4 minutes ago, mattwill said:

And the key contributors to that failure have been held accountable and are gone.

Howie Roseman says hello.

2 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

Rasul is interesting. He bounced around to like 5 different teams before finding success in GB. So I don't know that you can place it all on the Pederson staff. But your overall point stands, they never really developed young players, on either side of the ball. And when a guy showed some promise (Fulgham, who yes, had his issues, but should never have been benched for Alshon in the middle of his hot streak), they'd go back to relying on the vets who carried them to 52. 

Put Rasul consistently in a C1/C3 defense and he’ll go back to the guy we know. He doesn’t have the long speed to cover the deep end, he needs safety help which he is getting in GB (another 2 deep shell team that can’t stop the run). 

11 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Let's talk defense for a second...this is a very important philosophical question.

Do you think a team with an elite defense and a merely decent offense can reliably win a superbowl in 2021 and beyond? How many elite DPOY type players are there in the NFL?  How many of them change games so consistently that you would say contending teams have actually built around them?

If there is hesitation in your answers, it matters.  We've got 3 first round picks coming up in the next draft and a lot of people want all 3 to be defensive players.  Sure, our defense has holes that need to be addressed.  But if a defense can't carry you to a title, does it impact the way you invest in that side of the ball?

It's where you can create the most marginal improvement.  The only place we can improve on offense would be our third and fourth receiving options and that isn't worth a first round investment.

We don't need to draft a DPOY.  What we need, however, are folks that concern OCs.  Right now, Slay is the only player that requires some game planning.

2 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Yes.  I agree.   The Wentz issue wasn't the pick, but all the things that went on around that.  They invested 3 1st round picks into that selection and didn't manage it properly.  

Buy a new bike... leave it out in the yard and let it get rained on for a few years and rust out.  The decision to buy the bike isn't a bad one, but the way it was handled is.  Of course, ulimately, the purchase turns into a waste of resources as it doesn't last as long as it should have.

Nope.  There's still one very much still in place.

The problems with Wentz in 2020 and 2019 are 100% on Peterson and his direct and indirect reports.  The front office only got involved like FEMA cleaning up after the disaster had happened 

2 minutes ago, Desertbirds said:

Howie Roseman says hello.

How did Howie contribute to the decline of Wentz?

1 minute ago, mattwill said:

The problems with Wentz in 2020 and 2019 are 100% on Peterson and his direct and indirect reports.  The front office only got involved like FEMA cleaning up after the disaster had happened 

The FO built a dreck of a roster...

Just now, mattwill said:

How did Howie contribute to the decline of Wentz?

Failure to build a talented team in 2018, in 2019, and especially in 2020.

 

Who hired the coaching staff?

Just now, Desertbirds said:

The FO built a dreck of a roster...

Wentz would have gone haywire with any roster.  His losing his sanity was mostly an internal issue.  Doug interacted with Wentz’s unreasonable behavior Howie didn’t

Just now, mattwill said:

Wentz would have gone haywire with any roster.  His losing his sanity was mostly an internal issue.  Doug interacted with Wentz’s unreasonable behavior Howie didn’t

I don't see how you can absolve Roseman in terms of the interpersonal dynamics.

2 minutes ago, Desertbirds said:

Failure to build a talented team in 2018, in 2019, and especially in 2020.

 

Who hired the coaching staff?

Lurie hired Peterson and Peterson hired his staff

4 minutes ago, mattwill said:

The problems with Wentz in 2020 and 2019 are 100% on Peterson and his direct and indirect reports.  The front office only got involved like FEMA cleaning up after the disaster had happened 

 

1 minute ago, Desertbirds said:

The FO built a dreck of a roster...

yeah was gonna say, when your FO/Gm is relying on old oft injured players making huge contributions, yeah that mess is on them. Peters, Alshon, Djax last year - yeah 100% on the Front office and GM. Drafting JJAW, Reagor/Sideny Jones and Hurts? Again on the Front office/GM. 

Not supporting Wentz with a decent team helped bring about his downfall here. 

 

6 minutes ago, mattwill said:

How did Howie contribute to the decline of Wentz?

I said this before last year and I’ll re-iterate it again. Saying you fixed the wide receiver position with a 33-year-old DeSean Jackson who couldn’t stay healthy, Alshon Jeffery game that they played taking him off Pup last year when he was done anyway, drafting three rookie wide receivers and just assuming during a pandemic they were going to just hit the ground running. The most consistent wide receiver they had last year was Greg Ward. If Greg Ward is going to be your most consistent wide receiver because you did a **** job building your wide receiving corps in 2019 and 2020. you’re gonna have issues

this isnt Wentz doesn’t deserve any blame for his downfalls because he definitely does. But you’re gonna tell me the wide receiving group was anything remotely close to competent the last two years he was here then you are lying to yourself. 

1 minute ago, mattwill said:

The problems with Wentz in 2020 and 2019 are 100% on Peterson and his direct and indirect reports.  The front office only got involved like FEMA cleaning up after the disaster had happened 

bull.

The issues with Wentz in 2019 was that he had no receivers to throw to... but hey, that's on the coaches.  They were the ones that selected JJAW, stuck with/drafted Agholor, reupped Jeffery despite him clearly having issues with Wentz, trading for and overpaying an aging deep threat in Desean Jackson, and we finished the year with Greg Ward, Robert Davis and Deontay Burnett at WR.  

The biggest problem with Wentz in 2020 was the failure of the OL and once again, no WRs... Jalen Reagor was no solution, and they once again brought back Jeffery and Jackson!  That falls 100% on the GM not having invested in the young players needed to fill in when the older players were going to break down... and then bringing back Jason Peters again to 'fix' the problem.

The coaching staff can be blamed for not turning more to the running game rather than looking to pass so much... but the roster construction was the fault of the GM.

1 minute ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Who gives a rat's backside if he played for the JETS?  He was drafted to play for the EAGLES, was he not, and failed to do anything.   And he played one year for the Jets and was a 'meh' player for that year as well.

It matters because if you are judging the pick based on the talent of the player then if he stays in the League it's not as bad a miss in terms of NFL potential.  I am not defending Howie or the Jarrett pick.  I just don't want to use arbitrary reasoning to evaluate the decision.  My thoughts on Howie is that the 2011 draft is a great example of his shortcomings.  The Watkins and Jarrett picks were made to appease Reid and his staff.  He didn't have his own convictions but went along with what others wanted.  He touts consensus building but a consensus is made when there's a philosophical unity in the decision.  I don't think there's a reasoning through of picks.  I think it's a matter of giving in to different people rather than trying to have some overarching theory behind player selection.  I mean why is JJAW valued over DK and Jefferson valued less than Reagor? There is no philosophical unity in terms of player evaluation that exists between those picks.  

5 minutes ago, mattwill said:

How did Howie contribute to the decline of Wentz?

See above.

16 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Here are the top 10 defenses in points allowed, only two of them have a legitimate shot at winning the Super Bowl this year, Buffalo and Green Bay.  So my answer to the bolded is no.

NE, BUF, TEN, DAL, GB all have a pretty good chance to win the SB.
 

Who are the other teams not in this list with a good chance to win it? KC, RAMS, TB. That’s 5 out of the top 8 most likely to win it with top 10 defenses. 

1 minute ago, mattwill said:

Wentz would have gone haywire with any roster.  His losing his sanity was mostly an internal issue.  Doug interacted with Wentz’s unreasonable behavior Howie didn’t

Cant say that, he was put int the circumstances by the Front Office/GM, that circumstance led to his falling apart- neither of us can say he would have or wouldn't have fell apart with different circumstances

8 minutes ago, mattwill said:

How did Howie contribute to the decline of Wentz?

See below.   Multiple bad draft and FA failures did not put the best team around him.

7 minutes ago, Desertbirds said:

The FO built a dreck of a roster...

 

6 minutes ago, Desertbirds said:

Failure to build a talented team in 2018, in 2019, and especially in 2020.

 

Who hired the coaching staff?

 

Just now, NCiggles said:

It matters because if you are judging the pick based on the talent of the player then if he stays in the League it's not as bad a miss in terms of NFL potential.  

Nah, the pick needs to be evaluated on how the player fits with the Eagles' system.  If the player doesn't fit the system, then the inner workings of how the organization functions, communicates and pulls in the same direction is broken.

Just now, Desertbirds said:

I don't see how you can absolve Roseman in terms of the interpersonal dynamics.

Those dynamics took place on the practice field.  Howie isn’t a factor during practices

4 minutes ago, Ipiggles said:

 

yeah was gonna say, when your FO/Gm is relying on old oft injured players making huge contributions, yeah that mess is on them. Peters, Alshon, Djax last year - yeah 100% on the Front office and GM. Drafting JJAW, Reagor/Sideny Jones and Hurts? Again on the Front office/GM. 

Not supporting Wentz with a decent team helped bring about his downfall here. 

 

Helped yes.  But 90% was on Wentz and Doug.  
 

How did drafting Hurts contribute to Wentz’s decline?

4 minutes ago, mattwill said:

Lurie hired Peterson and Peterson hired his staff

Matt, it is time to step away from the pipe.

3 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Nah, the pick needs to be evaluated on how the player fits with the Eagles' system.  If the player doesn't fit the system, then the inner workings of how the organization functions, communicates and pulls in the same direction is broken.

I agree with your final sentence.  That was in my opinion 75% on Doug’s shoulders.

32 minutes ago, downundermike said:

These are the facts that @austinfan does not want to hear.

It was meant to address his argument that Howie should be given credit for Mailata in terms of draft picks.  I don't disagree that he deserves some credit for later round picks but that's not where he's making the most difficult choices.  He's failing in the role where he does, allegedly, have primary responsibility.  That being said, we should appreciate Afan's defense of Howie because it helps avoid confirmation bias.