If we draft the wrong QB in 2022, that's a 3-5 year mistake that will take down a GM and 1-2 HCs (leaving aside the sarcasm about it being worth it to take down Howie).

If you stack up on team talent, you increase the margin for error at QB (a bit).  And I would gladly wait 1-2 years for the right QB, rather than burn half a decade on the wrong one before getting another chance.

7 minutes ago, schuy7 said:

Fields and Lance are examples of QBs who teams took hoping they would work out. That's what gets team into trouble. Both have severe mechanical flaws to overcome to become good NFL passers. The jump they have to take is massive and unlikely. 

That’s tough to say. I think the Niners believed that Trey Lance could be a great quarterback in Kyle Shanahan’s system. I don’t think you make that move up to three unless you believed Trey Lance could be the franchise quarterback going forward. I also think the 49ers believed they were a Super Bowl contender and if they got the right quarterback that they loved that they could take the next step where Jimmy Garoppolo couldn’t take them. If you want to say the 49ers were debating between Jones and Lance so they didn’t really have a preference until they had to make the pick OK. But I think they knew the entire time what they were doing moving up from 12 to 3 to get the quarterback they felt could be the franchise quarterback that Jimmy G couldn’t be

The Bears with fields I think they wanted to take him the whole time they just didn’t think they would be able to move up high enough to get fields. There were rumors that they were trying to move up to 6-9 to get fields and they finally were able to do it when the Eagles jump the Giants and then the Giants wanted to move back because we took the player.

I think the Bears you can make the case more about what you’re saying because some of the people in that organization trying to save their jobs and hope that he was the savior. I think the Niners believed he was good enough to be a franchise quarterback and that’s why they made that move

5 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

There is wisdom in Afan's argument.  Granted, I believe he's making it simply because that is the hand the Eagles have been dealt and he's fluffing the approach they will take.  But still, there is reason to take it.

If you have a top 10 pick or have access to obtaining one and there is an incredible QB prospect, by all means, pull the trigger.  For reference, IMO, that doesn't apply to ANYONE in the 2021 draft besides Trevor Lawrence, with no due respect to Zach Wilson.  You simply do not draft guys like Baker Mayfield or Mark Sanchez in that range just because they are the (arguably) best prospects in a bad crop.  And that is exactly what some team(s) will do with the 2022 QB class.  Let's not be one of them.

I'd rather continuously hit the position in the mid-rounds with solid frame, strong-armed, smart passers with natural releases who might not have found themselves in the right situation to ring up hype inducing stats behind NFL quality OL's throwing to 1st round WRs.

Again, if you have a shot at a generational prospect...sure...take it.  But the best QB's generally come into more talented situations because their teams didn't mortgage everything just to get them.  And I don't want to overpay for some QB who was simply a cog in an SEC machine that turns anyone that can spin a spiral into a heisman candidate.

Mark Sanchez falls into the "build the team first then draft a guy” argument. 

46 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

Mark Sanchez falls into the "build the team first then draft a guy” argument. 

Could also make Paxton lynch of the broncos into that after Manning retired.  I would also point out it wasn’t exactly like the Eagles were some built up roster when they drafted Donovan McNabb. They didn’t have a really great built up roster when they drafted  McNabb. then brought in some players. They had unproven trotter coming off his rookie year. The most proven players they had were  Dawkins (wasn’t what he was under reid yet), Taylor, Vincent, tra Thomas, Duce and Mayberry. They had some good building blocks but they didn’t have the defensive line nor the entirety of their oline. Nor very good WRs. And one safety in dawk. There’s a reason they were 3-13 the year before. Everett was at the end of his career. Their best defensive lineman was holis Thomas. And Willie t left a year later and James darling, fryer, Gardner and zordich left the year reid took over. They took mcnabb because they saw him as a franchise changer. 

If you identify a potential franchise QB, you simply cannot pass on him unless you already have one. Simple as that.

2 hours ago, LeanMeanGM said:

Ok that was a taunting

"Got sent to a worse team”. They are calling the Jets worse than the Eagles 

I just caught that.  I'm a moron....read it wrong 😄

1 hour ago, eagle45 said:

Mayfield isn’t good enough.  I’m not sure I’m a Murray believer yet.

Hurts should be a RB in the nfl and he was nearly as good in Oklahoma’s offense as the above two number one overall picks.  That should tell you all you need to know about how reliable it is to evaluate QBs in that offense.

I went back and watched Hurts highlights from Oklahoma the other day just to refresh my memory of what he looked like.  He made some nice throws hitting guys in stride but it was mostly him throwing to wide open WRs, mostly Lamb, and him running around for big gains.

There's a report out that top coaching candidates won't even interview here because of Howie. Who's shocked?

59 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

Mark Sanchez falls into the "build the team first then draft a guy” argument. 

Not really; the Jets just forced the pick in one of the worst QB draft classes in NFL history.  Josh Freeman and Pat White were the next 2 QBs taken in that draft.  The following draft wasn’t any better with Sam Bradford going #1 overall and Tim Tebow the second QB off the board.  
 

If the talent pool isn’t there it’s harder to find that QB piece, but building the roster first is 1000% the correct approach.  An established QB uses up too much of the cap unless a team has entry-level draft picks making huge contributions elsewhere 
 

 

1 hour ago, ManuManu said:

The Bears, Dolphins, Niners and Seahawks all traded away their first round pick in 2022. Yikes. 

The Seahawks are the worst of that bunch by a country mile. 

1 hour ago, eagle45 said:

If we draft the wrong QB in 2022, that's a 3-5 year mistake that will take down a GM and 1-2 HCs (leaving aside the sarcasm about it being worth it to take down Howie).

If you stack up on team talent, you increase the margin for error at QB (a bit).  And I would gladly wait 1-2 years for the right QB, rather than burn half a decade on the wrong one before getting another chance.

Willing to wait 3 for Caleb Williams? Lol

7 minutes ago, Outlaw said:

The Seahawks are the worst of that bunch by a country mile. 

Willing to wait 3 for Caleb Williams? Lol

There’s also a good chance Russell Wilson asks to be trade this offseason. At least they’d get picks back then 

1 hour ago, Alphagrand said:

Not really; the Jets just forced the pick in one of the worst QB draft classes in NFL history.  Josh Freeman and Pat White were the next 2 QBs taken in that draft.  The following draft wasn’t any better with Sam Bradford going #1 overall and Tim Tebow the second QB off the board.  
 

If the talent pool isn’t there it’s harder to find that QB piece, but building the roster first is 1000% the correct approach.  An established QB uses up too much of the cap unless a team has entry-level draft picks making huge contributions elsewhere 
 

 

That’s the point. Just because you build the roster first doesn’t mean you don’t end up reaching later on. He absolutely falls into building the roster first and then getting your QB second. There isn’t a fool proof approach to this. You evaluate the QB’s and then take one at any point you feel comfortable regardless of the roster. 

2 hours ago, austinfan said:

Oh sure. Every team that drafts a QB high knows what they're doing. It's not rocket science, it's just that teams miss on 2 out of 3.

2021:  Lawrence (1), Wilson (2), Lance (3), Fields (11), Jones (15), Jones is the only one playing decently, but you have to question his upside

2020:  Burrow (1), Tua (5), Herbert (6)

2019:  Murray (1), D Jones (6), Haskins (15) - Murray probably wouldn't be nearly as successful in any other scheme

2018:  Mayfield (1), Darnold (3), Allen (7), Rosen (10)

2017:  Trubisky (2), Mahomes (10), Watson (12)

2016:  Goff (1), Wentz (2)

2015:  Winston (1), Mariota (2)

2014:  Bortles (3)

2013:  Manuel (16)

2012:  Luck (1), RG III (2) Tannehill (8)

2011:  Newton (1), Locker (8), Gabbert (10), Ponder (12)

It’s very rare for a QB to have a higher Completion percentage in the NFL, than they do at college, it doesn’t happen, except for Dak Prescott and Josh Allen.  Which is why completion % matters and is a translatable stat to the NFL, so is YPA, just in a different metric.    
 Daniel Jones was way over drafted because his coach is buddies with the Mannings and they convinced the Giants that Jones was Eli.  
 Eli has an NFL career 60 comp % and take into account that his most accurate year by far was in 2018 at 66%, he had a few years at 63%, and the rest weren’t great.   
 
Haskins was 70 comp % in college, but like most QB’s from Ohio St, he failed. That should of been taken care of by your teams scouts and investigators calling his friends, teachers and janitors from high school to get info on his character.  Janitors know everything including if you are smart enough to wipe your ass, and wash your hands after using the restroom. 

 Trubisky was a one year starter at NC, 13 games, another overdraft, in the same way Lance was over drafted. Lance threw a total of 317 passes at ND, Trubisky threw 447 in the only year he started.   Lance could win 17 Super Bowls, still over drafted, way, over drafted.   

Mac Jones, Alabama, over drafted but not like Lance is another one that started what 17 games in his college career?  Yes 2020 was an amazing year, but he’s still an Alabama QB, at some point it’s not a coincidence that Alabama QBs struggle in the NFL, see Ohio St.    If Jones is gonna be successful, it’s in large part due to Belichick, and that O line. 

Tua’s arm as of last year was awful, now his release is one of the quickest since Marino, but he’s got nothing behind it, plus he’s from Alabama, over drafted.   You draft an injured player in the top 10 without seeing how they perform after a dislocated hip?  Who has even done that, plus fractured it??  Bo Jackson maybe?   

Kyler Murray is basically another one year starter like Jones, his one year was phenomenal 69 comp %, and like Jones his YA metrics are really good.  He was also drafted to play baseball, he isn’t a running QB that can throw, he’s a throwing QB that can run.  He is a BMF.   If he comes out when Russel Wilson did, he’s probably a late 2nd round pick because of his height, maybe later.  Put him in KC, he’s successful, same for GB,  New England, and New Orleans. 

 

3 hours ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

What does the bolded mean?  

The only QBs worth drafting that high.

The others flopped or had serious issues (wouldn't touch Watson, Wentz had one great season, can't stay healthy, etc.

11 hours ago, austinfan said:

It amazes me how people are surprised that a bad team is a bad team.

I think most people had this team ticketed for a 2-7 record through the first nine games, then 3-5 or 4-4 or so for the last eight when the schedule got easier.

And that was before the OL became the walking wounded and Graham went down for the year.

Hurts sucks, but so do Fields, Wilson, Lawrence, Tua, D Jones, Haskins - of the QBs taken in the top 15 the last three years,Murray (#1), Burrows (#1), Herbert (#6) are the only solid starters right now, M Jones is passable.

Imagine if Howie used a top ten pick on one of these six QBs that are currently sucking the big one.

#53 did not doom this franchise.

At least we're probably going to have two top ten picks and a pick in the 15-20 range, a high second, and a bunch of middle round picks.

Now imagine if you're a Dolphin fan.

It amazes us how you can stand up for the guy that orchestrated said bad team. Point is we don't want to have a bad team Howie Jr.

7 hours ago, D-Shiznit said:

Take Burrow off the Bengals and insert Hurts in, they become a 1 win team and Chase averages 45 rec yards a game.

QB and HC is everything in this league, the rest are just spare parts.

This sounds like Howie's thought pattern. QB and HC are very important but so is the talent level of the skill players, the linemen, the d backs, linebackers, ect.

8 hours ago, justrelax said:

Afan’s takes are many things but never moronic. I cannot say the same of yours or mine.

They can be overly apologetic on behalf of Howie's interests and therefore often contradictory.

For example, Howie has done a good job, but the team shouldn't be competitive until after 2023.

Or, Howie was the victim of bad luck, and now the team has to wait three seasons to dig out of the salary cap hole.

 

Its been said that good luck is the intersection of preparation and opportunity.  I wonder what bad luck would be the intersection of... 🤔  maybe ineptitude and desperation?

7 hours ago, austinfan said:

Which is why I hate drafting QBs until you build the team. If you have a talented team, a young QB is less likely to fail, we'll see if Lawrence and Wilson survive their teams.

Look at the top QBs, Rodgers was drafting in the 20s, Brady 6th rd, Brees a trade, Mahomes #10. Look at Stafford in LA v Detroit. Or Goff in Detroit v LA. Or Tannehill. Do you think Mahomes would have been successful going to a bad team and starting as a rookie, v going to KC and sitting for a season?

Reaching for a QB at the top of the draft is a fool's errand.

 

Well, if we are cherry picking only the ones that work out, versus the multitude of non top 10 QBs that bomb in the NFL, let's look at Elway, Aikman, Manning (both of them), Bradshaw... all #1 overall picks, and all multiple Super Bowl Champions.  Seems the success rate might lean more towards the overall #1 pick to a higher degree of success than picking a QB at any other spot, because for every Drew Brees in the 2nd round you have a dozen guys like Jalen Hurts or Tony Banks.  For every third round success, there's a Bobby Hoying... for every Tom Brady in Round 6, you have the Calyton Thorson's of the NFL that wash out in training camp.

6 hours ago, ManuManu said:

The Bears, Dolphins, Niners and Seahawks all traded away their first round pick in 2022. Yikes. 

Dolphins are a wash though, they got a pick back... not sure which will end up higher though.

7 hours ago, eagle45 said:

There is wisdom in Afan's argument.  Granted, I believe he's making it simply because that is the hand the Eagles have been dealt and he's fluffing the approach they will take.  But still, there is reason to take it.

The flip side to that is that it is very unlikely that a 'pre-built team' can just get into a position to draft the right QB once that's done.  Those teams end up in NFL purgatory, picking in the teens and need a team like Cleveland to screw up their own evaluation and be willing to trade back with you, just like happened with the Eagles jumping up to land Wentz.  Oh, this team did that already... and then they ruined the relationship by being complete buffoons after that, leaving the team in the position to need to do it all over again just 5 seasons later.  Who was responsible for that?  Oh..yeah.  Howard.

6 hours ago, eagle45 said:

If we draft the wrong QB in 2022, that's a 3-5 year mistake that will take down a GM and 1-2 HCs (leaving aside the sarcasm about it being worth it to take down Howie).

If you stack up on team talent, you increase the margin for error at QB (a bit).  And I would gladly wait 1-2 years for the right QB, rather than burn half a decade on the wrong one before getting another chance.

Well, did that not already happen here?  I've got no reason to rush the QB decision.  You don't go to a vegan restaurant and order 'the steak' and then act surprised when its not what you were expecting.  But, looking for that steak dinner is what every GM without a steak dinner in front of them already has to do.  But, the good GMs know how to identify a steak dinner from the impossible Whopper.

6 hours ago, 315Eagles said:

I went back and watched Hurts highlights from Oklahoma the other day just to refresh my memory of what he looked like.  He made some nice throws hitting guys in stride but it was mostly him throwing to wide open WRs, mostly Lamb, and him running around for big gains.

Big 12 defenses... its like playing against the Eagles' D.

How fast will afan flip flop if Howie drafts a QB early? 

"Howie saw a guy he liked and made sure he got him. If you have a QB that you have a high grade on, you take him. Can't win without a QB in this league and Howie knows this."

Does no one else see this coming? I sure do.

5 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Big 12 defenses... its like playing against the Eagles' D.

3-3-5 defense… I’m sure Gannon has rolled it out this year.

7 hours ago, 315Eagles said:

I went back and watched Hurts highlights from Oklahoma the other day just to refresh my memory of what he looked like.  He made some nice throws hitting guys in stride but it was mostly him throwing to wide open WRs, mostly Lamb, and him running around for big gains.

That's the OU offense.  They are just that much more talented than their competition (in a league that plays no defense) and then living off of broken plays.