4 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

So the vet minimum is $4 -5 million?   This is where you get into unnecessary debates all the time,  you don't pay attention to the other guy's post.   The vet minimum is not $4-5 mil.  Did Sudfeld make $4 mil last year?  He was over the vet minimum and made less.  The designation of "vet minimum " actually allows the player to make more money ( idk the exact #, maybe around $1 million depending upon how many years of service) but the whole amount does not count vs the cap.    And there is no dead money or any cost year 2.  Plus you don't use the draft pick.    So it's cheaper than a draft pick. 

OK, Suds was always a #3. I would rather pay a guy to see if he can at least be a #2, which Suds could never do. I'm thinking you'd be hard pressed to find a #2 for 1 mil a year. Maybe a #3,but right now we need both

Just now, GreenbleedinNC said:

OK, Suds was always a #3. I would rather pay a guy to see if he can at least be a #2, which Suds could never do. I'm thinking you'd be hard pressed to find a #2 for 1 mil a year

I don't care... it's not a normal year.  You don't need a clear # 2 like a normal year where you want your #2 to give your team a chance to win.   It's to your advantage to lose if Hurts does not work out , so it puts you in better draft position.   Hurts or bust at QB...I'll take the bust and the worse record.   I will use all the other resources to build up the rest of the roster. 

4 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

I don't care... it's not a normal year.  You don't need a clear # 2 like a normal year where you want your #2 to give your team a chance to win.   It's to your advantage to lose if Hurts does not work out , so it puts you in better draft position.   Hurts or bust at QB...I'll take the bust and the worse record.   I will use all the other resources to build up the rest of the roster. 

Building up the rest of the roster should include a BU/potential QB at least. We have BU's everywhere else,but you want to skip a YOUNG BU QB?

OK Joe,you take the annual "vet". Just like Suds we just kept him here even when there were better draft options at QB. So now you want that with your #2 also and I do not. I want young guys with potential to move higher in the organization. To me getting a "vet presence" tells me you suck at drafting and you suck at developing as well as lack of planning farther ahead and IMO that is a basic "panic" CYA move because of your failures listed above

1 minute ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

Building up the rest of the roster should include a BU/potential QB at least. We have BU's everywhere else,but you want to skip a BU QB?

Who are the backups everywhere else?  We need to prioritize the starters.  Finding a rookie that could be a backup in a few years doesn't help this team advance any.  I'd rather take a flyer on a guy that could start.   Play right away.  It's better for Hurts or the next guy to build the rest of the roster.  You see this with pick 6, why don't you see it the rest of the way?  For me, I would prefer to pick one 6th if at all. The guy you think could start ,not a flyer to prioritize a clear # 2.

Just now, GreenbleedinNC said:

OK Joe,you take the annual "vet". Just like Suds we just kept him here even when there were better draft options at QB. So now you want that with your #2 also and I do not. I want young guys with potential to move higher in the organization. To me getting a "vet presence" tells me you suck at drafting and you suck at developing as well as lack of planning farther ahead and IMO that is a basic "panic" CYA move because of your failures listed above

It tells me we want to use the draft to build up the rest of the team and we are all in with Hurts this year.

1 minute ago, joemas6 said:

Who are the backups everywhere else?  We need to prioritize the starters.  Finding a rookie that could be a backup in a few years doesn't help this team advance any.  I'd rather take a flyer on a guy that could start.   Play right away.  It's better for Hurts or the next guy to build the rest of the roster.  You see this with pick 6, why don't you see it the rest of the way?  For me, I would prefer to pick one 6th if at all. The guy you think could start ,not a flyer to prioritize a clear # 2.

We played with BU wide receivers all year and Scott had to take over for Sanders a few games. IU will also remind you that Hurts was drafted as the #2, but now a late pick guy can't be drafted as the new #2?

3 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

It tells me we want to use the draft to build up the rest of the team and we are all in with Hurts this year.

A 6th pick is barely noticeable lol. Your making it sound like Im doing another round 2 or worse yet going QB at the 6 pick,we have 3 6 picks, using 1 on a QB is not going to change the team dynamic and at the worst he can't be worse than Suds,so what do you lose?

So with the 6 picks you want to "build the team" What are you getting in round 6? Mostly BU's I would assume. SO whats the diff if thats a BU QB or a BU LB?

2 minutes ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

OK Joe,you take the annual "vet". Just like Suds we just kept him here even when there were better draft options at QB. So now you want that with your #2 also and I do not. I want young guys with potential to move higher in the organization. To me getting a "vet presence" tells me you suck at drafting and you suck at developing as well as lack of planning farther ahead and IMO that is a basic "panic" CYA move because of your failures listed above

The backup QB is irrelevant... until you build the team up to 2017 level.  Nobody cares about backup QB if their team isn't going anywhere with the starter.   

It's one of the things this team did differently from 2016- 17.   They didn't get the legit #2 ( Foles) until after the rest of the team was built.   Other years,  we draft Kolb, sign Vick,  draft Foles early, same with Hurts.

Look at the difference in success?  Get the starters first.  If they invest with a draft pick for a backup,  it tells me they are spinning wheels again. 

2 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

The backup QB is irrelevant... until you build the team up to 2017 level.  Nobody cares about backup QB if their team isn't going anywhere with the starter.   

It's one of the things this team did differently from 2016- 17.   They didn't get the legit #2 ( Foles) until after the rest of the team was built.   Other years,  we draft Kolb, sign Vick,  draft Foles early, same with Hurts.

Look at the difference in success?  Get the starters first.  If they invest with a draft pick for a backup,  it tells me they are spinning wheels again. 

And 1 round 6 pick is gonna get that done? OK got it. We'll simply have to agree to disagree. I really HOPE we find a STARTER in round 6

3 minutes ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

A 6th pick is barely noticeable lol. Your making it sound like Im doing another round 2 or worse yet going QB at the 6 pick,we have 3 6 picks, using 1 on a QB is not going to change the team dynamic and at the worst he can't be worse than Suds,so what do you lose?

Was the last late QB drafted any " worse than Suds"  waste of pick and cap space.    

But think about it.... look at other teams... do you think the backup QB on a bad team makes any difference?  We are a bad team.   We need to draft and invest like we are a bad team that needs to take their time to build a roster.  We can let another team take the QBs. 

1 minute ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

And 1 round 6 pick is gonna get that done? OK got it. We'll simply have to agree to disagree. I really HOPE we find a STARTER in round 6

I would rather take the chance to find another useful player... even a good ST player ... before the luxury of a back up

1 minute ago, joemas6 said:

Was the last late QB drafted any " worse than Suds"  waste of pick and cap space.    

But think about it.... look at other teams... do you think the backup QB on a bad team makes any difference?  We are a bad team.   We need to draft and invest like we are a bad team that needs to take their time to build a roster.  We can let another team take the QBs. 

Once again a round 6 at any position is not going to make huge waves. You always preach BPA, what if that is a QB in round 6?

1 minute ago, joemas6 said:

I would rather take the chance to find another useful player... even a good ST player ... before the luxury of a back up

Well we have ZERO BU's right now,so I hope Hurts can go the distance

So using an extreme example, if Lance feel to us in round 6 you would pass him up?

1 minute ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

Once again a round 6 at any position is not going to make huge waves. You always preach BPA, what if that is a QB in round 6?

QB is always exception to the rule for me.  I prioritize starter.  A punter round 6 could start. A ST player plays more snaps than a backup QB. Like I said.  Until we take care of the starters,  I don't want to worry about the backups.  Find QB one... then go get QB 2.   The UDFA for me is good enough compared to round 6.  Look at your draft board. Get me one of those guys you passed on for the QB.

3 minutes ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

Well we have ZERO BU's right now,so I hope Hurts can go the distance

Howie is talking about backup QB stating looking at all avenues... Talks about FA, trades and the draft.

Reality is we going to sign a QB in FA and wouldn’t shock me if we draft one(well we all know my stance on what I think we do round 1) 

7 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Was the last late QB drafted any " worse than Suds"  waste of pick and cap space.

Because it was an erroneous pick and/or we could not develop him which are the problems I mentioned

4 minutes ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

Well we have ZERO BU's right now,so I hope Hurts can go the distance

So again...  why do you want to win if it's not with Hurts?  You like doing mocks with pick #6 right?   Better than pick 15?   

It's not a normal year... you shouldn't worry about winning games without Hurts.   Why do you seem to care so much about that?  That is exactly the " spinning wheels " you keep talking about isn't it?   

2 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

QB is always exception to the rule for me.  I prioritize starter.  A punter round 6 could start. A ST player plays more snaps than a backup QB. Like I said.  Until we take care of the starters,  I don't want to worry about the backups.  Find QB one... then go get QB 2.   The UDFA for me is good enough compared to round 6.  Look at your draft board. Get me one of those guys you passed on for the QB.

OK I got you on the punter, but usually thats a rare occurrence as is a LS. Even kickers last awhile(usually). So in my view I get a decent BU this year,so hopefully I dont have to do it next year and the guy has a year into the rebuild,because for me that is the most important position on the field

2 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

So again...  why do you want to win if it's not with Hurts?  You like doing mocks with pick #6 right?   Better than pick 15?   

It's not a normal year... you shouldn't worry about winning games without Hurts.   Why do you seem to care so much about that?  That is exactly the " spinning wheels " you keep talking about isn't it?   

SO if Lance was there in round 6 you would pass on him and I wouldn't I'm not worried about this year,I am planning to have players that can win the following year. Maybe that's Hurts or maybe it 's someone else,but I will never know if I dont draft him

3 minutes ago, Bleedinggreen93 said:

Howie is talking about backup QB stating looking at all avenues... Talks about FA, trades and the draft.

Reality is we going to sign a QB in FA and wouldn’t shock me if we draft one(well we all know my stance on what I think we do round 1) 

BG, I think good chance we draft one early.  And sign a free agent on the level that GB is fearing...a little more expensive.  None will be legit competition for Hurts, but I think the front office just can't help themselves in wanting to avoid being completely bad.  This way they can spin things as excuses. 

8 minutes ago, Bleedinggreen93 said:

Howie is talking about backup QB stating looking at all avenues... Talks about FA, trades and the draft.

Reality is we going to sign a QB in FA and wouldn’t shock me if we draft one(well we all know my stance on what I think we do round 1) 

Then why did we let the top 2 we could have had go elsewhere???? Whomever we get now will be a bottom dweller, I would rather draft one and get a UDFA young guys who can grow with the team as we rebuild it

2 minutes ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

SO if Lance was there in round 6 you would pass on him and I wouldn't I'm not worried about this year,I am planning to have players that can win the following year. Maybe that's Hurts or maybe it 's someone else,but I will never know if I dont draft him

Dude, I'm not worried about next year.   How are we going to win next year when all the better players are even a year older?    This is probably the fundamental thing we disagree on... I think it's a long-term rebuild. Years... not year.