24 minutes ago, austinfan said:

Tin foil hat time again?

A simpler explanation was with the OL in disarray, he wanted to put in a college like system that let Hurts use his legs and make quick throws off the RPO. Remember, Siri admitted he had no experience with the RPO, so this was probably done in a misguided attempt to make Hurts comfortable, using a college style system. When it didn't work, Siri went with what worked in Indy, a balanced offense that runs the passing game off play action and avoids too many 3rd and long situations. This started against the Raiders before Sanders went down. It also coincides with Mailata moving to LT, Lane at RT and Dickerson getting comfortable at LG.

New coach, new QB, new offensive line, inexperienced WRs, then you trade Ertz. A little trial and error, then Siri found the right scheme that works with his personnel.

The o-line wasn't in disarray at the start of the season? Certainly against Dallas Sirianni had an opportunity to scheme a plan that focused on the run game.  Instead he had a pass heavy plan and not only that he likely did not push Hurts to hand off the ball and check into runs. I think they are still running a fair amount of the RPO's but he is handing off more often.  I think they are running from under center and having play action from under center which has helped both the passing and the run game.  

2 minutes ago, greend said:

And yet other teams somehow manage to do it

Other teams also draft well when in non-rebuilding years.

34 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

Sirianni probably got tired of getting blasted in the media, went to Howie and suggested that he'd adjust his scheme because it was apparent Hurts throwing 35+ times per game was never going to become a winning formula.  Full marks to him for adjusting.  It should be noted Doug showed no ability to do that last season.

I don't think the media had anything to do with the decision.  I don't think he went to Howie.  I think he probably took advice from veteran players and probably to some extent Stoutland.  My sense is that Sirianni is concerned with losing the locker room.  Making repeated mistakes is a sure way to lose the players even if the problem is a lack of talent at QB.  

13 minutes ago, Bacarty2 said:

ahh yes, bragging about random regular season wins

Dimes to dollars an upper echelon / elite Qb wins the superbowl and the majority of the playoff games. 

Here’s the best stat of the day. Last decade from 2010-2020, the top 6 teams in wins were patriots, packers, Seahawks, Steelers, chiefs and saints. All competing for SBs a good portion of the time and all had elite QBs. Right after were the ravens, broncos and colts. Meanwhile the broncos had Peyton manning for 4 years (3 ridiculous years). And the colts had Peyton for a year and then Andrew luck until they end of 2018. So the one team I can consistently say did not have really have an elite quarterback was the ravens. 

6 minutes ago, greend said:

And yet other teams somehow manage to do it

Name one

3 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Here’s the best stat of the day. Last decade from 2010-2020, the top 6 teams in wins were patriots, packers, Seahawks, Steelers, chiefs and saints. All of whom won Super Bowls, consistently competing for SBs and all had elite QBs. Right after we’re the ravens, broncos and colts. Meanwhile the broncos had Peyton manning for 4 years. And the colts had Peyton for a year and then Andrew luck until they end of 2018. So the one team I can consistently say did not have really have an elite quarterback was the ravens. 

The Steelers haven't won a Super Bowl since 2009.  

16 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

I don't need a tin foil hat to see what I see.  They are not convinced and sold on Hurts but they wanted to see what they had.  They saw.  Then they had to adjust and go back to real big boy football.  Something your running QB can be somewhat productive in.   Siri found a scheme that works with his personnel.....you mean a scheme that has been working for decades?  And here I thought his "scheme" was working before he started to get the running backs involved.  Or so I'm told.  

"They?" They hired the OC from a ball control offense, the Eagles under Reich weren't a pass happy team, nor were the Colts under Reich/Sirianni. In fact, AR in his later days in Philly was much more big play passing game than Reich, who harks back to "early" AR and the ball control passing game using RBs and TEs.

2016:  392 rushes, 46 QB runs, 604 passes, 109 to RBs, 185 to TEs, 312 to WRs

2017:  398 rushes, 75 QB runs, 555 passes, 75 to RBs, 165 to TEs, 315 to WRs [Sproles only played 3 games]

I doubt "They" would have chosen a RPO heavy offense as the basis for a passing game. "They" would have preferred "Air Reid."

A more likely explanation is that Siri had implemented a lot of these concepts in TC, where they seemed to work, but facing NFL defenses, with inexperienced WRs, an OL struggling to pass block and an inexperienced QB learning a new scheme - what worked in practice didn't work in games. So he went back to his Indy roots.

I don't think Siri intended to run as much as he has the last few games - but it was so successful he kept calling running plays - when you're gaining 5+ yards a carry on run downs (which is totally different than breaking off runs on passing downs - you can't assume those plays will work against a run defense formation), you'd be crazy not to run the ball. Mix in enough pases to keep the defense honest and pound them into submission.

4 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

The Steelers haven't won a Super Bowl since 2009.  

Yeah went back and edit it. I forgot it was the 2009 playoffs. Either way the point still stands that 8 out of the 9 teams with the most wins and had the most consistent success in the league over the last decade had some sort of HOF/great QBs for at least a 3 year window besides the ravens.

6 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Here’s the best stat of the day. Last decade from 2010-2020, the top 6 teams in wins were patriots, packers, Seahawks, Steelers, chiefs and saints. All competing for SBs a good portion of the time and all had elite QBs. Right after were the ravens, broncos and colts. Meanwhile the broncos had Peyton manning for 4 years (3 ridiculous years). And the colts had Peyton for a year and then Andrew luck until they end of 2018. So the one team I can consistently say did not have really have an elite quarterback was the ravens. 

Boy, you have a lot of elite QBs. Big Ben, Smith, Wilson, Flacco, Luck. Kinda cheapens the term.

I'll grant you Brady, Rodgers and Brees.

20 minutes ago, Bacarty2 said:

ahh yes, bragging about random regular season wins

Dimes to dollars an upper echelon / elite Qb wins the superbowl and the majority of the playoff games. 

Dimes to dollars the team with a top defense wins the Superbowl and the majority of playoff games.

38 minutes ago, austinfan said:

Boy, you have a lot of elite QBs. Big Ben, Smith, Wilson, Flacco, Luck. Kinda cheapens the term.

I'll grant you Brady, Rodgers and Brees.

So big Ben who is 5th all time in wins and about to be 5th in passing yards all time was not a elite quarterback?  Russell Wilson has not been elite in this league?

I also never said Alex Smith was an elite. So good job making up that i said that. They were barely top 10 when Alex Smith was the quarterback. However Patrick Mahomes since he’s taken over in 2018 in those three years was elite. They were 2 wins from being top 4 

And Andrew luck was most definitely elite. He took over a team that had 2 win this season before and the very next year he took him to 11 wins and the postseason as a rookie quarterback. And was consistently great year in and year out until he got hurt. And you want to talk about a team that didn’t help their quarterback go no further than Andrew luck and the colts. It’s a shame he retired when he did because the colts began drafting better and getting the pieces in place. yet he only had one losing season and that’s because he was injured. His last 3 fully healthy seasons in the league he averaged 36 tds, 15 ints, 4531 yards and 64% completion. 

also said the ravens were the only team among them that did not. However Lamar Jackson in that period of time has won NFL MVP. So if you want to talk about in previous posts about reading comprehension. I suggest not missing that point. It’s literally the last sentence of the paragraph  

so based off your logic of what you’ve told me in the past Patrick Mahomes unproven, big Ben was never elite but is a top 5 in wins all time and about to be in passing yards, Russell Wilson has never been elite, Andrew luck has also never been elite. Good to know.

 

56 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

And the fact that you say Hurts is a better runner....just illustrates how wrong you are.  I don't want my QB being a runner and just for you to use that as one of his few strengths, tells me all I need to know.  McNabb is the best QB in franchise history.....Period....End of Story.  Hurts is a QB that the coaching staff had to adjust and take the ball out of his hands in order to get the offense going.  It's not even close.

 

 

McNabb gets crapped on way too much.  

If we are comparing hurts and McNabb we can only compare their 1st full season.  Compare them.  You might be surprised and hurts still has 6 more games and is getting better as the season goes on

So we're at the point now where idiots are trying to claim Hurts is better than McNabb. That seems right on schedule.

The absolute hatred some people have for McNabb really baffles me. 

1 minute ago, SNOORDA said:

If we are comparing hurts and McNabb we can only compare their 1st full season.  Compare them.  You might be surprised

Now compare passing stats league wide in 2000 and 2021. And wake me up when we win 11 games and make the playoffs in 2021.

3 minutes ago, vikas83 said:

So we're at the point now where idiots are trying to claim Hurts is better than McNabb. That seems right on schedule.

The absolute hatred some people have for McNabb really baffles me. 

Not only do we have that we’re trying to compare an era in which was mcnabb’s first year where you could beat the crap out of the wide receiver and not get a penalty called. it was so bad that they had to change the rules. And it’s become a passing league with each passing year favoring the passing game even more 

Tom Brady was on Sirius radio two weeks ago and even two years talking about how the NFL  has completely changed from when he started into where we are today. He called it skills competition now (https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2864957-tom-brady-nfl-now-a-little-more-of-a-skills-competition-than-a-football-game.amp.html)

 

I think something being overlooked with this elite QB talk is the coaching that goes with it. I think coaches have more influence in the NFL than they do in the other 3 big sports.

Say what you will about the cheating, but Bellichek is a master coach. Especially defensively. But just overall, the guy is obsessed with football, going so far as to only use left footed punters because the ball spins different. He just looks for any possible advantage, no matter how obscure it seems. But he's also a great game day coach and generally pretty good situationally too.

In regards to Ben, I think Tomlin is a great regular season coach, and great motivator/leader, but his playoff record isn't that great at 8-8. At times I feel like he's a bit overrated, but at other times I think he's kinda underrated. It's hard to get a grasp on him.

Carrol cost his team a Super Bowl by stupidly throwing at the goal line. Just insanely dumb. 

Dan Quinn had that game in the bag, but completely blew it with terrible coaching.

Doug et al called a masterful game, which even then was just enough to beat Bellichek and Brady. 

Ron Rivera I think is not a good coach, and got exposed as a one and done. Same with Jon Fox, got there but got wrecked. 

The classic example of a bad coach destroying a team's chances is McCarthy. The guy completely failed Rodgers and the Packers, and I have no doubt in my mind he'll blow it with the Cowboys too. Terrible game manager, over reliant on analytics now, and I don't see him as a great leader/motivator. I think he is good at designing the first 15 plays, but after that he's a complete clown.

Andy Reid is a great coach, though not on gamedays. Unbelievable game planner, maybe nobody better at the first scripted plays of a game. And players absolutely love the guy. But it took a marriage with him and Mahomes to get it done. 

So to sum up, an elite QB is certainly a big part of the puzzle, it makes a lot of other things easier. But if you don't have a good to great coach to go with that QB, you aren't winning it all either. Jury is still out on Sirianni IMO, though so far I'm more encouraged than discouraged. 

 

 

Just to put and end to this stupidity -- McNabb's first year as a starter was 2000. What did he do? FINISH SECOND IN MVP VOTING.

https://www.espn.com/abcsports/mnf/s/0001227faulkmvp.html

Quote

 

Wednesday, December 27, 2000
Faulk edges McNabb in MVP voting
Associated Press

NEW YORK -- Marshall Faulk's record-setting ride for the St. Louis Rams earned him the NFL's Most Valuable Player award in balloting conducted by The Associated Press and announced Wednesday.

 

	Faulk

 

 

Faulk, whose 26 touchdowns beat Emmitt Smith's league mark by one, carried the defending-champion Rams into the playoffs with his late-season heroics. He scored 11 of those touchdowns in the last three weeks and had three four-TD games.

 

The swift running back also had 220 yards rushing in last Sunday's victory at New Orleans that helped St. Louis squeeze into the postseason.

 

"This season was pretty high up there, a very special one just because of all the things we faced," said Faulk, who finished with 1,359 yards and 18 touchdowns rushing, plus 81 receptions for 830 yards and eight TDs.

 

Faulk said it was especially gratifying to break a record set by "a warrior" like Smith, and that the mark also showed what the Rams were capable of as a team.

 

"But the thing that overshadows it for me and doesn't allow me to harp on it is we were fighting for our lives to try to get into the playoffs," Faulk said.

 

The Rams got in thanks mostly to Faulk, and play at New Orleans again on Saturday.

 

Faulk, 27 and in his seventh NFL season, received 24 votes from a nationwide panel of 50 sports writers and broadcasters. He beat Philadelphia quarterback Donovan McNabb (11), Tennessee running back Eddie George (8), Oakland quarterback Rich Gannon (5), Indianapolis quarterback Peyton Manning (1) and Baltimore linebacker Ray Lewis (1).

 

"No question he's deserving of the MVP," said Rams quarterback Kurt Warner, who won the honor last year. "Look at what he did in 14 games. I don't think there's any question about what he's meant to the team."

 

Without Faulk -- he missed two games and was hobbled in two others with a knee injury that required midseason arthroscopic surgery -- St. Louis has a good offense, but virtually no running game. With him, the Rams can be devastating with the ball.

 

But Faulk not only is a great runner, he's as good a pass-catcher as most starting wide receivers.

 

"I don't think there is a prototype," he said. "To play the position and be effective and help the team in the passing game -- catching the ball, blocking and picking up blitzes, understanding protections -- you eliminate the need for another person on the roster. They can add someone else at another position to the roster. It's sort of like having one guy who could do two jobs."

 

Faulk, the 1999 Offensive Player of the Year, is the 14th running back to be voted MVP, joining such Hall of Fame runners as Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Jim Taylor, Paul Hornung, Earl Campbell and Marcus Allen. He is the second successive Ram to win it and the third overall -- Roman Gabriel was the 1969 MVP.

 

 

1 minute ago, vikas83 said:

Now compare passing stats league wide in 2000 and 2021. And wake me up when we win 11 games and make the playoffs in 2021.

We are talking about mcnabb and hurts.  How would league wide stats or total wins come into play?  
 

we don’t know what hurts will be.    We know what mcnabb was.   He led the team to 5nfccg and a sb.   My favorite eagles qb not named Cunningham. Does that mean I can’t be hopeful for hurts?

1 minute ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

Pisses me off.  Some of them are white claw drinking millennials who would argue Lebron over MJ as well.  

It's like when people bring up John Elway's completion percentage. Just ridiculous.

20 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

So big Ben who is 5th all time in wins and about to be 5th in passing yards all time was not a elite quarterback?  Russell Wilson has not been elite in this league?

Dude is a flat out clown.  Comes up with utter nonsense in his continued defense of the worst GM in the NFL.

1 minute ago, SNOORDA said:

We are talking about mcnabb and hurts.  How would league wide stats or total wins come into play?  
 

we don’t know what hurts will be.    We know what mcnabb was.   He led the team to 5nfccg and a sb.   My favorite eagles qb not named Cunningham. Does that mean I can’t be hopeful for hurts?

Because the game has changed to make offense easier. Did you just start watching football? What's next -- going to tell me Jon Kitna has better stats than Dan Fouts?

1 minute ago, SNOORDA said:

We are talking about mcnabb and hurts.  How would league wide stats or total wins come into play?  
 

we don’t know what hurts will be.    We know what mcnabb was.   He led the team to 5nfccg and a sb.   My favorite eagles qb not named Cunningham. Does that mean I can’t be hopeful for hurts?

Comparing Hurts' passing numbers to McNabb's in 2000 isn't a proper comparison given any average QB can put up 350 yards passing on any given day in today's game. 

8 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

I think something being overlooked with this elite QB talk is the coaching that goes with it. I think coaches have more influence in the NFL than they do in the other 3 big sports.

Say what you will about the cheating, but Bellichek is a master coach. Especially defensively. But just overall, the guy is obsessed with football, going so far as to only use left footed punters because the ball spins different. He just looks for any possible advantage, no matter how obscure it seems. But he's also a great game day coach and generally pretty good situationally too.

In regards to Ben, I think Tomlin is a great regular season coach, and great motivator/leader, but his playoff record isn't that great at 8-8. At times I feel like he's a bit overrated, but at other times I think he's kinda underrated. It's hard to get a grasp on him.

Carrol cost his team a Super Bowl by stupidly throwing at the goal line. Just insanely dumb. 

Dan Quinn had that game in the bag, but completely blew it with terrible coaching.

Doug et al called a masterful game, which even then was just enough to beat Bellichek and Brady. 

Ron Rivera I think is not a good coach, and got exposed as a one and done. Same with Jon Fox, got there but got wrecked. 

The classic example of a bad coach destroying a team's chances is McCarthy. The guy completely failed Rodgers and the Packers, and I have no doubt in my mind he'll blow it with the Cowboys too. Terrible game manager, over reliant on analytics now, and I don't see him as a great leader/motivator. I think he is good at designing the first 15 plays, but after that he's a complete clown.

Andy Reid is a great coach, though not on gamedays. Unbelievable game planner, maybe nobody better at the first scripted plays of a game. And players absolutely love the guy. But it took a marriage with him and Mahomes to get it done. 

So to sum up, an elite QB is certainly a big part of the puzzle, it makes a lot of other things easier. But if you don't have a good to great coach to go with that QB, you aren't winning it all either. Jury is still out on Sirianni IMO, though so far I'm more encouraged than discouraged. 

 

 

100% agree you need the coaching to go along with the great QB. I think that goes hand-in-hand because we don’t have one or the other you’re not gonna be as successful as you want to be. Although i question just how good of a coach lefleur is if he doesn’t have rodgers.  

it is really hard for me though to say Russell Wilson is not elite QB when he’s a top-five quarterback in the league when he’s healthy. And has been arguably for 4 years now. It’s also hard for me not to call big Ben elite when he’s about to be 5th all time in passing yards and won as much as he had. Yes he’s had good teams and coaching around him. I get it’s a different game now but to have the sustainability to even get into the top five and have the amount of success he’s had on the field he is an elite quarterback. He’s not anymore but he definitely was. 

2 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Dude is a flat out clown.  Comes up with utter nonsense in his continued defense of the worst GM in the NFL.

the fact that he told me that I said Joe Flacco was elite meanwhile the last sentence of my paragraph says the only team in that group of 9 teams that didn’t have an elite quarterback at some point in time was the ravens.  that’s right in that paragraph and yet he somehow ignored it.