1 minute ago, joemas6 said:

He needs to step up!  Just like Graham did.    

Can he do it...  I think so ... I don't know for sure, which scares me... it needs to be definite!   

Graham has never been an elite pass rusher to me not a bad player and does well in the dirty work of the DL good run defender but sorry if Graham is what we are gunning for that is sad especially spending a top 15 first rounder on a guy 

Roseman traded a 1st round draft pick (New England flipped the pick to Dallas who selected WR Dez Bryant) and two 3rd round draft picks to Denver for a 1st round draft choice that would become Brandon Graham

HOWIE ROSEMAN: With the 14th pick we took Derek Barnett from Tennessee. We're really excited to get Derek. Highest rated guy on our board. A player throughout the process that we had done a lot of work on.  We're always going to build along the lines, but at the same time, we wanted to stick to our board and take the highest rated guy. He fits our scheme, he fits the culture we're trying to build. We think we've got a tremendous player and a tremendous person.

 

The other perfect comparison between Graham and Barnett .... neither were the main player for the offense to focus on.  Which should give them more stats ( you know for the stat people)  You are 2nd or 3rd priority for the OL.. ZERO double teams... so step up.   Should be even easier if Hargrave and Jackson stay healthy next to the dominant ALL DECADE DT Fletchere Cox.   The future HOF.   

It's my concern for Yannick.... you all love him, looking at his production and the situation that he was in... playing on good if not great DLs... one pro bowl, one year where he was near the top in sacks...etc.   IDK, I'm skeptical.  It's not all about stats for me... the context of the situation matters.  

I’m don’t write young players off though i still think Barnett can get better just my bar for him is set way higher then being another Graham 

2 minutes ago, Bleedinggreen93 said:

Graham has never been an elite pass rusher to me not a bad player and does well in the dirty work of the DL good run defender but sorry if Graham is what we are gunning for that is sad especially spending a top 15 first rounder on a guy 

I think Graham has been a much better player after his initial 3 to 5 years.   I would take Barnett stepping up to almost pro bowl level that Graham was say... 2016-2018.   He needs to get there first.   

2 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

playing on good if not great DLs... one pro bowl, one year where he was near the top in sacks...etc.   IDK, I'm skeptical.  It's not all about stats for me... the context of the situation matters.  

Isn’t that literally Barnett as well who has zero pro bowls...hmmmmm I don’t know

2 minutes ago, Bleedinggreen93 said:

I’m don’t write young players off though i still think Barnett can get better just my bar for him is set way higher then being another Graham 

Gotta get to one level first ... before you can pass it.   Would be nice jsut for him to get to Graham's top level first.   

Just now, Bleedinggreen93 said:

Isn’t that literally Barnett as well who has zero pro bowls...hmmmmm I don’t know

Right... but not the production.... so it's why I need him to step up.   

2 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Gotta get to one level first ... before you can pass it.   Would be nice jsut for him to get to Graham's top level first. 

Lmao cop out answer of course he has to keep rising but again your bar seems to be Graham are you happy with that because again I would not be...

6 minutes ago, Bleedinggreen93 said:

I’m don’t write young players off though i still think Barnett can get better just my bar for him is set way higher then being another Graham 

BTW... I don't really have a bar for Barnett per se.... my idea is that we NEED him going forward.  I am looking at our current situation.... at DE... where are we in 2021 and 2022...etc.?    Barnett needs to be better than Graham was at his peak... because he won't have the benefit of Cole and Cox to play with ...during their primes.  We either have to draft those guys or spend $$ in FA for them?     Really if Barnett could turn into the legit #1 DE that teams need to double team, I don't care about his stats... that will help us in a big way.  If not, then we need to find that guy soon.  Right now too many unknowns at DE.  

Barnett could be our best DL in 2022 ... so he needs to step up.  And yeah probably at a higher level than Graham ever achieved.   

I’ll ask this question when is the last time we had a DE get double digit sacks???? I mean seriously Cox has been demanding double teams on the inside for years giving guys 1 v 1s and we can not get a double digit sacker???? Hell if you don’t want single player stats when is the last time our team has been Top 15 in sacks or top 10....We praise our DL as being a top unit yet they don’t seem to produce great run D unit but that is only part of the equation 

4 minutes ago, Bleedinggreen93 said:

Lmao cop out answer of course he has to keep rising but again your bar seems to be Graham are you happy with that because again I would not be...

Answer above..... don't really matter about me being happy.... more so what the team needs.   He will have more pressure on him and probably need to surpass Graham   For me though.... it doesn't have to all happen in 2020.   But he needs to step up in that direction.  Ultimately ... if he is exactly at Graham's level... then we need to add much more to the DL.    So yeah... probably wont be good enough .. .with the long view.  2020 .. I will take Graham at his best level type of play from Barnett.  Would be a huge jump to what he has shown in the first 3 years.

Then this goes back to the pass D is our DL not living up to expectations because we can’t cover or can we not cover because our DL can’t get home???? Likely a combo of the two but fact I’m getting at is we need to be better I want player to be better...I don’t want another Graham with Barnett I want better(I realize there are steps to climb along the way)

2 minutes ago, Bleedinggreen93 said:

I’ll ask this question when is the last time we had a DE get double digit sacks???? I mean seriously Cox has been demanding double teams on the inside for years giving guys 1 v 1s and we can not get a double digit sacker???? Hell if you don’t want single player stats when is the last time our team has been Top 15 in sacks or top 10....We praise our DL as being a top unit yet they don’t seem to produce great run D unit but that is only part of the equation 

Stop the run and pressure the QB.    Individually we have not had that great DL other than Cox.  2017 we had a healthy group that were a bunch of above average guys ... nothing spectacular for sure though.     So looking ahead... Barnett is key... at minimum he needs to be the above average #2 option... but then what do you build around him?   Then you need the one great player and other above average guys... would be much easier if he was the great player.   The best one... but I don't see it.   Who knows... it's my biggest fear for this team.. a dropoff in DL play which causes the defense to just go downhill.    Barnett is such a key piece to stop that.   

3 minutes ago, Bleedinggreen93 said:

Then this goes back to the pass D is our DL not living up to expectations because we can’t cover or can we not cover because our DL can’t get home???? Likely a combo of the two but fact I’m getting at is we need to be better I want player to be better...I don’t want another Graham with Barnett I want better(I realize there are steps to climb along the way)

OK... so lets stop talking vague..... in 2020.... Barnett plays like Graham at his peak.   What are your thoughts in February?   To me its a big jump.... is it enough for you for one year to think he can do more going forward.  Or does he need to reach much higher level this year.    Forget the rest of the career... just this year?

In a scene reminiscent of Lieutenant Kaffee asking Colonel Jessup if he ordered the code red, Howie Roseman was literally pinned into a corner at the NovaCare Complex Tuesday, where he was asked multiple times if he drafted Marcus Smith. "I'll take responsibility for everything that happened when I was general manager here," said Roseman, when asked initially about Smith. "I'm happy to take responsibility for all that."That was immediately followed up with the question, "Was it your decision to draft (Smith)?"  Yes said Roseman.  Okay, Howie drafted Smith, Graham, and Barnett with first round draft picks. If you don't think these guys measure up, there is a common denominator.

Today,  years after Jeff Lurie made Banner his first hire after buying the Eagles, Banner looks back at his two favorite draft picks with particular fondness.

I’ll give you two names: Brian Westbrook and Trent Cole,” Banner said. 

The Eagles selected Westbrook in the third round in 2002 with the 91st pick overall and Cole in the "fifth round" in 2005 with the 146th pick. If Trent Cole was your guy, Thank Banner. 

1 minute ago, joemas6 said:

OK... so lets stop talking vague..... in 2020.... Barnett plays like Graham at his peak.   What are your thoughts in February?   To me its a big jump.... is it enough for you for one year to think he can do more going forward.  Or does he need to reach much higher level this year.    Forget the rest of the career... just this year?

I’m not just thinking about next year though like I said I realize there are steps for Barnett to climb. My point from the start is graham should not be the measuring stick we want Barnett to reach I want higher then him... Will he need to get to his level and pass him along the way yes but I want I higher bar 

6 minutes ago, Bleedinggreen93 said:

Then this goes back to the pass D is our DL not living up to expectations because we can’t cover or can we not cover because our DL can’t get home???? Likely a combo of the two but fact I’m getting at is we need to be better I want player to be better...I don’t want another Graham with Barnett I want better(I realize there are steps to climb along the way)

I want Reager to be Jerry Rice .... but gotta realize there are steps to get there.   If he was say .... Tyreke Hill level ASAP.. then great.    I want Barnett to be Reggie White ... so far if you were on another team, you wouldn't really know who Barnett was ... but you know Graham.   If he makes that jump at his age... compared to where it took Graham much longer... I would like it.   Figure he should only get better.   For 2020 I would be satisfied.... it's 2020 now... so I'm not focused down the road yet.  But agree with you... eventually he needs to be better than Graham ever was, ... my reason is the team needs it... it's not for my personal preference.  Or " my bar"   

3 minutes ago, Bleedinggreen93 said:

I’m not just thinking about next year though like I said I realize there are steps for Barnett to climb. My point from the start is graham should not be the measuring stick we want Barnett to reach I want higher then him... Will he need to get to his level and pass him along the way yes but I want I higher bar 

Great... so Im asking you to just think about 2020.   We agree on after that.  But just for 2020.... you get Graham's best level play for Barnett.... are you satisfied for that huge jump ... or is it not enough for just this year?   

12 minutes ago, 1wrangler said:

In a scene reminiscent of Lieutenant Kaffee asking Colonel Jessup if he ordered the code red, Howie Roseman was literally pinned into a corner at the NovaCare Complex Tuesday, where he was asked multiple times if he drafted Marcus Smith. "I'll take responsibility for everything that happened when I was general manager here," said Roseman, when asked initially about Smith. "I'm happy to take responsibility for all that."That was immediately followed up with the question, "Was it your decision to draft (Smith)?"  Yes said Roseman.  Okay, Howie drafted Smith, Graham, and Barnett with first round draft picks. If you don't think these guys measure up, there is a common denominator.

Today,  years after Jeff Lurie made Banner his first hire after buying the Eagles, Banner looks back at his two favorite draft picks with particular fondness.

I’ll give you two names: Brian Westbrook and Trent Cole,” Banner said. 

The Eagles selected Westbrook in the third round in 2002 with the 91st pick overall and Cole in the "fifth round" in 2005 with the 146th pick. If Trent Cole was your guy, Thank Banner. 

I agree... if winning a Superbowl was your thing ..... THANK HOWIE!   

Just now, joemas6 said:

I agree... if winning a Superbowl was your thing ..... THANK HOWIE!   

Actually, With a record breaking 500 yards passing against our defense in the Super Bowl,  I thanked God for our Super Bowl victory.  Howie comes in second.

Joe Banner ... ZERO ... ZILCH ... NADA ... NOTHING .... 0  .... 0.0    ... 0.00 and ...0.000  Superbowls.    If Superbowls is your thing ... then Joe Banner is not your guy.   

It's all good.   some people like stats.... some people like drafts... some people like Free agency ... some people like salary cap ..... some people like coaching ... some people like 4-3 or 3-4 DL....  some people like passing others like running.      

Ultimately.... winning SBs is what it's about.   So far one guy has done that here.  So he has the better resume... and the one to thank for that.   He is in the lead.   But what should matter is going forward.  So while he is the absolute best in franchise history... he is neither flawless nor does he get a pass going forward.   He just simply gets the nod as the one who did accomplish getting the job done... the only one to do that here.    

So it's great that Brian Westbrook and Trent Cole stand out as Joe Banner's accomplishments.... Howie will have to settle for the Lombardi trophy ... as he tries to get another one to match.  Hopefully just like Banner was able to replicate hios pinnacle of success by drafting Cole to match Westbrook... Howie can do the same.   

Just now, 1wrangler said:

Actually, With a record breaking 500 yards passing against our defense in the Super Bowl,  I thanked God for our Super Bowl victory.  Howie comes in second.

I credit Banner 32nd in drafting Westbrook and Cole.... I thank the other 31 GMs for passing them up.    Banner comes in 32nd

Just now, joemas6 said:

Joe Banner ... ZERO ... ZILCH ... NADA ... NOTHING .... 0  .... 0.0    ... 0.00 and ...0.000  Superbowls.    If Superbowls is your thing ... then Joe Banner is not your guy.   

It's all good.   some people like stats.... some people like drafts... some people like Free agency ... some people like salary cap ..... some people like coaching ... some people like 4-3 or 3-4 DL....  some people like passing others like running.      

Ultimately.... winning SBs is what it's about.   So far one guy has done that here.  So he has the better resume...

Yep, using your same analogy one QB has won a Super Bowl for the Eagles so he has the best resume. Winning the Super Bowl is all that matters, Foles won it and Wentz didn't. Nada for McNabb, Nada for Jaws, Nada for any of them. You didn't mind getting rid of Foles so why would you mind getting rid of Roseman?

5 minutes ago, 1wrangler said:

Yep, using your same analogy one QB has won a Super Bowl for the Eagles so he has the best resume. Winning the Super Bowl is all that matters, Foles won it and Wentz didn't. Nada for McNabb, Nada for Jaws, Nada for any of them. You didn't mind getting rid of Foles so why would you mind getting rid of Roseman?

The idea is what was best going forward.... at this time it was Wentz or Foles.... both are currently way better than McNabb, Jaws or Randall.    I don't mind getting rid of Roseman.   Give me a guy you know for sure would work better?    I just find it ironic... you have been an Eagles fan for what.... 60 years?     You have seen utter crap from this franchise... yet the one guy who built the only team to win, you want to rush to get rid of him after 2 years?    Why?   If Howie fails going forward, let's get rid of him... now is not the time after the last 3 years... which should be the bar for the best 3 years this organization has had in the Superbowl era.  Ironically with probably the worst injury situation for 3 years.   

6 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

The idea is what was best going forward.... at this time it was Wentz or Foles.... both are currently way better than McNabb, Jaws or Randall.    I don't mind getting rid of Roseman.   Give me a guy you know for sure would work better?    I just find it ironic... you have been an Eagles fan for what.... 60 years?     You have seen utter crap from this franchise... yet the one guy who built the only team to win, you want to rush to get rid of him after 2 years?    Why?   If Howie fails going forward, let's get rid of him... now is not the time after the last 3 years... which should be the bar for the best 3 years this organization has had in the Superbowl era.  Ironically with probably the worst injury situation for 3 years.   

Really Joe, What I have seen in the 55 years of being a fan is some crap but also some excellence as well. They just were never able to put it all together at the right time on both sides of the line of scrimmage. Free agency has made it easier for guys like Howie to compete with GM's that actually have the skill set to judge talent. IMO Howie would have never made it as a GM prior to free agency. Am I glad for the Super Bowl victory? Of course. Do I think the Eagles had a better defense with Bud Carson in charge? Yeah I liked the Eagles defense through the years much better with guys like Carson, Ryan and Johnson running the show than I do now. Do I believe that the Eagles had a few better teams through the years than the 2017 Super Bowl winning team. Yep I do but if you don't win it, it doesn't matter. I haven't done one bit of bragging about the Super Bowl victory because every time I think about the win, I also think about Brady throwing that last pass to the end zone and watching what could have been at least three different pass interference calls that could have been made on that play and no one would have been able to dispute the calls. In other words I am thankful for the victory but also know that luck was involved more than skill on that last play. Especially when the Patriots never punted the ball one time in that game. It was the Eagles time to win a Super Bowl that year. It has been a very long time since the Eagles had a team that you thought would win against any team they played. That is more important to me going forward than anything else. Having a team where you are shocked when they lose a game. Just give me one of those teams before I kick off! A trend setting team instead of a team that is always trying to catch up to a trend setting team.

2 minutes ago, 1wrangler said:

Really Joe, What I have seen in the 55 years of being a fan is some crap but also some excellence as well. They just were never able to put it all together at the right time on both sides of the line of scrimmage. Free agency has made it easier for guys like Howie to compete with GM's that actually have the skill set to judge talent. IMO Howie would have never made it as a GM prior to free agency. Am I glad for the Super Bowl victory? Of course. Do I think the Eagles had a better defense with Bud Carson in charge? Yeah I liked the Eagles defense through the years much better with guys like Carson, Ryan and Johnson running the show than I do now. Do I believe that the Eagles had a few better teams through the years than the 2017 Super Bowl winning team. Yep I do but if you don't win it, it doesn't matter. I haven't done one bit of bragging about the Super Bowl victory because every time I think about the win, I also think about Brady throwing that last pass to the end zone and watching what could have been at least three different pass interference calls that could have been made on that play and no one would have been able to dispute the calls. In other words I am thankful for the victory but also know that luck was involved more than skill on that last play. Especially when the Patriots never punted the ball one time in that game. It was the Eagles time to win a Super Bowl that year. It has been a very long time since the Eagles had a team that you thought would win against any team they played. That is more important to me going forward than anything else. Having a team where you are shocked when they lose a game. Just give me one of those teams before I kick off! A trend setting team instead of a team that is always trying to catch up to a trend setting team.

I'm 47 ... been watching since Vermeil... seen Excellence in 1980 ... 1991 on defense ..... 2002 .... 2004.    ... this prior to 2017.    Reality have only felt like we were the legit best team 3 times... 1980, 2002 and 2017.    The Qbs got hurt in 1991 and 2002 ... but same in 2017.   Yet the GM put together a squad that I still thought was better even with the backup QB.   Don;t remember the other injuries  besides QB being as key as they were in 2017 ... yet still our first title.   

Free agency have been howl long now?   Not sure New England has any Superbowls without it... probably Dallas doesn't get all 3 of theirs in the 1990s either without getting Dion and other free agents      I think you are really invested in the draft.   Your focus is on that with probably more weight than it should.   It's why you don't like Howie.   To each their own.