Do I expect every player making minimal money to play at Fletcher Cox level? Heck no! 

Just now, joemas6 said:

I'm already there.... I absolutely think Wentz makes that mediocre team... which was the results...7 out of 16... better.  

You need him to be better than the Chiefs ....who have studs all around that QB... that's the bar you set for " the savior"     

It's why I am saying let's see what happens.  I think all this nonsense you are spewing where you try to make him seem like the failure and not the garbage that was around him be the issue will get proven wrong.    Does he have to elevate a mediocre team over the Chiefs?    Idk maybe for you...  but yet Hurts wouldn't have to?  Just be consistent. 

It was 7 out of 16 in the AFC.

So the Chiefs have studs surrounding Patrick Mahomes? That’s your story? That he’s just an ok QB that has playmakers making him great? BS. Got  a great TE and a burner WR. Hardly call that surrounded by studs. I obviously stated if you take a team that top tier like the Colts and add your super stud in Wentz over a guy that lost everything so much he had to retire you should expect a SB. At least near it. Or more so just made it simple. If Wentz is even a decent QB he should blow away the numbers of a guy that felt he had to hang up his cleats  at the end of the season. Surely that’s a very very low bar right? Just be better than a guy who knows his career is over and he’s washed up. 

23 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

ATL didn’t have offensive struggles. They have no defense. Don’t see anything your saying fixing them winning. They gotta get some D or Matty Ice can’t save them. Did you see them at all last season? They just got out scored...like every week.

I mean they are BIB on offense. Like us they will hit the D this draft after they take Pitts

3 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Easy. Because we traded all kinds of stuff to get to two to take Wentz. Then paid him crazy money to be that guy. What we got was a guy that got everyone fired. 

So of coarse the bar isn’t as high with Hurts. Why should it be? 

Because the players at the same position should be judged to have the same success with all things being equal.   It's a team sport.   If one player is good and another player is bad.  The team loses because of the bad player, not the good one.  

You are too obsessed on draft capital and salary.   Those are just tools to build a roster.   They ultimately mean squat in judging players.    Dak vs Wentz a prime example.  The surrounding cast makes a difference in the results,  not the draft position or the salary.  

Again...  " a savior"   that's for religion, not team sports. 

And I’m actually the guy that’s been complaining about the garbage team we have...for the last couple years. You can’t put me in any other box. I stood alone while everyone bashed me and tried to convince me how great we were. No sir. You barking up the wrong tree. You on that wagon now...but I’ve been there. You are very late to come to that understanding my friend.

4 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

So the Chiefs have studs surrounding Patrick Mahomes? That’s your story? That he’s just an ok QB that has playmakers making him great? BS. Got  a great TE and a burner WR. Hardly call that surrounded by studs. I obviously stated if you take a team that top tier like the Colts and add your super stud in Wentz over a guy that lost everything so much he had to retire you should expect a SB. At least near it. Or more so just made it simple. If Wentz is even a decent QB he should blow away the numbers of a guy that felt he had to hang up his cleats  at the end of the season. Surely that’s a very very low bar right? Just be better than a guy who knows his career is over and he’s washed up. 

UH, they also have a bevy of RB's(and they can all catch)

1 minute ago, cunninghamtheman said:

So the Chiefs have studs surrounding Patrick Mahomes? That’s your story? That he’s just an ok QB that has playmakers making him great? BS. Got  a great TE and a burner WR. Hardly call that surrounded by studs. I obviously stated if you take a team that top tier like the Colts and add your super stud in Wentz over a guy that lost everything so much he had to retire you should expect a SB. At least near it. Or more so just made it simple. If Wentz is even a decent QB he should blow away the numbers of a guy that felt he had to hang up his cleats  at the end of the season. Surely that’s a very very low bar right? Just be better than a guy who knows his career is over and he’s washed up. 

The Colts were 7th seed out of 16.   Not a top tier team in their own conference.   It's just reality.   They didn't win their division.... and would not have been a playoff team if not for your favorite new rule in 2020 of adding another team.   Basically they were the worst playoff seed.   

Again...your bar seems to change all the time when it fits your agenda.

Yes... I think many people would say Mahomes has had it pretty easy so far.   His OL was good except for one game ...we saw how that went for him.  And his weapons are considered a top group in the league.      

But Indy was top tier?     Really?  Lol

5 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

So the Chiefs have studs surrounding Patrick Mahomes? That’s your story? That he’s just an ok QB that has playmakers making him great? BS. Got  a great TE and a burner WR. Hardly call that surrounded by studs. I obviously stated if you take a team that top tier like the Colts and add your super stud in Wentz over a guy that lost everything so much he had to retire you should expect a SB. At least near it. Or more so just made it simple. If Wentz is even a decent QB he should blow away the numbers of a guy that felt he had to hang up his cleats  at the end of the season. Surely that’s a very very low bar right? Just be better than a guy who knows his career is over and he’s washed up. 

IDK that he HAD to hang them up, but you know after taking hits for years, you'd kinda like to have a retirement out of a hospital

4 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Because the players at the same position should be judged to have the same success with all things being equal.   It's a team sport.   If one player is good and another player is bad.  The team loses because of the bad player, not the good one.  

You are too obsessed on draft capital and salary.   Those are just tools to build a roster.   They ultimately mean squat in judging players.    Dak vs Wentz a prime example.  The surrounding cast makes a difference in the results,  not the draft position or the salary.  

Again...  " a savior"   that's for religion, not team sports. 

BS...I’ll repeat BS. You think spending a bunch of picks AND players doesn’t effect a roster? You think paying a guy doesn’t limit what else you add? What world are you in? It all matters. If your top paid guy sucks...your team probably sucks. 
  

3 minutes ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

UH, they also have a bevy of RB's(and they can all catch)

All Pros everyone. Those RBs are just making Mahomes a decent QB. Carrying him to glory. I mean you and No Mas are right....the Chiefs are so great you just put any QB back there and they win it all. What fools they are to pay him. They probably should just cut Mahomes. He’s a product of the system and the stars around him. Of coarse. I’m sure everybody agrees with you. Put Suds in the Chiefs offense and he’ll be All Pro himself. Sorry guys....I was seeing it wrong and thought Mahomes was incredible. Silly me!

4 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

And I’m actually the guy that’s been complaining about the garbage team we have...for the last couple years. You can’t put me in any other box. I stood alone while everyone bashed me and tried to convince me how great we were. No sir. You barking up the wrong tree. You on that wagon now...but I’ve been there. You are very late to come to that understanding my friend.

Lol... not really.   You spent your time obsessing over Nate Gerry and Shariff Miller.    Lane was the bad pick, should have been Ziggy Anzah...  years of annoying us with that one.   

First Schwartz is great having to deal with all the injuries,  now it's his fault as to why the CBs were bad? Which is it? 

8 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

All Pros everyone. Those RBs are just making Mahomes a decent QB. Carrying him to glory. I mean you and No Mas are right....the Chiefs are so great you just put any QB back there and they win it all. What fools they are to pay him. They probably should just cut Mahomes. He’s a product of the system and the stars around him. Of coarse. I’m sure everybody agrees with you. Put Suds in the Chiefs offense and he’ll be All Pro himself. Sorry guys....I was seeing it wrong and thought Mahomes was incredible. Silly me!

I never bashed Mahomes(except for the SB). Even when he first arrived as a rook, his team was better than what we have right? I never said Mahomes was bad, but I agree he has it EASY or EASIER than the position we put Wentz in. Not Suds,but if you put a coherent QB back there(Suds was not) they will succeed. SO, how would say, DAK do in KC? or Lamar jackson? I think they would do well there

7 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

The Colts were 7th seed out of 16.   Not a top tier team in their own conference.   It's just reality.   They didn't win their division.... and would not have been a playoff team if not for your favorite new rule in 2020 of adding another team.   Basically they were the worst playoff seed.   

Again...your bar seems to change all the time when it fits your agenda.

Yes... I think many people would say Mahomes has had it pretty easy so far.   His OL was good except for one game ...we saw how that went for him.  And his weapons are considered a top group in the league.      

But Indy was top tier?     Really?  Lol

Love how you dance around the question. You know better than to remotely even go there. Because you know Wentz won’t blow away the guy that had to retire because he was washed up. I mean if you think Wentz is incredible and everything was everybody else’s fault here....then it should be easy for you, right? Simple..Wentz is better than the guy who had to retire. But you can’t even do it. Because you don’t believe it yourself. 

5 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

BS...I’ll repeat BS. You think spending a bunch of picks AND players doesn’t effect a roster? You think paying a guy doesn’t limit what else you add? What world are you in? It all matters. If your top paid guy sucks...your team probably sucks. 
  

Didn't say any the things you are saying.    I simply stated that teammates matter more on the results of how a guy plays than all the other stuff.   It's why Dak has had better stats, he has consistently had plus WRs ( except half of a season where he stunk)  good OL play, a running game to build off of.    

And I will say... we don't win the SB without moving up and paying and all that other stuff we did for the QB that drew the free agents to come here and get the team in position with the one seed.   That worked out well for us. 

 The ensuing dumpster fire was not his fault.  There were different players that should have been drafted and money that could have been spent elsewhere. 

5 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Love how you dance around the question. You know better than to remotely even go there. Because you know Wentz won’t blow away the guy that had to retire because he was washed up. I mean if you think Wentz is incredible and everything was everybody else’s fault here....then it should be easy for you, right? Simple..Wentz is better than the guy who had to retire. But you can’t even do it. Because you don’t believe it yourself. 

BTW the Colts were forced to get Rivers because their "star" QB LUCK just walked away with no warning

3 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Lol... not really.   You spent your time obsessing over Nate Gerry and Shariff Miller.    Lane was the bad pick, should have been Ziggy Anzah...  years of annoying us with that one.   

First Schwartz is great having to deal with all the injuries,  now it's his fault as to why the CBs were bad? Which is it? 

Nate Gerry wasn’t good. Obvious to me. Just figured we all saw the same. Shareef Miller was a bad pick. Even if he was better than he is...we had no room for him. Wasted draft pick. I have no problem with thinking Ziggy Ansah was an elite pass rusher. He was. In fact everyone ever around him agrees. That he played through an injury and tugged it out when he shouldn’t have...well that’s terrible. Detroit is just terrible. Why would they let him do that? Terrible decision by them. Love the guys heart and effort. To many Primma Donnas nowadays. He paid the worst price for it. Had we drafted him and managed his injury right...everybody knows he was a stud. Unbelievable talent. A shame. I don’t look back at that and think he wasn’t good enough. He was sick. They ruined his career. But going out by playing through an injury you shouldn’t have....no shame for him. I actually really respect that from him.

7 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

All Pros everyone. Those RBs are just making Mahomes a decent QB. Carrying him to glory. I mean you and No Mas are right....the Chiefs are so great you just put any QB back there and they win it all. What fools they are to pay him. They probably should just cut Mahomes. He’s a product of the system and the stars around him. Of coarse. I’m sure everybody agrees with you. Put Suds in the Chiefs offense and he’ll be All Pro himself. Sorry guys....I was seeing it wrong and thought Mahomes was incredible. Silly me!

Well.. neither of us said they were carrying Mahomes. 

My point is take away the QB spot, I think KC is still one of the elite teams.  They didn't miss a beat when Mahomes was out .  

But yeah...  they did seem to have All pros everywhere.   Mahomes didn't really need to be " a savior"  did he.   He simply elevated a really good team.   Similar to what another guy did in 2017.   

But the one game he was put in position to have to be " a savior"   he kinda failed only leading his team to 9 points.

If I am not mistaken... he is by far the highest paid player with half a billion?  And didn't KC trade up for him? 

9 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Lol... not really.   You spent your time obsessing over Nate Gerry and Shariff Miller.    Lane was the bad pick, should have been Ziggy Anzah...  years of annoying us with that one.   

First Schwartz is great having to deal with all the injuries,  now it's his fault as to why the CBs were bad? Which is it? 

The years of annoying was about Rosie. Everybody called him the wizard and a genius. I kept telling you this was all coming. Bringing back DJax. Nope....bad move. Jernigan...Malik...my track record is well known. I’m not perfect. But I was alone here stating how the team is going down hill. And I’m stubborn. Held my ground as you and others ripped at me fit such belief. But now...now....it’s time for you to apologize for Wentz....so the team was just terrible. I am the consistent one. Stubbornly.

7 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Well.. neither of us said they were carrying Mahomes. 

My point is take away the QB spot, I think KC is still one of the elite teams.  They didn't miss a beat when Mahomes was out .  

But yeah...  they did seem to have All pros everywhere.   Mahomes didn't really need to be " a savior"  did he.   He simply elevated a really good team.   Similar to what another guy did in 2017.   

But the one game he was put in position to have to be " a savior"   he kinda failed only leading his team to 9 points.

If I am not mistaken... he is by far the highest paid player with half a billion?  And didn't KC trade up for him? 

You really are bashing Mahomes as he was limping? Terrible point by you. Yes both his T went down to injury. Major factor. Him being injured and immobile while not having an Oline....combination was brutal. Was Wentz limping and injured? Ertz is so much worse than Kelce? Pretty much thinking Mahomes makes guys look good. Can get them to be All Pro. Didn’t see Wentz really elevate anyone. Actually witnessed guys looking better when he went out. Pederson had a better record without Wentz starting. Those are the facts. 
   So heck yeah Mahomes is worth every Penny. Nobody else thought Wentz was. Every team in the league would line up for a trade fit Mahomes. We struggled to get two very desperate teams to offer anything for Wentz. Got a second round pick...next year...for him. That’s what the league thinks of him. Not me. But yeah...I see it too. I wouldn’t trade for Wentz. I wouldn’t give up a future second round pick for him. That’s the guy you love and think is amazing.

Just now, cunninghamtheman said:

The years of annoying was about Rosie. Everybody called him the wizard and a genius. I kept telling you this was all coming. Bringing back DJax. Nope....bad move. Jernigan...Malik...my track record is well known. I’m not perfect. But I was alone here stating how the team is going down hill. And I’m stubborn. Held my ground as you and others ripped at me fit such belief. But now...now....it’s time for you to apologize for Wentz....so the team was just terrible. I am the consistent one. Stubbornly.

Why does anyone have to be " a savior "  " a wizard"  or " a genius"    ??? 

To me it's a team sport.  You can be good or very good... and when you have other good things around you,  you have success and then you can take some credit.

I don't think Howie was any genius. I think that 2017 team took pieces from years of building and then added the right finishing touches and did it the right way over 2 years of 2016-17.   I don't think it makes Howie a genius. 

I don't think Doug was ever this elite coach either.  He hired a good staff and managed the game well, and benefited from the great roster in 2017.  But I think he proved himself the following 2 years not being total disaster after the injuries.     I don't think 2020 he was given anywhere near even a bad hand, it was historically awful.       

But I mirror the same for Wentz.  2017, he had the best cast.   He proved himself in 2019 when it wasn't good.  2020 not fair to judge with the ultimate dumpster fire. 

Howie, Doug and Wentz.  Give credit when it was due,  no need to be " wizard, genius or savior "    

Where we are at now.  The new coach and QB, will have to work with a roster that won't have the pieces built over time like how Doug and Wentz had a decent start in 2016.     A lot of that was put in place by people other than Howie.      Now it's all Howie having to do it, but he has to build it from the ground up.  These older pieces that are here now will be gone by the time we get good again. 

But my main issue still remains consistent.   Doug and Wentz proved to me they can be pieces of the puzzle.   The issue is putting the pieces around them.  The organization failed them.

I'm not biased like you... can't blame Doug, but blame Wentz.  They were dealt the same putrid hand. 

But you never realized what won us that SB. Think it was because we were the greatest team of all time. It was because of the intangibles you giggle about. Yes, you gotta have talent. I wouldn’t deny that. But that team would live and die for each other. That 53 wasn’t some great

individuals. They were the best together. Wouldn’t die. Several guys had career seasons. The cohesion. The chemistry. Your missing the beauty of our championship man. The intangibles wouldn’t allow us to give up and lose. 

4 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

You really are bashing Mahomes as he was limping? Terrible point by you. Yes both his T went down to injury. Major factor. Him being injured and immobile while not having an Oline....combination was brutal. Was Wentz limping and injured? Ertz is so much worse than Kelce? Pretty much thinking Mahomes makes guys look good. Can get them to be All Pro. Didn’t see Wentz really elevate anyone. Actually witnessed guys looking better when he went out. Pederson had a better record without Wentz starting. Those are the facts. 
   So heck yeah Mahomes is worth every Penny. Nobody else thought Wentz was. Every team in the league would line up for a trade fit Mahomes. We struggled to get two very desperate teams to offer anything for Wentz. Got a second round pick...next year...for him. That’s what the league thinks of him. Not me. But yeah...I see it too. I wouldn’t trade for Wentz. I wouldn’t give up a future second round pick for him. That’s the guy you love and think is amazing.

Again... did I ever bash Mahomes?   Simply stated the facts.   The team still put up points when he was out, both years.    And he didn't do well when he needed to be " the savior " ...   the " savior " means saving the team from the bad situation.   Which I am consistent that I do not think that is the role of any player in a team sport.. having to win with a bad team.   

I grew up with watching Magic and Bird play for titles.    They were the best players.  But it was obvious their teams were also really good without them.   The idea was which could elevate the already good teams to be the best.    That's what I look for a player to do for my team.   But I need my front office to put that team in place first.    I don't need a " savior" to work miracles.  

4 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

But you never realized what won us that SB. Think it was because we were the greatest team of all time. It was because of the intangibles you giggle about. Yes, you gotta have talent. I wouldn’t deny that. But that team would live and die for each other. That 53 wasn’t some great

individuals. They were the best together. Wouldn’t die. Several guys had career seasons. The cohesion. The chemistry. Your missing the beauty of our championship man. The intangibles wouldn’t allow us to give up and lose. 

Ham.... again.. pay attention. There was no denying by the end, there were intangible stuff that helped.   But be real here.   Look at the roster.  You had top level QB, OL and DL... which teams had all 3?     Then look at our LBs.   Which one was weak?  None.  How many S pairings were better than healthy Jenkins and McCloud?   You had a WR core that didn't have a weak player and natural fits of possession, speed on the outside and shiftyness in the slot.  All stayed healthy to practice all year.  3 TEs that could do all kinds of things.   A RB committee to stay fresh and keep pounding the ball. 

Look around the league... you didn't have teams with all that.  Add in depth with a lot of mediocre guys who were in football prime ages.  That was built over time.  

Sure was there luck with Foles throwing a ball off the ATL defender that bounced to Smith.   Did we get lucky Jax lost to the Pats and then Brown missed curfew and got benched.  Absolutely.    But intangibles don't dominate over an entire season.  Which people seem to forget the entire body of work ...we were best team from start to finish.   Your boy Pedey called it... the talent from the preseason he compared to his SB winning team in Green Bay.  He wasn't comparing intangibles was he?  

I know it makes for less popular soap opera or movie stuff, but reality is sports is pretty boring ... it all starts with talented players.  Like the 2017 Eagles and the Chiefs the last few years.  No savior needed, just a guy to elevate from good/ very good to great. 

11 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Again... did I ever bash Mahomes?   Simply stated the facts.   The team still put up points when he was out, both years.    And he didn't do well when he needed to be " the savior " ...   the " savior " means saving the team from the bad situation.   Which I am consistent that I do not think that is the role of any player in a team sport.. having to win with a bad team.   

I grew up with watching Magic and Bird play for titles.    They were the best players.  But it was obvious their teams were also really good without them.   The idea was which could elevate the already good teams to be the best.    That's what I look for a player to do for my team.   But I need my front office to put that team in place first.    I don't need a " savior" to work miracles.  

Yeah because he was hobbled. But I watched this guy in that sane game. You might know him...Tom Brady. Seems to me I’ve seen him do all of that you don’t need. Also watched Michael Jordan. Allen Iverson. Mike had good teammates. But he also carried the Luc Longleys to glory. Can’t really say the Pats were always the most talented team. But they won. Actually would argue their most talented team didn’t win it all. I never said you have to win with a bad team. But ....really good players elevate those around them. When did Wentz do that? Seems like TB 12 made mediocre guys look great. Put Edelman or Welker elsewhere...we probably wouldn’t even know them. He always made his Oline look good. You can’t tell me you believe the Pats Oline has always been the most talented. Really only had one or two guys I’d say that were special...the whole time. But Brady forces you to be that. Holds you accountable but lifts you up. Wentz didn’t and doesn’t do that. You mess up...you in the doghouse. 

1 minute ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Yeah because he was hobbled. But I watched this guy in that sane game. You might know him...Tom Brady. Seems to me I’ve seen him do all of that you don’t need. Also watched Michael Jordan. Allen Iverson. Mike had good teammates. But he also carried the Luc Longleys to glory. Can’t really say the Pats were always the most talented team. But they won. Actually would argue their most talented team didn’t win it all. I never said you have to win with a bad team. But ....really good players elevate those around them. When did Wentz do that? Seems like TB 12 made mediocre guys look great. Put Edelman or Welker elsewhere...we probably wouldn’t even know them. He always made his Oline look good. You can’t tell me you believe the Pats Oline has always been the most talented. Really only had one or two guys I’d say that were special...the whole time. But Brady forces you to be that. Holds you accountable but lifts you up. Wentz didn’t and doesn’t do that. You mess up...you in the doghouse. 

So Wentz wasn't Tom Brady or Michael Jordan.... so you are disappointed in him?  

To me that's the bar I want for a guy on my team.  I would rather be disappointed in that....then be happy like a pig in S#$t like you are with a guy like Hurts.