11 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Ham.... again.. pay attention. There was no denying by the end, there were intangible stuff that helped.   But be real here.   Look at the roster.  You had top level QB, OL and DL... which teams had all 3?     Then look at our LBs.   Which one was weak?  None.  How many S pairings were better than healthy Jenkins and McCloud?   You had a WR core that didn't have a weak player and natural fits of possession, speed on the outside and shiftyness in the slot.  All stayed healthy to practice all year.  3 TEs that could do all kinds of things.   A RB committee to stay fresh and keep pounding the ball. 

Look around the league... you didn't have teams with all that.  Add in depth with a lot of mediocre guys who were in football prime ages.  That was built over time.  

Sure was there luck with Foles throwing a ball off the ATL defender that bounced to Smith.   Did we get lucky Jax lost to the Pats and then Brown missed curfew and got benched.  Absolutely.    But intangibles don't dominate over an entire season.  Which people seem to forget the entire body of work ...we were best team from start to finish.   Your boy Pedey called it... the talent from the preseason he compared to his SB winning team in Green Bay.  He wasn't comparing intangibles was he?  

I know it makes for less popular soap opera or movie stuff, but reality is sports is pretty boring ... it all starts with talented players.  Like the 2017 Eagles and the Chiefs the last few years.  No savior needed, just a guy to elevate from good/ very good to great. 

Oh yeah...Celek at the end of his career was elite. Mills and Darby shut down corners. Robinson had been elite crap down corner his whole career also. McLeod is the first name you always bring up for best S in the league. Jenkins was let go by the Saints. Wisniwski always considered the best G in the league. Blount and Ajayi are going to the HOF. Torrey Smith hardly did anything after that season. Who was the elite backup T that came in...can’t even remember. Kendricks always a top LB. I mean ....really? We were talented. But nobody was picking us to win it all because of our roster. We weren’t  the favorites. 

Btw... Brady won with great defenses his first few years..    it wasn't until that 2007 team where his game stepped up.   It's nice to look at Welker and Edlemen... but skip over the fact that they had Moss and Gronk to take focus away.   Probably the most underrated position coach in the league, the New England OL coach.   Their system also dealt with getting rid of the ball quickly which Welker and Edlemen excelled at getting open quickly, we never had that guy here.   Agholor excelled in space once he had the ball in his hands and Ertz great possession type receiver when the attention was on the outside. But different systems. 

Jordan .... again, didn't win anything his first 5 years... and convenient to point out Longley and skip over Pippen,Rodman,  Harper, Kokuc...etc.

Lol.... let's take whoever played Center for Golden State and say..." look how Steph won this guy a title" but skip over Durant, Klay and Dramon.... lol.

 

5 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

So Wentz wasn't Tom Brady or Michael Jordan.... so you are disappointed in him?  

To me that's the bar I want for a guy on my team.  I would rather be disappointed in that....then be happy like a pig in S#$t like you are with a guy like Hurts.   

Wentz was the worst in the league. So yeah he wasn’t remotely Brady or Jordan. And yes..,I was extremely disappointed in him. Can’t pay a guy record breaking kind of money to be the worst. That’s how it works. Don’t have the same expectations for everybody. The bar is higher for Fletcher Cox...or Aaron Donald than Ridgeway. We actually paid Wentz crazy money to go play for the Colts. That guy

5 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Oh yeah...Celek at the end of his career was elite. Mills and Darby shut down corners. Robinson had been elite crap down corner his whole career also. McLeod is the first name you always bring up for best S in the league. Jenkins was let go by the Saints. Wisniwski always considered the best G in the league. Blount and Ajayi are going to the HOF. Torrey Smith hardly did anything after that season. Who was the elite backup T that came in...can’t even remember. Kendricks always a top LB. I mean ....really? We were talented. But nobody was picking us to win it all because of our roster. We weren’t  the favorites. 

Yep... 53 guys...   let's point out a couple...  lol.   Did Celek have to be elite?  He was #3 TE... do most teams have a #3 TE that good?  He blocked really well, never dropped anything and still could run with the ball... as a #3 

But let's look just at CB... lol.   Skip over all the other stuff.    Again your boy Pedey said it when looking at the talent.   Unless all the intangibles were already there in August?

2 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Wentz was the worst in the league. So yeah he wasn’t remotely Brady or Jordan. And yes..,I was extremely disappointed in him. Can’t pay a guy record breaking kind of money to be the worst. That’s how it works. Don’t have the same expectations for everybody. The bar is higher for Fletcher Cox...or Aaron Donald than Ridgeway. We actually paid Wentz crazy money to go play for the Colts. That guy

Who has record breaking money?

Steve Kerr was average at best. Really just hit threes and was a liability on defense. Was great with Jordan. Who did Wentz make great and elevate? Maybe Ertz. Really don’t even believe that. Isn’t that what great or leaders do?

3 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Wentz was the worst in the league. So yeah he wasn’t remotely Brady or Jordan. And yes..,I was extremely disappointed in him. Can’t pay a guy record breaking kind of money to be the worst. That’s how it works. Don’t have the same expectations for everybody. The bar is higher for Fletcher Cox...or Aaron Donald than Ridgeway. We actually paid Wentz crazy money to go play for the Colts. That guy

So let's use Cox and Aaron Donald.   Let's say Donald had 3 guys on his DL that were practice squad guys.  Cox played next to Reggie White, Clyde Simmons and Jerome Brown... is it safe to say Cox probably produces better?

Again... you do you bro. For me, never need a savior.  Don't care how a player performs for a bad team.    Simply want a guy to win when the opportunity is there.  I want my front office to give that guy an opportunity. That part comes first.

1 minute ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Steve Kerr was average at best. Really just hit threes and was a liability on defense. Was great with Jordan. Who did Wentz make great and elevate? Maybe Ertz. Really don’t even believe that. Isn’t that what great or leaders do?

Hurts will do it.  Look ar how the WRs exploded under him....lol

1 hour ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

UH, they also have a bevy of RB's(and they can all catch)

A true WC offense running on all cylinders when they're in sync. 

2 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Steve Kerr was average at best. Really just hit threes and was a liability on defense. Was great with Jordan. Who did Wentz make great and elevate? Maybe Ertz. Really don’t even believe that. Isn’t that what great or leaders do?

Very simple...   Wentz made the 2017 team elite from start all the way until he got injured toward the end.     That will be what he gets judged for this year.   Nobody cares about stats... can he elevate Indy from the 7th seed, that's it.

And the big thing we disagree.. and you keep making my point by using Jordan , Brady ...etc.   the first step is getting adequate players, those guys like Welker,  Edlemen, Kerr, Longley... they were absolutely adequate to even a little better....  you are saying you are mad at Wentz for not doing it with last year's garbage... that by the way kept rotating in and out?   Lol

4 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Yep... 53 guys...   let's point out a couple...  lol.   Did Celek have to be elite?  He was #3 TE... do most teams have a #3 TE that good?  He blocked really well, never dropped anything and still could run with the ball... as a #3 

But let's look just at CB... lol.   Skip over all the other stuff.    Again your boy Pedey said it when looking at the talent.   Unless all the intangibles were already there in August?

Who has record breaking money?

Point out a couple. I named half our starters in the SB. 

Again.. to sum up.   

Me = start with decent talent then worry about how the guy helps them win.

Ham = can this guy make bad players , really bad players into not so bad players.  But let's not worry about actually trying to win anything?

8 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

So let's use Cox and Aaron Donald.   Let's say Donald had 3 guys on his DL that were practice squad guys.  Cox played next to Reggie White, Clyde Simmons and Jerome Brown... is it safe to say Cox probably produces better?

Again... you do you bro. For me, never need a savior.  Don't care how a player performs for a bad team.    Simply want a guy to win when the opportunity is there.  I want my front office to give that guy an opportunity. That part comes first.

Hurts will do it.  Look ar how the WRs exploded under him....lol

Seems to me Hurts and Wentz have the same  amount of playoff victories. Or is winning in the postseason irrelevant? Actually coming up big...in the big games. Go ahead and describe all of Wentz brilliance in the big games he won.

1 minute ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Point out a couple. I named half our starters in the SB. 

Lol...  but...." those guys were not elite"

Very simple exercise here.

Tell me teams who had elite QBs in 2017.    From that list tell me teams who had elite DLs .  From there tell me of those teams who had elite OLs.

From there... compare the S and LBs from the remaining teams.    

Then you can look at the skill positions from the remaining groups.  

Which teams are left?  

5 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Very simple...   Wentz made the 2017 team elite from start all the way until he got injured toward the end.     That will be what he gets judged for this year.   Nobody cares about stats... can he elevate Indy from the 7th seed, that's it.

And the big thing we disagree.. and you keep making my point by using Jordan , Brady ...etc.   the first step is getting adequate players, those guys like Welker,  Edlemen, Kerr, Longley... they were absolutely adequate to even a little better....  you are saying you are mad at Wentz for not doing it with last year's garbage... that by the way kept rotating in and out?   Lol

Never was stating that. Nice try. Try and turn the argument to put words in my mouth. I simply asked so you believe Wentz will be better than a QB that decided he was washed up and had to retire. You avoiding this question only brings us to the same conclusion.

4 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Again.. to sum up.   

Me = start with decent talent then worry about how the guy helps them win.

Ham = can this guy make bad players , really bad players into not so bad players.  But let's not worry about actually trying to win anything?

You talking about Foles?

2 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Seems to me Hurts and Wentz have the same  amount of playoff victories. Or is winning in the postseason irrelevant? Actually coming up big...in the big games. Go ahead and describe all of Wentz brilliance in the big games he won.

Yeah... it's why this year is important for Indy to win in the playoffs,  not to compare Wentz and Rivers stats!

I don’t think Foles is great. But he did have an incredible season early on for us. He did win a SB. The next season he took a team Wentz lead to a terrible record into the playoffs remarkably...and won a playoff game. But I’ll give Wentz that he did manage a tie against the Bengals. So proud.

1 minute ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Never was stating that. Nice try. Try and turn the argument to put words in my mouth. I simply asked so you believe Wentz will be better than a QB that decided he was washed up and had to retire. You avoiding this question only brings us to the same conclusion.

 

Idk... seems like you were saying Brady and Jordan elevated bad players... I was saying they were already at least decent.   Wentz had bad, really bad inexperienced players who were in and out of the lineup all season, with no camp etc.  Hard to elevate that into anything.

I think I have stated enough that Indy will be better with Wentz than Rivers... 7th seed mediocre ... and losing their LT.  Yes, I think Wentz makes Indy better and why I say that perception will change in a year. Been kinda saying it for months now.

4 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

I don’t think Foles is great. But he did have an incredible season early on for us. He did win a SB. The next season he took a team Wentz lead to a terrible record into the playoffs remarkably...and won a playoff game. But I’ll give Wentz that he did manage a tie against the Bengals. So proud.

Yeah.... but there is where your intangibles kicks in..... Foles is able to win with 16 points and an opposing kicker miss a FG.... Wentz due to his lack of intangibles, has his guys go offsides and take them out of FG range.     That's all QB play right there.

7 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

I don’t think Foles is great. But he did have an incredible season early on for us. He did win a SB. The next season he took a team Wentz lead to a terrible record into the playoffs remarkably...and won a playoff game. But I’ll give Wentz that he did manage a tie against the Bengals. So proud.

Remember that play vs the Saints.   Originally we thought Foles under threw a wide open Ertz that would have given the Eagles a 21-0 lead .... but after you thought about it more, it was simply genius play by the Saints CB to make Ertz have the 7 yard cushion .. bating Foles into making the bad throw.     Intangibles.   

2 hours ago, cunninghamtheman said:

ATL didn’t have offensive struggles. They have no defense. Don’t see anything your saying fixing them winning. They gotta get some D or Matty Ice can’t save them. Did you see them at all last season? They just got out scored...like every week.

Matty Ice isn't a savior either.   Which QB is a savior that will make a bad team win anything?    

But I bet Matty Ice will have decent stats due to good teammates catching the ball.  Wonder how well he would have done on the 2020 Eagles?   Lol.

32 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Yeah... it's why this year is important for Indy to win in the playoffs,  not to compare Wentz and Rivers stats!

Exactly why you are avoiding the bet or even answering. Because you obviously agree and know Wentz will not outperform s guy that was washed up and retired. You don’t even have to take the bet. Your answer is obvious by your avoidance.

26 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Yeah.... but there is where your intangibles kicks in..... Foles is able to win with 16 points and an opposing kicker miss a FG.... Wentz due to his lack of intangibles, has his guys go offsides and take them out of FG range.     That's all QB play right there.

Exactly what you’re relying on in Indy. You refuse to say Wentz will play better than the washed up guy they had last year. 

Colts were what? 11-5 with a QB that his arm gave out. Ok let’s see how much Wentz elevates them.

20 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Matty Ice isn't a savior either.   Which QB is a savior that will make a bad team win anything?    

But I bet Matty Ice will have decent stats due to good teammates catching the ball.  Wonder how well he would have done on the 2020 Eagles?   Lol.

Matty Ice couldn’t help the Falcons win....but he wasn’t why they lost. Played really well on a bad team. Unlike your boy

1 hour ago, joemas6 said:

Remember that play vs the Saints.   Originally we thought Foles under threw a wide open Ertz that would have given the Eagles a 21-0 lead .... but after you thought about it more, it was simply genius play by the Saints CB to make Ertz have the 7 yard cushion .. bating Foles into making the bad throw.     Intangibles.   

You mean the throw Foles made leading the team down the field to sure victory for the playoff win that was perfect to Alshon but he knocked it up in the air for a game sealing interception. Yeah, that was heart breaking.

16 hours ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Is Horn really of that level? Or did he get pushed up because Farley had back surgery? Seemed like he was an early second rounder at the end of the season.

They actually have horn as a better chance of being a Pro Bowl player....