45 minutes ago, austinfan said:

Read carefully:

"Sadly, this week we have 3 more notifications of death. Any possibility of a causal link is investigated as part of our routine investigations and no new safety concerns with the Comirnaty vaccine were raised by these reports."

If you give millions of vaccines, a few people will die after administrating the vaccine. That doesn't mean the vaccine was necessarily the reason they died. If I injected saline solution odds are one or two of millions will die, just b/c of the law of large numbers. In the case of that NZ woman, other factors were noted.

The biggest problem is with really rare events, it's difficult to determine statistically if those deaths can be linked to the vaccine.

This doesn't mean the vaccines are 100% safe, nothing is 100% safe in this world, including breathing and eating.

But I doubt any medical treatment in history has been as closely monitored in real-time as these vaccines. Partially because of the potential for mischief, partially b/c we now have the technology to do so (amass and analyze large quantities of data quickly), partially because of politics.

The risk from COVID, not just instant mortality, but long-term damage (we know long-haulers is a real syndrome to some extent, how prevalent remains to be seen, but preliminary studies show a sizable segment of the infected population has damage from COVID which may reduce life expectancy).

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1111/apa.15673

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10408363.2020.1860895

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3769978

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m2815.long

Cost Benefit

https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/abs/10.1377/hlthaff.2021.00619

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1525001621003956

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11596-021-2395-1

https://www.mja.com.au/system/files/issues/215_04/mja251182.pdf

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/cea.13880

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/all.14840

https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4418/11/4/579

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1567576921007980

 

 

But like I said. People died from the vaccines. https://publichealthinsider.com/2021/10/05/king-county-statement-on-resident-who-died-of-rare-vaccine-related-blood-clot/

plus the link from New Zealand for Pfizer.  

These reports directly from health authorities 

55 minutes ago, austinfan said:

Unfortunately, I've had to deal with a dozen surgeons or so the last couple decades due to a family issue. And I am related to a number of doctors, including a couple on the staff of a top medical school - I've heard my share of horror stories. So I have first and second hand experience - we've dealt with good surgeons, but also some outright liars and others who cut with callous regard to post-surgical treatment and advice. And I've dealt with numerous GPs - some were decent and thoughtful, others arrogant and of the opinion that a M.D. meant their judgement should not be questioned. I am quite capable of reading the medical literature, I have both a science education and a background with statistical studies.

I don't think I'm "underqualfied" as an attorney either, having finished in the top third of a top 15 law school (that was my limit b/c I'm lousy at memorization and regurgitation, still a key to success in Law School, the only intellectually challenging courses were Constitutional Law which I aced). I wasn't a "good lawyer" b/c I'm a lousy rainmaker, which is the primary key to making partner in a Law Firm - but I was good at doing law in my area of expertise. I don't opine on law outside of Regulatory and Administrative Law (what I do) and Constitutional Law (what I love and hope to write on). Otherwise I simply point to a reputable source.

You on the other hand, what exactly do you have to recommend yourself beside an inflated sense of self-importance?

Very uncharacteristic response from you...you ok bud?

Jason Peters limped off the field, came back in the game, and false started.

13 minutes ago, schuy7 said:

JP hurt after 2 plays. 🤣

I admire the desire to play, but man you're gonna ruin the rest of your life keeping at this.

1 minute ago, SB52 said:

Jason Peters limped off the field, came back in the game, and false started.

I love JP man but c'mon man the guy is done, why are people still paying him?

1 minute ago, SB52 said:

Jason Peters limped off the field, came back in the game, and false started.

Oh come on! No one is gonna believe that.

2 hours ago, austinfan said:

Are you always an a-hole, or just on your bad days?

Someone makes a controversial claim, asking them to back it up with a legitimate reference (no, Fox News and Newsmax do not qualify, neither does Brietbart) is not unreasonable.

I don’t think it is as simple as either you or the original poster you were responding to make it out and perhaps that is what E45 meant. The reports of clotting and the reports of complications to the heart muscles, I believe both included a death (similar with Astra Zeneca) temporally with getting the vaccine but that the instances were rare and accompanied by other markers that might have suggested an alternate source.  I suspect that even if I could find the abstract for such study (mainstream media struggles with that level of scientific reporting) that such would utilize terminology and details not in our normal vernacular.  The data would also suggest that such occurrences were so rare that the granularity to make them statistically valid samples is arguably lacking but was deemed sufficient enough for the FDA to place warnings of such possibilities with the vaccines.   I spent twelve years handling toxic tort litigation and pollution litigation and got in the habit of reading NIH and NIEHS abstracts and they don’t cater to lay people.  Hell, they don’t cater to researchers not in the specific fields. 

This game is like watching a slightly more talented Eagles play the Eagles.

1 hour ago, bpac55 said:

My question with mandates/vaccines/kids and such is what is the end goal?  I don't think we'll ever see 100% vaccinated nor will we ever see a time in our lives again when there is no more Covid.  It's here for good.  We have to live with it.

What do we need to see where we can say OK, we don't need to have this separation because of mandates and forcing kids to have them.  I've just never seen a realistic goal.  The only time we were ever really given a timeline was when they said 2 weeks to stop the spread. 

The problem is you don't know who genuinely is enforcing policy for good reasons and who has a personal agenda. Trust in our institutions and government is at a low right now. Some policies make sense, some don't and are not backed up by any science whatsoever.

I support individual businesses and institutions putting in their own policies. I think they should have the right to put in mandates if they want. I'm against federal mandates though. I think it sets a terrible precedent and is government overreach. Also, I think it's kinda gross that the government can get people like front line workers fired, who sat in firing lines of COVID for a year and a half and let people spit and sneeze in their faces while providing all kinds of services to people, and these people were called "the true heroes" by many a people, and now if they don't want the vaccine then it's "F you, go away." No gratitude at all. And as we've seen in some parts of Australia, the federal mandates can get way out of hand. Don't think it can't happen here. Not saying that will, but it can. And I don't want to open that box.

And I don't believe as of yet anyway there's any data showing vaccine mandates have done anything to lower COVID rates.

8 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

I don’t think it is as simple as either you or the original poster you were responding to make it out and perhaps that is what E45 meant. The reports of clotting and the reports of complications to the heart muscles, I believe both included a death (similar with Astra Zeneca) temporally with getting the vaccine but that the instances were rare and accompanied by other markers that might have suggested an alternate source.  I suspect that even if I could find the abstract for such study (mainstream media struggles with that level of scientific reporting) that such would utilize terminology and details not in our normal vernacular.mimwould also,suggest that such occurrences were so rare that the granularity to make them statistically valid samples is arguably lacking but was deemed sufficient enough for the FDA to place warnings of such possibilities with the vaccines.   I spent twelve years handling toxic tort litigation and pollution litigation and got in the habit of reading NIH and NIEHS abstracts and they don’t cater to lay people.  Hell, they don’t alter to researchers not in the specific fields. 

Yeah but afan has a scientific education now too…

Adverse events get reported and labelled very conservatively. Largely thanks to weasel lawyers like afan. I have been in enough meetings with fda on AEs that i can tell you almost anything goes in the label.

 

3 minutes ago, Sack that QB said:

Also, I think it's kinda gross that the government can get people like front line workers fired, who sat in firing lines of COVID for a year and a half and let people spit and sneeze in their faces while providing all kinds of services to people, and these people were called "the true heroes" by many a people, and now if they don't want the vaccine then it's "F you, go away." No gratitude at all.

This part blows my mind.  They were told they were heroes for a year, unvaccinated and now can get fired for not being vaccinated.  Meanwhile, United States Congress is exempt from any vaccine mandate...

Fields is a legit rookie, but my good is he terrible.  At least Hurts pretends to scan the field in a QB stance before taking off lol

1 minute ago, Wentz_Era said:

Fields is a legit rookie, but my good is he terrible.  At least Hurts pretends to scan the field in a QB stance before taking off lol

I still think he has high potential

1 minute ago, bpac55 said:

This part blows my mind.  They were told they were heroes for a year, unvaccinated and now can get fired for not being vaccinated.  Meanwhile, United States Congress is exempt from any vaccine mandate...

Especially when a lot of them already had COVID and are more protected and safer to be around than those who've only been vaccinated, yet they can lose their jobs. It's utter insanity.

5 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

I still think he has high potential

I'm not seeing it personally, but time will tell.

34 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Of course it is, if I have a technical question, I just call an expert I know - but I'm not interested in the technical details, I'm neither designing vaccines or testing their efficacy. 

I'm reviewing studies, mostly meta-studies, and seeing if their results are supported by the statistics presented.

So I don't care how the vaccine works (other than curiosity), I care about the rate of infection, hospitalization and death between vaccinated and non-vaccinated populations. And that sort of study depends on understanding statistics and study design, not the technical details of vaccination and immune system operation. These kind of studies are common in environmental science and policy, where cost benefit analysis requires estimates of the effect on the population with regard to mortality and disease of reducing a pollutant to a certain level. For example, you don't have to know the exact mechanism by which small particulates lead to an increase in lung cancer, just the correlation between the level of small particulates and the increase in the incidence of lung cancers to make rational policy. Now the cancer researcher might then use that correlation to justify targeting small particulates in her research.

"A man's got to know his limitations."

Fields just got his bell rung. Those kinds of hits will get a QB hurt.

20 minutes ago, Sack that QB said:

The problem is you don't know who genuinely is enforcing policy for good reasons and who has a personal agenda. Trust in our institutions and government is at a low right now. Some policies make sense, some don't and are not backed up by any science whatsoever.

I support individual businesses and institutions putting in their own policies. I think they should have the right to put in mandates if they want. I'm against federal mandates though. I think it sets a terrible precedent and is government overreach. Also, I think it's kinda gross that the government can get people like front line workers fired, who sat in firing lines of COVID for a year and a half and let people spit and sneeze in their faces while providing all kinds of services to people, and these people were called "the true heroes" by many a people, and now if they don't want the vaccine then it's "F you, go away." No gratitude at all. And as we've seen in some parts of Australia, the federal mandates can get way out of hand. Don't think it can't happen here. Not saying that will, but it can. And I don't want to open that box.

And I don't believe as of yet anyway there's any data showing vaccine mandates have done anything to lower COVID rates.

You mean like the Cops who refused to wear masks at demonstrations even though they were required to do so?

The same Cops who justify killing unarmed civilians b/c they felt they were in danger but refused to get vaccinated even though far more Cops have died from COVID than were shot in the line of duty the past two years? I guess it's ok to put your co-workers and their families in danger?

Vaccines have been mandated since George Washington at Valley Forge. It's clearly in the purview of the government to "protect the general welfare."

As far as health workers, I'd fire any health worker who refused to get vaccinated on the grounds that you're too stupid to put anyone's life in your hands. Like the idiot PT who showed up at our house unvaccinated after we made it clear that we would only accept a vaccinated person, then took off his mask to make a call in the room with the patient. Or the ambulance driver who wasn't vaccinated when transferring my wife (who is vulnerable) to a different hospital. Sorry, people like that aren't heroes, they're zeros.

Maybe you need to live with family members who could die if infected to appreciate why some of us strongly support mandates.

The Steelers have the fattest punter I have ever seen.

Nice pass there from Fields, it might help if his O line actually blocked. 

1 minute ago, metal said:

The Steelers have the fattest punter I have ever seen.

The Carmelo Anthony of punters 

Glad we didn’t get Fields or Wilson

gross

39 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

I don’t think it is as simple as either you or the original poster you were responding to make it out and perhaps that is what E45 meant. The reports of clotting and the reports of complications to the heart muscles, I believe both included a death (similar with Astra Zeneca) temporally with getting the vaccine but that the instances were rare and accompanied by other markers that might have suggested an alternate source.  I suspect that even if I could find the abstract for such study (mainstream media struggles with that level of scientific reporting) that such would utilize terminology and details not in our normal vernacular.  The data would also suggest that such occurrences were so rare that the granularity to make them statistically valid samples is arguably lacking but was deemed sufficient enough for the FDA to place warnings of such possibilities with the vaccines.   I spent twelve years handling toxic tort litigation and pollution litigation and got in the habit of reading NIH and NIEHS abstracts and they don’t cater to lay people.  Hell, they don’t cater to researchers not in the specific fields. 

In a strange way, there's been excessive caution in both directions. On the one hand, they've been paranoid about any potential adverse reaction to the vaccines, which were still outweighed by a couple orders of magnitude by the benefits (in the US alone, estimates of 140K lives saved v a few deaths that may or may not be due to the vaccines). This is driven by social media, one or two bad reactions get blown up into a full blown scare, causing thousand to die b/c they don't get vaccinated. So being overly cautious preserves government credibility (we're carefully watching the issue).

On the other hand, the mask rules and other measures went way overboard, it was obvious after the first couple months that it was not being spread by surfaces (maybe in hospitals, but not in real life, in small rooms with multiple infected patients it might be an issue, but on paper bags from the grocery?), that masks worked (even 50% effective meant a huge decline in virus spread) and that you didn't have to be so paranoid outside. Mandates would have been more successful if they were based more on common sense than  "zero risk," that is, address the most dangerous situations, maskless in enclosed spaces without adequate ventilation for an extended period. A bar around Sturgis was far more dangerous than a BLM demonstration.

 

3 minutes ago, DawkinsOwnage03 said:

Glad we didn’t get Fields or Wilson

gross

I’d be worried about Wilson more than Fields, at least the Jets line can pass block once in awhile, Chicago’s is just awful.  If you’re not going to bench a rookie like Andy Reid does, this is what you get.  

4 minutes ago, DawkinsOwnage03 said:

Glad we didn’t get Fields or Wilson

gross

This draft class will be a great case study.  Never cared for Fields or Wilson.  Lawrence was the big time prospect, but may have found himself in a bad situation.  Lance…just a total heap of talented clay, may be a good situation though.  Mac Jones has the right coaching and the advanced skill set without the explosive arm or athletic talent…but no weapons.