1 hour ago, BigEFly said:

The reality is that the fall semester is over by the time bowl games are over and many college football players that intend to pursue careers in the NFL leave college after the fall semester not intending to attend in the spring because they are going to be training for the NFL Combine and Pro Days during that time in preparation for the draft.  So, in essence you are asking a former student to play in the bowl games.   Seeing several players that are entering the draft be injured in bowl games doesn’t help your argument.   The bowl games in question are being opted out of by former students no longer receiving that free education (at their choice, not because it was pulled).  Want to solve that problem?  Play bowl games right after the college football season before the fall semester ends.  (Whoops, that interferes with travel after the holidays for alum attending the games or TV after the fall season which contributes so much money back to the coffers of Universities and the NCAA).  BTW, actual cost of the tuition and room and board for those players pales in comparison to the money their play brings to most universities.). 

The free education might be over but the obligation isn't imo

19 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

Have to think Jameson and Metchie both still go in the second round…

Yep

43 minutes ago, bitbased said:

The schools are literally using them to bring in income under the guise of "fair" accommodation via an athletic scholarship. I don't know why we pretend that these players can realistically handle a full class schedule on top of the time commitment of being in a sports program. What's required of the players is more akin to employment. The colleges care more about their image and the money coming in rather than what their athletes are getting out of their "education."

So? Why else would they give out free education?

25 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

Should help our enjoyment of the game if the visibility is low.  

Schools will revoke the scholarship if an athlete stops playing.  The scholarship is tied to playing.  I don't the University of Alabama costs $100,000 but even if it did, Jameson lost more than 10 times that if he is now a late first round pick.  

No doubt, but he still received his education. which is what the school said it would do. 

44 minutes ago, RLC said:

Student athletes don't get the full value of a college education, because their scholarship commitments take them away from the classroom.

That's why the NCAA puts a limit at 20 hours 'in-season' per week.  And it's not really that different than students who have to hold down jobs while attending school to help pay for their education.   My wife and I both held part-time jobs while attending college... both of us working more than 20 hours per week.   Are you suggesting that my wife and I couldn't get the full value of a college education because of our commitments to the part time jobs?  

 

I'd have happily worked 40 hours a week while attending college if it meant I walked away with a degree and zero debt.

52 minutes ago, bitbased said:

The schools are literally using them to bring in income under the guise of "fair" accommodation via an athletic scholarship. I don't know why we pretend that these players can realistically handle a full class schedule on top of the time commitment of being in a sports program. What's required of the players is more akin to employment. The colleges care more about their image and the money coming in rather than what their athletes are getting out of their "education."

It's an internship for the NFL. Most will get a free education, which is worth a lot of money in many cases. Others will get jobs in the NFL. They know the risks and that's how business works. As for class schedule...lots of single moms handle more than practice and classes.

33 minutes ago, downundermike said:

FYP

If they are taking a WR with one of the 3 1sts then give me Garrett Wilson, if he's available.  Him and Devonta could be a nasty duo for years to come.

47 minutes ago, MillerTime said:

Alabama made a 33 million dollar profit last year. So 132,000,000 over 4 years. So players get a whole 0.002%.

Now at 85 players. Not all get scholarships of course but we will add it like that. Also, we will act like they are all out of state.

That’s 22%.

Alabama makes 78% of the take off these kids. $102,960,000. The worst parts are they can’t even negotiate and the college has no responsibility to their injury.

They get to decide if they want to attend University X or University Y... or take a scholarship at University X or walk-on at University Z instead, with no guarantee of anything.  

These students get many advantages in the process... with some inherent risk.  Nothing comes without risk.  And generally, the higher the reward, the greater the risk that must be taken to achieve that risk.  And... we are only focusing on the students that are really taking the risk of injury due to their draft status.  The vast majority of these college athletes, including the vast majority at the power conference schools, never cash a paycheck in the NFL. 

But, if the high profile players continually back out of the bowl games... then the numbers of dollars the schools get will end up dwindling.  And then... when should a top player draw the line on when the games become meaningless?  Just the bowl games?  What about that last regular season game?  What about the last half of the regular season when the team already has 3 losses and has no chance at a National Championship? 

There is a slippery slope that the NCAA is on... I get the empathy for student-athletes like Williams who get a serious injury in that final bowl game.  I empathize with those players that get injured in their senior year at any point... I empathize with them when they get injured in any year of high school, even when it happens in high school, and could impact their scholarship status at a big school, and then they have to go to a smaller school instead and lose the opportunity the bigger school would offer.  There is no perfect solution.  There is inherent risk in playing the game of football.  There is also inherent risk in the act of working out for the game of football.  Sydney Jones tore his Achilles in a Pro Day workout.  Should he have skipped the workout because it could hurt his draft status?  

 

44 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

Should help our enjoyment of the game if the visibility is low.  

Schools will revoke the scholarship if an athlete stops playing.  The scholarship is tied to playing.  I don't the University of Alabama costs $100,000 but even if it did, Jameson lost more than 10 times that if he is now a late first round pick.  

Costs more than that, actually.   I did the breakdown.  Even for in-state, all the incidentals add up to over $31k per year (according to the UA's own calculation).

59 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

And it seems more and more, that a college degree doesn't really hold the same weight it used to. 

Well a vast majority of degrees, you spend about 80% of your degree plan wasting your time on classes and info you'll never use.

18 minutes ago, greend said:

So? Why else would they give out free education?

Not to mention national exposure. That might be the most valuable thing young men aiming for the NFL get, worth more than any degree short term. If not for College TV exposure how would we and NFL scouts know about most of the players declaring for the draft? Especially players from places like Central Michigan and Northern Iowa.

1 hour ago, bitbased said:

The schools are literally using them to bring in income under the guise of "fair" accommodation via an athletic scholarship. I don't know why we pretend that these players can realistically handle a full class schedule on top of the time commitment of being in a sports program. What's required of the players is more akin to employment. The colleges care more about their image and the money coming in rather than what their athletes are getting out of their "education."

The rules are 20 hours per week.  And that's the in-season commitment.  Why can't they realistically handle that while taking 12 credits (the minimum to be considered a full-time student)?   I handled 18 credits per semester, while working 20+ hours per week.  

 

Yes, it is 'employment'.  It's like a contract.  Employer/college offers one thing.  Employee/student-athlete offers something else in return.

 

What if the students that opt out of the final bowl games were responsible to pay back to the school all the expenses that were incurred on your behalf?    I had an AF ROTC Scholarship for my first two years.  At the end of year 2, I chose a different path and had to pay back to the DoD every cent that they had paid on my behalf.  (If I'd have given up the scholarship after the first year, I would have been exempted from that payback.  Oh well... we all make choices and have to live with the consequences of those choices.). Why not have those 'first round' talents do that?  They'd theoretically have the money with their signing bonuses... and it would encourage the fringe talents to actually play in the bowl game and try to raise their stock rather than opt out due to fear of injury.  They had the same risk of injury in every other game they ever played in.

1 hour ago, TorontoEagle said:

And it seems more and more, that a college degree doesn't really hold the same weight it used to. 

It's fine

https://www.businessinsider.com/ncaa-unc-athlete-essay-decision-sanctions-2017-10

The kid just earned a couple million by getting injured as well...

59 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I'll add, they get more than a college education.  They get free coaching as well to help them turn their raw athletic skills into more pro-ready.   How much would it cost these athletes to hire private coaches who would be involved in every aspect of their training... diet, workout schedule (free access to a gym, as well with much better equipment than the local Fitness 19), and in-game experience.   They get a great many 'payments' for their training.  

 

To play a little devil's advocate... Jameson Williams is from Missouri.  So, he'd have to pay the 'Out-of-State' tuition to UA.  

Without aid, the cost would be $51,398 per year.     That's $205,592.  
https://financialaid.ua.edu/cost/

How much would it cost him to get private coaching to improve in his craft?   I've seen estimates of $40-$90 per hour.   Let's keep the math simple and assume $50/hr.  According to NCAA by-laws, they are only allowed to have team related activities like working out, practice, film watching for 20 hours per week.   So, that would be $1000/week.   That's only the 'in-season' limit.  So, starting in late July through the end of December (bowl season), means 23 weeks.  That's $23,000 cost per season.  $92,000 for the 4 years.   This does not include offseason training.   They are maxed at 8 hours per week out of season.   For the sake of argument, let's give them 4 weeks off over the course of the year... that leaves 25 weeks (numbers being round is convenient).  8 hours/week * 25 weeks = 200 more hours, and that's another $10,000 per year... or $40,000 for the 4 years.

The opportunity to get in-game experience is an almost incalculable resource... how much is that worth?  That experience is likely worth more than any other mentioned above, and plenty of students in college take 'unpaid internships' in order to get access to certain industries and to get the networking access that those internships offer.  (Obviously, others take paid internships as well and get that same benefit.)    So, let's call this a wash.  Whether paid or unpaid, internships offer something of value to both the intern and to the company using the intern, so let's say that that cost is not worth trying to calculate.

How much would it cost to have a gym membership at a gym?  According to https://www.healthline.com/health-news/gym-memberships-can-be-a-trap, the average cost is $58/month.  Again, for the sake of simple numbers, let's round down to $50/month.  That's $600/year and $2400 for the four years.

 

So, total 'value' added for the student-athlete at Alabama? 
$205,592 (tuition)
+ $92,000 (in-season coaching)
+ $40,000 (off-season coaching)
+ $2400 (gym access)

= $339,992.   So, a 1/3 of a million dollars over the 4 years (for an out of state student).

That's really what is being invested in a single student at UA that's coming from out of state.  In-state students would save $20,000 per year in tuition.  So, that's just 1/4 of a million dollars over the 4 years. 

 

But, let's fix to pay them on top of that.  How about $15/hour?  (20 hours/wk in-season [23 weeks], 8 hours/wk off-season [25 weeks], 4 years = 2640 hours total during the 4 years ) = $39,600 for the 4 years.   Let's round it off to $10,000.    You prefer $25/hour?  $16,500 per year.

 

(BTW... I recognize that many college athletes actually practice more than the 20 hour limit set by the NCAA.  So, while they are getting more coaching, I am not showing that as a charge for what they are 'gaining', but also not including those extra hours as part of their payment either.)

Wow the University of Alabama must be going under with that cost and they're giving all of the coaching and tuition without getting any money in return....no wait, they had a 16 million dollar profit in 2020 and $189 million in revenue.  I am not saying that the students aren't getting anything.  I am saying that for elite athletes the economic risk of an injury is outweighed by the financial compensation from the school.   From an economic standpoint, the revenue is there for the schools to address that risk.  The problem is that there are rules in place that prevent players and schools to be able to address the problem through  market solutions.  Until that risk is fixed, players should consider the potential economic harm before deciding to play when the draft is upcoming.  

If a player does not perform well or even if they are injured, not liked by the head coach the school may not be obligated to continue the scholarship?  Scholarships are performance based and evaluated on an ongoing basis.  There's nothing wrong with that but it's wrong to suggest the player has broken an obligation they agreed to perform.  The school isn't obligated to play the player or provide tuition if the player does not play.  It is a mutual ongoing obligation that is preceded by the player playing.  

I mean one fix would be to get rid of this:

12.4.1.1 Athletics Reputation. Such compensation may not include any remuneration for value or utility that the student-athlete may have for the employer because of the publicity, reputation, fame or personal following that he or she has obtained because of athletics ability.

Who cares if college players can get money signing autographs and doing car ads? 

23 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

That's why the NCAA puts a limit at 20 hours 'in-season' per week.  And it's not really that different than students who have to hold down jobs while attending school to help pay for their education.   My wife and I both held part-time jobs while attending college... both of us working more than 20 hours per week.   Are you suggesting that my wife and I couldn't get the full value of a college education because of our commitments to the part time jobs?  

 

I'd have happily worked 40 hours a week while attending college if it meant I walked away with a degree and zero debt.

https://www.usa.gov/join-military

15 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

Wow the University of Alabama must be going under with that cost and they're giving all of the coaching and tuition without getting any money in return....no wait, they had a 16 million dollar profit in 2020 and $189 million in revenue.  I am not saying that the students aren't getting anything.  I am saying that for elite athletes the economic risk of an injury is outweighed by the financial compensation from the school.   From an economic standpoint, the revenue is there for the schools to address that risk.  The problem is that there are rules in place that prevent players and schools to be able to address the problem through  market solutions.  Until that risk is fixed, players should consider the potential economic harm before deciding to play when the draft is upcoming.  

If a player does not perform well or even if they are injured, not liked by the head coach the school may not be obligated to continue the scholarship?  Scholarships are performance based and evaluated on an ongoing basis.  There's nothing wrong with that but it's wrong to suggest the player has broken an obligation they agreed to perform.  The school isn't obligated to play the player or provide tuition if the player does not play.  It is a mutual ongoing obligation that is preceded by the player playing.  

I mean one fix would be to get rid of this:

12.4.1.1 Athletics Reputation. Such compensation may not include any remuneration for value or utility that the student-athlete may have for the employer because of the publicity, reputation, fame or personal following that he or she has obtained because of athletics ability.

Who cares if college players can get money signing autographs and doing car ads? 

I am fine with paying them a little extra.  But, that 'little extra' should be just that.  A little extra.  I got $12/hour in college after getting a promotion to supervisor.  Before that, I was getting $9/hour.  Today's dollars are certainly different... so double that for all I care... but a college student-athlete should not be getting $100k a year.  

 

Obviously, the UofA made more money on the deal.  But, they are also the ones with all the overhead costs.  They are also the ones footing the bills for travel, uniforms, training staff, medical staff, etc.  Yes, they made money.   But... let's play devil's advocate even stronger.   Let's completely eliminate NCAA football as a part of the equation and let kids instead go play semi-pro ball straight out of high school.  No more college scholarships.  And if kids want to go to college AND play semi-pro, they are welcome to do so.  Would that system work better?   I don't know.   I just know that the current system isn't nearly as broken as some try to portray it.  

 

Yes, it sucks for Jameson Williams to get injured in that game, and potentially lose out on some money that he would have gotten as an earlier first round draft pick.  Of course, without the exposure that he got as a player at UoA, what type of draft pick would he have been?  Maybe a second round pick anyway?   We know that UoA WRs generally perform well at the NFL level, because of their quality of recruits, and quality of coaching they get there.  If he went to Mississippi Valley State instead, would he be looked at the same?  What if he stayed 'home' and played at Missouri?  In both cases, he wouldn't have been playing on Monday night... but would his stock have been as high there?  Who knows?  We are arguing about the grey.  No one knows how much value he got from attending Alabama specifically and the exposure HE got for being there.  Nor do we actually know how much he has actually lost due to injury, because no one knows exactly when he would have been drafted in the first place without the injury.   I heard that Smith was a better WR than Waddle the whole lead up to the draft.  Waddle was the one coming off injury, not Smith.  Smith exploded in that last game... but when push came to shove, the Eagles were able to trade down from their position to a team that wanted a WR (Waddle) and still were able to draft the guy (Smith) that virtually everyone said was a better WR.  So... who knows exactly what he really lost.  Was he definitely a top 15 pick before the injury?  We don't know.  Will he fall to pick 53 now?  We'll find out.  But, he definitely gained a significant amount of his notoriety because he was at Alabama and had the Heismann Trophy winner throwing him the ball, versus having Connor Bazalek as his QB.

13 minutes ago, dawkdaballhawk said:

https://www.usa.gov/join-military

I had an AF ROTC scholarship, but thanks... I chose to go in a different direction that the military path while in college... and had to pay it all back.

BTW... just an FYI.. the ROTC Scholarship wouldn't have truly been 'zero debt', it would have been a 4 year commitment, which is a debt.

1 hour ago, NCiggles said:

Should help our enjoyment of the game if the visibility is low.  

 

Agreed.

1 hour ago, ToastJenkins said:

Have to think Jameson and Metchie both still go in the second round…

I really think Jameson still goes in the 1st.  He hasn't come close to touching his potential yet.  I said it in an earlier post but I think he's a combination of Chase and Smith.  With his recovery schedule, he should be healthy by the season opener.  He's such a explosive player.  I'd have no issue if the Eagles take him with their own pick.  Sadly, they still need help at WR and should be an early target.  Luckily, for the 3rd year in a row, the WR class is pretty loaded...if only we didn't have Howie.

I'm not going to go down this rabbit hole because it's a football forum but how screwed up our schooling system is (from a cost perspective) shouldn't be a defense of how students in general are taken advantage of. Who cares? Just keep the money rolling in. The fact that insane education costs are looked over or defended is beyond me.

4 minutes ago, bitbased said:

I'm not going to go down this rabbit hole because it's a football forum but how screwed up our schooling system is (from a cost perspective) shouldn't be a defense of how students in general are taken advantage of. Who cares? Just keep the money rolling in. The fact that insane education costs are looked over or defended is beyond me.

Go for it. The offseason is coming and everyone needs to prepare to bring their A game.

3 hours ago, BigEFly said:

The USFL starts this spring. I think it will be like a NFL minor league if it survives.  CFL does a little of that but not intentionally. The AAF was targeting that.  It is interesting that the USFL is bringing back some old names like the Stars, Gamblers, Stallions, Generals.  Hopefully they don’t try to compete again.  Not sure picking existing NFL locations was a good idea.  The Rock openly has courted a partnership and if the XFL really returns, I could see them as the minor league the NFL needs so desperately to develop players that just aren’t quite getting that at college. That said, I really like the Covid induced PS and IR rules.  NFL should keep those. 

I think the NFL has to own its minor leagues otherwise any other league will be competition.   Not inconceivable for another league to do well and force the hand of the NFL.  USFL will definitely be competing with the NFL for bottom half of rosters to begin with and if they do well and don't have a rookie wage scale a few years from now and NFL 2nd round pick can make 3x as much in the USFL as a 1st round pick....

My point is don't count on others to do your job for you because they will always be gunning for your job.

1 minute ago, dawkdaballhawk said:

It's fine

https://www.businessinsider.com/ncaa-unc-athlete-essay-decision-sanctions-2017-10

Sure - but every college has classes that give easy As.  

 

7 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

The rules are 20 hours per week.  And that's the in-season commitment.  Why can't they realistically handle that while taking 12 credits (the minimum to be considered a full-time student)?   I handled 18 credits per semester, while working 20+ hours per week.  

 

Yes, it is 'employment'.  It's like a contract.  Employer/college offers one thing.  Employee/student-athlete offers something else in return.

 

What if the students that opt out of the final bowl games were responsible to pay back to the school all the expenses that were incurred on your behalf?    I had an AF ROTC Scholarship for my first two years.  At the end of year 2, I chose a different path and had to pay back to the DoD every cent that they had paid on my behalf.  (If I'd have given up the scholarship after the first year, I would have been exempted from that payback.  Oh well... we all make choices and have to live with the consequences of those choices.). Why not have those 'first round' talents do that?  They'd theoretically have the money with their signing bonuses... and it would encourage the fringe talents to actually play in the bowl game and try to raise their stock rather than opt out due to fear of injury.  They had the same risk of injury in every other game they ever played in.

I don't think being a student athlete is like a part-time job.  Despite what the rules are the reality is that it's a full-time commitment.  I have friends who were division 1 athletes and who have kids re Division 1 athletes or recent graduates.  These kids are going classes, sleeping and doing team related activities.  It's hard and time consuming.  I think many of them enjoy it but it's not like working a job and going to school.  A friend of mine's son played at NC State, he was not a starter and was not a scholarship player until his senior year.  He had a grand total of 2 days off in a year.  I am not talking about 2 days a week.  I am talking about 2 days, including weekends, holidays and summer where he did not have a football related activity. Now they didn't break the rules because they are not all organized activities but if you want to be on the team you better do it.   His son spent Thanksgiving with his position coach because the position coach suggested that it was a good idea if all of his players came with him for Thanksgiving. 

The difference is the ROTC is paying you to get educated and then join the Air Force.  Just like Teach for America pays tuition in exchange for 4 years of teaching.  Schools are paying for the performance and the revenue it generates on an ongoing basis.  The games and practices that improve the team are to the benefit of the school.  

1 hour ago, BigEFly said:

You watched it as a regular season game.  I looked at it as a preseason game and evaluation of individual performance.  Dallas did us a favor of playing their starters deep into the game as I saw it.   Also, you have to look at it as players that really haven’t had time to gel as a unit. It wasn’t like a sub into a group that had been playing so very much individual evaluation opportunities for the players.  I will review the All 22 when I get the chance. I want to get a better feel for individual play in the secondary.  Hip fluidity, catch up speed and the like.  Dak ate them up but what did they do well and where is there concern for the future.  I think that game really helps those players and their end of the season interviews.   We will see who takes the Quez Watkins approach and who takes the JJAW or Reagor approach this offseason.   

Dak ate them up but Gannon did them no favors.  He should have had them in mostly man coverage and did not.  

9 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

Go for it. The offseason is coming and everyone needs to prepare to bring their A game.

As a teenager my dad gave me two pieces of advice I wish I had followed in hindsight. 

The first was a pipedream -- do a walk-on tryout with a Pacific Coast League baseball team (I could throw about 90 mph at 16 years-old and LH), but I preferred both hockey and football at the time.  The second was to either learn a trade or go down to the rail yard and get on with the union.  This was back in the early 80s and might have worked.

I'm assuming trade schools are still the less expensive educational option -- that may not be the case now.