Many believe this meeting was about another insurrection on or near August 13th. A meeting with what cabinet members?

 

1 hour ago, VanHammersly said:

I’d be surprised if that explained much of anything. I’m sure there are plenty of local police that are inept as well. 

There are inept law enforcement officials in every organization to be sure. Whether they are  Federal, State, or Local doesn't matter. Dave was asking about an apparent widespread disconnect between the FBI and others. In my experience there was one, and it was based in what I described. Perhaps it has changed for the better over time. Others may have dramatically different experiences with the FBI. I accept that, because I can't comment on the rest of the country's experiences with them. To be honest, I hope the relationships between organizations are stronger and more productive than ever.

38 minutes ago, PoconoDon said:

There are inept law enforcement officials in every organization to be sure. Whether they are  Federal, State, or Local doesn't matter. Dave was asking about an apparent widespread disconnect between the FBI and others. In my experience there was one, and it was based in what I described. Perhaps it has changed for the better over time. Others may have dramatically different experiences with the FBI. I accept that, because I can't comment on the rest of the country's experiences with them. To be honest, I hope the relationships between organizations are stronger and more productive than ever.

Right but if there is ineptitude in both the FBI and local organizations then incompetence doesn’t have anything to do with the right’s hostility towards the FBI. In reality, the reason they don’t like the FBI is that A) it’s federal and the right tends to be skeptical of most federal agencies and B) because Trump hates the FBI and the Republicans are more of a cult then a political party. 

1 hour ago, VanHammersly said:

Right but if there is ineptitude in both the FBI and local organizations then incompetence doesn’t have anything to do with the right’s hostility towards the FBI. In reality, the reason they don’t like the FBI is that A) it’s federal and the right tends to be skeptical of most federal agencies and B) because Trump hates the FBI and the Republicans are more of a cult then a political party. 

Your opinion is noted.

11 hours ago, DrPhilly said:

Yeah, I was the poster calling in real time for the Capitol Police to shoot the insurrectionists but we can conveniently forget that little detail.

I argue with a co-worker about this. He believes the capitol police ought to have shot the hell out of the insurrectionists. 

This is a rural dude who had family there mind you. He's not a Trumplican and is embarrassed his family was there, but he also is in no way a liberal. He voted for Jorgenson. 

I argue that if the police had actually responded with strong force on a broad level that it would have created a lot of martyrs for the Trump camp to rally around, and would have driven a narrative that they were the victims here of government overreach and that it's just more evidence of how they are justified.

I think a stronger reaction by police, assuming they weren't overwhelmed given the disparity in numbers, would have fed a narrative that the reaction was disproportionate to "a small number of zealous supporters", which would have been ridiculous sounding to most but eaten up by Trump supporters.

The FBI angle is insane. Regardless of the aptitude of individual FBI agents, the argument is purely political in nature. The Trump apologists have found a specious way to tie the FBI to the insurrection and that's all they need, because once "the government" is involved in any way it's bound to the "deep state" and his moronic base will believe it's part of a grand conspiracy to bring down Trump.

People are freaking stupid. That's the main issue.

Just now, JohnSnowsHair said:

The FBI angle is insane. Regardless of the aptitude of individual FBI agents, the argument is purely political in nature. The Trump apologists have found a specious way to tie the FBI to the insurrection and that's all they need, because once "the government" is involved in any way it's bound to the "deep state" and his moronic base will believe it's part of a grand conspiracy to bring down Trump.

People are freaking stupid. That's the main issue.

Just look at this board. Only one guy is pushing the FBI thing here as far as I can see, and he happens to be the biggest loser idiot here.

On 7/29/2021 at 1:53 PM, SPIDER-MAN said:

He's going to be the first to sing. He's already said the White House made him say what he said. MAGA will destroy him once he throws 45 under the bus.

So let me guess, He's not a Republican any more, now he's a Rhino or a Pelosi Republican. 

 

15 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

I argue with a co-worker about this. He believes the capitol police ought to have shot the hell out of the insurrectionists. 

This is a rural dude who had family there mind you. He's not a Trumplican and is embarrassed his family was there, but he also is in no way a liberal. He voted for Jorgenson. 

I argue that if the police had actually responded with strong force on a broad level that it would have created a lot of martyrs for the Trump camp to rally around, and would have driven a narrative that they were the victims here of government overreach and that it's just more evidence of how they are justified.

I think a stronger reaction by police, assuming they weren't overwhelmed given the disparity in numbers, would have fed a narrative that the reaction was disproportionate to "a small number of zealous supporters", which would have been ridiculous sounding to most but eaten up by Trump supporters.

In this Country the Government is not supposed to shoot unarmed civilians. If they had been displaying guns, then it would be Justified. I know they had other weapons or tools, like flag poles, crutches, sticks, etc. The police showed great restraint in not making it any more violent than it was. However, one could also argue that the police were in fear for their lives and would be justified in using deadly force. I'm glad they didn't and for some of the reasons you stated. This would be a rallying cry for them.

 

Had the police opened fire, it would have dispersed many, but those intent on violence, would have overwhelmed the police even more than they were. A gun battle would probably ensue. 

10 hours ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

I argue with a co-worker about this. He believes the capitol police ought to have shot the hell out of the insurrectionists. 

This is a rural dude who had family there mind you. He's not a Trumplican and is embarrassed his family was there, but he also is in no way a liberal. He voted for Jorgenson. 

I argue that if the police had actually responded with strong force on a broad level that it would have created a lot of martyrs for the Trump camp to rally around, and would have driven a narrative that they were the victims here of government overreach and that it's just more evidence of how they are justified.

I think a stronger reaction by police, assuming they weren't overwhelmed given the disparity in numbers, would have fed a narrative that the reaction was disproportionate to "a small number of zealous supporters", which would have been ridiculous sounding to most but eaten up by Trump supporters.

Maybe I was wrong but that was my thought at the time. When your castle is under attack you defend it.

I'm not so sure about the potential negative aspects of using stronger measures.  It was risky either way.  They were pretty close to actually physically reaching several of the Congressmen, etc.  Your point is a good one though to consider and you may very well be right.

On 7/31/2021 at 6:51 PM, JohnSnowsHair said:

I argue that if the police had actually responded with strong force on a broad level that it would have created a lot of martyrs

They really only need one though and they’ve already got her

 

https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7bkkd/third-dc-police-officer-suicide-gunther-hashida

 

A police officer who helped stop the Capitol riot has died by suicide, making him the third officer who served on that day to take his own life in the aftermath.

Washington Metropolitan Police Department officer Gunther Hashida died on July 29, the MPD confirmed in a statement.

"Officer Gunther Hashida, assigned to the Emergency Response Team within the Special Operations Division, was found deceased in his residence on Thursday, July 29,” the MPD said in a statement. "We are grieving as a Department as our thoughts and prayers are with Officer Hashida’s family and friends. 

Hashida, who joined the department in 2003, is the third officer to die by suicide after the tragic day, joining D.C. MPD officer Jeffrey Smith and U.S. Capitol officer Howard Liebengood, who both killed themselves soon after January 6.

Hashida’s death comes less than a week after multiple officers testified about the horrific violence, racial slurs, and trauma they faced as a mob of violent insurrectionists who supported President Trump attacked the Capitol on Jan. 6. Multiple officers testified that they’d suffered both lingering physical pain and ongoing psychological problems including post-traumatic stress disorder in the wake of the attacks.

 

On 8/1/2021 at 3:36 AM, DrPhilly said:

Maybe I was wrong but that was my thought at the time. When your castle is under attack you defend it.

I'm not so sure about the potential negative aspects of using stronger measures.  It was risky either way.  They were pretty close to actually physically reaching several of the Congressmen, etc.  Your point is a good one though to consider and you may very well be right.

The Capitol Police were outnumbered 1000 to 1. Shooting at them would be futile. Yeah, they'd take out a few insurrectionists but the numbers don't favor Capitol Police. It would have been a bloodbath. Hundreds would have been shot. The insurrectionists planned ahead, they knew the effort it would take to break through the security lines into the Capitol, they had the upper hand. Where they failed is they had no plan to hold the Capitol once it was breached.

Clearly, the security for the Vice President and Congressman were under different orders. As close as the rioters got to Congress, I am surprised not more people were shot.

8 minutes ago, toolg said:

The Capitol Police were outnumbered 1000 to 1. Shooting at them would be futile. Yeah, they'd take out a few insurrectionists but the numbers don't favor Capitol Police. It would have been a bloodbath. Hundreds would have been shot. The insurrectionists planned ahead, they knew the effort it would take to break through the security lines into the Capitol, they had the upper hand. Where they failed is they had no plan to hold the Capitol once it was breached.

Clearly, the security for the Vice President and Congressman were under different orders. As close as the rioters got to Congress, I am surprised not more people were shot.

This was the heat of the moment.  No one knew how many were on either side at that point and I fully expected there to be lots of police and reinforcements on the way.   I certainly didn't expect the police force(s) / Nat Guard to be unprepared and not ready to bring in help.

7 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

This was the heat of the moment.  No one knew how many were on either side at that point and I fully expected there to be lots of police and reinforcements on the way.   I certainly didn't expect the police force(s) / Nat Guard to be unprepared and not ready to bring in help.

You can bet the police knew how outnumbered they were, especially once it became clear no help was coming.

Just now, Toastrel said:

You can bet the police knew how outnumbered they were, especially once it became clear no help was coming.

For sure but I'm talking about the posters in here and others watching in from afar.

7 hours ago, toolg said:

Where they failed is they had no plan to hold the Capitol once it was breached.

 

I'm just wondering what the actual plan was (if they even had one I doubt it).  

"OK, were going to bust in, make them hold a vote making Trump king  again, and then we all just chill out and leave and go to work the next morning!"

This is literally what some of them were thinking.

7 hours ago, Eaglesfandan said:

I'm just wondering what the actual plan was (if they even had one I doubt it).  

"OK, were going to bust in, make them hold a vote making Trump king  again, and then we all just chill out and leave and go to work the next morning!"

This is literally what some of them were thinking.

Yes. Nutty rioters thought they could break into a joint session of Congress and halt the vote like they were some kind of heroes. Like they had some authority to do it. I don't know what they were thinking.

But overall, I think the plan was to create chaos. They wanted to see what kind of force could break through the barriers of security, they planned ahead, and I'm sure they took notes. Maybe they didn't think they would get all the way through to the Capitol? Will they try again? All they wanted was chaos, and they got it.

4 minutes ago, toolg said:

Yes. Nutty rioters thought they could break into a joint session of Congress and halt the vote like they were some kind of heroes. Like they had some authority to do it. I don't know what they were thinking.

But overall, I think the plan was to create chaos. They wanted to see what kind of force could break through the barriers of security, they planned ahead, and I'm sure they took notes. Maybe they didn't think they would get all the way through to the Capitol? Will they try again? All they wanted was chaos, and they got it.

They stop the certification, Trump gets his stooges in the DOJ to call the election corrupt, and our Democratic Republic turns into a third world crap hole.

8 hours ago, Eaglesfandan said:

I'm just wondering what the actual plan was (if they even had one I doubt it).  

"OK, were going to bust in, make them hold a vote making Trump king  again, and then we all just chill out and leave and go to work the next morning!"

This is literally what some of them were thinking.

Yeah they probably thought after Trump was made king they would all be pardoned or even awarded for their service to him. You have to realize that the thing with blind cult followers is they are not able to think logically, they just impulsively say and do things.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

 

1 hour ago, toolg said:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

 

Because he wasn’t black ?

3 hours ago, toolg said:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

 

While Tucker tickles Orban's taint in Hungary, whose democratic institutions have eroded under his leadership and whose citizens have fewer rights and with virtually no independent media that the Right is now lurching towards. 

So we now choose between a party that flirts with socialism and a party that openly dances with wannabe fascists. 

A big 🖕to the party that forces me to choose the Democrats because "at least they're not trending towards fascism"

McCarthy didn’t answer the question. 

2 minutes ago, toolg said:

McCarthy didn’t answer the question. 

To be fair, he didn't have time to check with the Don of Mar-a-Lago.