker Mayfield	3.2	2.84	0.35
Lamar Jackson	3.01	2.73	0.28
Daniel Jones	2.91	2.63	0.27
Patrick Mahomes	2.97	2.79	0.18
-	-	-	-
Ryan Fitzpatrick	2.39	2.73	-0.27
Matthew Stafford	2.46	2.85	-0.29
Drew Brees	2.67	2.98	-0.31
Philip Rivers	2.51	2.88	-0.37
Dwayne Haskins	2.34	2.74	-0.40

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#yards

TT-time To throw 

Hurts held the ball the longest at 3.11 in his small sample 

Allen/Baker are up there at 3.04-3.05 

Mahomes is near the top with 2.89 Wentz had a 2.91 

Lamar and Wilson are at 2.97 and 2.98 

Again not stating it is bad or good just looking at it realistic trend clearly shows the guys that can extend hold the ball longer. I’m just stating the point that if you want a quick release passer we likely don’t have it. Hurts is going to hold the ball longer then the pocket guys like Brady 

And again holding the ball longer is a double edge sword so to speak… You are going to have the moments where the extended play gets guys open and big plays happen but it also tends lead to bad sacks and plays as well. 

36 minutes ago, jsb235 said:

One aspect you are not considering is that Hurts faces a ton of zone defense, which requires more time for the qb to get the ball out since in man you can often identify a favorable matchup and let it fly right away.

 

I’m considering everything I’m just stating the obvious didn’t state holding the ball is a terrible thing just the reality that we are not going to have Brady and the quick trigger pass game. It’s like comparing apples to oranges. 
 

The pocket guys have to develop there games around getting the ball out quicker they are not going to be able to extend and do things that guys like Hurts can. This leads to the mobile guys holding the ball longer. 
 

I’m just looking at it as I’m expecting Hurts to be in the Wilson realm in terms of holding the ball and not expect him to throw the ball in 2.5 secs like Brady 

44 minutes ago, Bleedinggreen93 said:

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#yards

TT-time To throw 

Hurts held the ball the longest at 3.11 in his small sample 

Allen/Baker are up there at 3.04-3.05 

Mahomes is near the top with 2.89 Wentz had a 2.91 

Lamar and Wilson are at 2.97 and 2.98 

Again not stating it is bad or good just looking at it realistic trend clearly shows the guys that can extend hold the ball longer. I’m just stating the point that if you want a quick release passer we likely don’t have it. Hurts is going to hold the ball longer then the pocket guys like Brady 

Probably should have quoted your post before this also. But this is an excellent point. But I don’t believe it needs to be this way. I believe a good QB needs to be able to deliver timing passes. Three step drop and release. Hit his guy right on his break. Sometimes before he’s actually open. Doesn’t have to be the Big Ben way of hanging in there to deliver the huge strike. That’s good at times. But I really believe in having timing with your receivers being unstoppable. Wentz never could do that. His shorter inaccuracies bugged me. Thought those should/ and could have been improved. But the timing patterns of quick release patterns is simply a training and prep thing. Can’t understand why those never materialized.

11 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Probably should have quoted your post before this also. But this is an excellent point. But I don’t believe it needs to be this way

Doesn’t have to be this way but I’m also not believing we are going to just buck the trend either. 

1 hour ago, jsb235 said:

 One aspect you are not considering is that Hurts faces a ton of zone defense, which requires more time for the qb to get the ball out since in man you can often identify a favorable matchup and let it fly right away.

Teams won't be able to play much man against Hurts because a DB could be watching a receiver while Hurts is already 30 yards down the field. For Hurts to be successful, he is going to have to be able to identify soft spots in zones to deliver the ball. The good thing is that our old offensive system was based mostly on four vertical routes, which was terrible since, far too often, the four guys running the routes weren't vertical threats, so it made it easy on the defense.

A new system based on crossing patterns, levels and screens/bunch formations should make it much easier to Hurts to either get the ball out quickly, wait for a play to develop down field or take off and run.

So instead of a progression going through four receivers every play, it will often be two options, with running being the third option.

It should lead to a lot of easy throws to open receivers, and stress the defense since they will have to be constantly aware of the running threat.

I watched a lot of film recently from Wentz's rookie year, and I would suggest doing that, since that offense is what I think ours will look like. Wentz almost never made it to three progressions. He was constantly hitting checkdowns or Matthews and Ertz (RBs, Matthews and Ertz accounted for 230 of the team's 380 completions.)

I think our offense could be a much better version of this, considering we have a much better oline and better receivers. And we also have the benefit of Hurts being able to run, which adds a dimension to the offense that we didn't have.

The biggest question will be whether or not Hurts will be able to attack the third level of the defense. That depends on Hurts as well as the young wrs.    

Plenty of excellent points here. Lots to think on.

26 minutes ago, Bleedinggreen93 said:

Doesn’t have to be this way but I’m also not believing we are going to just buck the trend either. 

I don’t see why not. Big scale numbers on how long a guy that can actually escape the pressure will always equal longer times of holding on the ball. I mean the immobile guy gets sacked in two seconds versus the mobile guy taking three to get sacked. But to be Qb you need those timing patterns. We’ve been missing those. Vick and Wentz just wouldn’t learn or do it. But it’s something any QB has the ability to accomplish. It’s unstoppable. Got to implement it into each game.

44 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Vick and Wentz just wouldn’t learn or do it. But it’s something any QB has the ability to accomplish. It’s unstoppable. Got to implement it into each game.

And Mcnabb wouldn’t and Mahomes isn’t timing patterns nor is Wilson…. And I’m not expecting Hurts to be much of that timing guy either. 
 

Odds are if you out there dancing around extending plays timing isn’t huge part of your game they are not using timing routes and throws.

Again big thing to me is I’m not really knocking it just stating that different style QBs play the game different as long as I’ve been an Eagles fan we have favored the extend play guys that make wow plays but aren’t your super accurate get rid of the ball players. 

I mean Mcnabb was a 60ish % guy and had some of the worst short throws 
MV as magical as he was at times especially extending plays he was your 60% guys and had some off throws 

Wentz same thing 

Hurts I’d guess will follow suit probably be that low 60ish % guy make the wow plays and have those wtf misses. 

Also to add it isn’t a bash on any of those QBs just making the point of there different play styles compared to the type your talking about….

I was a huge Mcnabb fan quite enjoyed MV and still believe in Wentz. So even if Hurts is in that mold doesn’t mean he can’t be successful

Andy Dalton threw three interceptions in seven on seven drills while Fields uncorked a bomb TD

26 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Andy Dalton threw three interceptions in seven on seven drills while Fields uncorked a bomb TD

If Fields does well and becomes a franchise QB that doesn’t bode well for us especially if Hurts doesn’t become the guy and we passed on him 

I can’t get enough of watching film breakdown and highlights of Milton Williams. Plays on the other side of the line of scrimmage the whole time!

6 minutes ago, Bleedinggreen93 said:

If Fields does well and becomes a franchise QB that doesn’t bode well for us especially if Hurts doesn’t become the guy and we passed on him 

Definitely wouldn’t be good for us in that scenario. But we all knew Fields has an arm. Do him chucking it deep is within his capabilities for sure. I remember part TC they talked a bunch about how Hurts unleashed a 99 yard pass to Bailey(I think was his name. Didn’t make the team). Dalton isn’t anything special and is in a new city, new team and especially a completely new scheme. Really weird with the QB battle between Dalton and Fields all while Foles is just sitting there as the third string.

Tons of ways for things to unfold BG. What if DeVonta becomes an elite WR?

Bears, Cowboys and Giants will all be pissed

I think DeVonta was going to be our pick if we had to stay at six

1 hour ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Tons of ways for things to unfold BG. What if DeVonta becomes an elite WR?

It will lessen the blow but if we passed on a franchise QB that we could have gotten sitting at 12…. Especially if Hurts doesn’t pan out….

But again Inalso acknowledged the flip if Hurts pans out and we get Smith as an elite WR then hey good on us 

11 hours ago, jsb235 said:

 One aspect you are not considering is that Hurts faces a ton of zone defense, which requires more time for the qb to get the ball out since in man you can often identify a favorable matchup and let it fly right away.

Teams won't be able to play much man against Hurts because a DB could be watching a receiver while Hurts is already 30 yards down the field. For Hurts to be successful, he is going to have to be able to identify soft spots in zones to deliver the ball. The good thing is that our old offensive system was based mostly on four vertical routes, which was terrible since, far too often, the four guys running the routes weren't vertical threats, so it made it easy on the defense.

A new system based on crossing patterns, levels and screens/bunch formations should make it much easier to Hurts to either get the ball out quickly, wait for a play to develop down field or take off and run.

So instead of a progression going through four receivers every play, it will often be two options, with running being the third option.

It should lead to a lot of easy throws to open receivers, and stress the defense since they will have to be constantly aware of the running threat.

I watched a lot of film recently from Wentz's rookie year, and I would suggest doing that, since that offense is what I think ours will look like. Wentz almost never made it to three progressions. He was constantly hitting checkdowns or Matthews and Ertz (RBs, Matthews and Ertz accounted for 230 of the team's 380 completions.)

I think our offense could be a much better version of this, considering we have a much better oline and better receivers. And we also have the benefit of Hurts being able to run, which adds a dimension to the offense that we didn't have.

The biggest question will be whether or not Hurts will be able to attack the third level of the defense. That depends on Hurts as well as the young wrs.    

A lot of over-analysis IMO.   Hurts held the ball longer because he can avoid the rush longer because he is faster/quicker...etc    So he can run longer before throwing the ball.   Which happened last year.    

Curious to see what Mahomes stats look like in the SB as far as holding the ball... my guess it was really high.  They rush in ASAP, he escaped with the athletic ability and gave himself more time to throw the ball.   Then someone looks at that stat and thinks he had all day to throw, it was his fault.    For me, the time a QB holds the ball is on how fast the WRs get open mostly.  The play call is another factor.   Never all on the QB, very rarely is he even the main factor IMO.  

Think about it.   Hurts a one read and run guy, vs Wentz a guy who likes to sit and make reads... how else would Hurts actually hold the ball longer?   Obviously it was his ability to keep away from the rush longer before he had to get rid of the ball.  

10 hours ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Probably should have quoted your post before this also. But this is an excellent point. But I don’t believe it needs to be this way. I believe a good QB needs to be able to deliver timing passes. Three step drop and release. Hit his guy right on his break. Sometimes before he’s actually open. Doesn’t have to be the Big Ben way of hanging in there to deliver the huge strike. That’s good at times. But I really believe in having timing with your receivers being unstoppable. Wentz never could do that. His shorter inaccuracies bugged me. Thought those should/ and could have been improved. But the timing patterns of quick release patterns is simply a training and prep thing. Can’t understand why those never materialized.

I mean. What happened in 2017?   Like for 13 games?   Guys need to get open, I think we really understate how bad our WRs were.  Or the lack of practice time they all had with wentz.  Forget the Covid, I'm talking about guys going in and out of the lineup all year.  

Teammates matter.  If you went to any games live, one trend I saw a ton, the drops didn't match the routes.   The thing I saw a ton, Wentz ready to throw ASAP, WRs not looking for the ball, no where near their breaks.  i'm not talking about timing routes outside, I'm talking about drags, crossing patterns, stuff that the WRs didn't seem to have urgency... like old andy WC offense stuff.   Caused Wentz to sit there too close to the line and no where to throw,  The deeper drops seemed to work better.    I think this was what we lost with Reich.  Details to plays.  I like Doug when you give him a good game plan, I think he calls a decent game.  But without Reich's influence on play design and the overall game plan, he wasn't as effective.    Plus let's be honest.... the last 2 seasons he wasn't given much at all to work with.  

1 hour ago, joemas6 said:

I mean. What happened in 2017?   Like for 13 games?   Guys need to get open, I think we really understate how bad our WRs were.  Or the lack of practice time they all had with wentz.  Forget the Covid, I'm talking about guys going in and out of the lineup all year.  

Teammates matter.  If you went to any games live, one trend I saw a ton, the drops didn't match the routes.   The thing I saw a ton, Wentz ready to throw ASAP, WRs not looking for the ball, no where near their breaks.  i'm not talking about timing routes outside, I'm talking about drags, crossing patterns, stuff that the WRs didn't seem to have urgency... like old andy WC offense stuff.   Caused Wentz to sit there too close to the line and no where to throw,  The deeper drops seemed to work better.    I think this was what we lost with Reich.  Details to plays.  I like Doug when you give him a good game plan, I think he calls a decent game.  But without Reich's influence on play design and the overall game plan, he wasn't as effective.    Plus let's be honest.... the last 2 seasons he wasn't given much at all to work with.  

I've been trying to look at this subject with clear lenses and this is how I see reality.