Just now, eagle45 said:

I think you either draft a franchise qb or have one hand pick you because of your roster talent later in their career.  Trading for one terminates the rebuild, eliminates all resources to address other needs, and almost certainly leaves you with a net product that still isn’t good enough.

Nah

5 minutes ago, greend said:

Nah

Well that depends on the price.  Our OL is a disaster.  We need to add a minimum of 2 starters over 2 years and that is extremely optimistic…it could be 4 starters if Dickerson doesn’t pan out and Lane gets hurt again.

On defense, they basically need an entire new secondary over 2 years and a new DE.   
 

While I realize that Howie cannot draft, the current surplus of draft capital makes these things theoretically possible.

7 hours ago, Diehardfan said:

Yeah, fix what you can. We say this every year but Kelce is going to retire soon so they need two guards and a center (Dickerson hasn't shown much). Good chance they may need at least one TE next year, 3 LB, DE, S, and a CB.

The problem is Howie is an idiot and making that trade will buy him more time. It's not the right thing for the franchise at all. They need to build a team and then find one piece vs having a QB with crap around him (see Stafford in Detroit).

What did you expect to see in the 6 quarters of pro football he's played so far?

8 hours ago, Diehardfan said:

Yeah, fix what you can. We say this every year but Kelce is going to retire soon so they need two guards and a center (Dickerson hasn't shown much). Good chance they may need at least one TE next year, 3 LB, DE, S, and a CB.

The problem is Howie is an idiot and making that trade will buy him more time. It's not the right thing for the franchise at all. They need to build a team and then find one piece vs having a QB with crap around him (see Stafford in Detroit).

While I agree with you, there's no way they won't make a move at QB if they have a guy they want/the draft capital to do it.

13 minutes ago, devpool said:

What did you expect to see in the 6 quarters of pro football he's played so far?

I think it was Daniel Jeremiah who was talking about how most rookie OL starters struggle mightily, but there are exceptions like Nelson, Slater, Wirfs, etc. 

It’s one of the hardest positions to find, and Dickerson spent the entire offseason and much of training camp rehabbing his knee. He didn’t even start practicing until Aug. 31, a day after being activated from PUP. 

Teams don’t rebuild anymore , they just eventually land that stud QB ,  to get them over the top . Of course you will have a roster churn every year , draft well , sign a FA or two every year , and hope you luck into that QB , beit the draft or FA 

37 minutes ago, greend said:

Guys the Watson trade is happening!!!!!! 

 

7 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

I think it was Daniel Jeremiah who was talking about how most rookie OL starters struggle mightily, but there are exceptions like Nelson, Slater, Wirfs, etc. 

It’s one of the hardest positions to find, and Dickerson spent the entire offseason and much of training camp rehabbing his knee. He didn’t even start practicing until Aug. 31, a day after being activated from PUP. 

There are so many concerns with this team that I have trouble worrying about Dickerson. His two worst plays were on a read-option counter play (awful design) and a play-action drop-back in which the play-call was awful AND Hurts went too deep on this drop. On the only real run play in the first half, Dickerson moved the DT back 5 yards. We have a road-grading RG and asking him to pass block 90% of the time in his first NFL start on the road.

Just great coaching.

38 minutes ago, greend said:

Nah

It doesn't terminate it, but when trading multiple first round picks away, especially for a veteran, it decreases the resources available to rebuild and limits the window for the rebuild.   It is very much a 'win now' move. 

 

Trading for Watson, when the team continues to be cap strapped, with no defensive pieces to build around still on their rookie contract, and an offensive line in disarray (again) makes the rebuild hard to complete.  

 

If Watson is available for a bargain basement price, the move could work out, but would likely also extend Howie's shelf life.  Hard pass.  I don't think it will be that much of a bargain, questions still remain surrounding him, and they don't have cap flexibility to add pieces to fill out the roster.

4 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

It doesn't terminate it, but when trading multiple first round picks away, especially for a veteran, it decreases the resources available to rebuild and limits the window for the rebuild.   It is very much a 'win now' move. 

 

Trading for Watson, when the team continues to be cap strapped, with no defensive pieces to build around still on their rookie contract, and an offensive line in disarray (again) makes the rebuild hard to complete.  

 

If Watson is available for a bargain basement price, the move could work out, but would likely also extend Howie's shelf life.  Hard pass.  I don't think it will be that much of a bargain, questions still remain surrounding him, and they don't have cap flexibility to add pieces to fill out the roster.

Do you think there's any scenario in which Howie is canned after this year? Like, if we go 2-15? Honestly....I don't think that would even do it....

13 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

I think it was Daniel Jeremiah who was talking about how most rookie OL starters struggle mightily, but there are exceptions like Nelson, Slater, Wirfs, etc. 

It’s one of the hardest positions to find, and Dickerson spent the entire offseason and much of training camp rehabbing his knee. He didn’t even start practicing until Aug. 31, a day after being activated from PUP. 

And they knew all of that would be the outcome when they drafted him... its almost like they reached for him rather than waiting for his value to match the pick.   This was going to be basically a red shirt year for him for all the reasons you state.   Yes, he's in the games right now, and the results are bad for the team as he's being forced to get the baptism by fire experience.  

That pick was too soon... and we are reaping the 'benefit' now.   Good news is, the rest of the team also sucks right now, so we don't really lose much in having him learn on the job.  But, this is far from an ideal situation for yet another 2nd round pick of Howie's.

5 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

Do you think there's any scenario in which Howie is canned after this year? Like, if we go 2-15? Honestly....I don't think that would even do it....

If the crap fest we watched on Monday night becomes the norm... yes, I think he could be fired.  Howie signed off on drafting Hurts.  Drafting Hurts led to disenfranchising Wentz.  Forcing the trade.   Forcing Hurts into the starter role.  And we see what that is.  If Hurts couldn't be a starter in the league, you don't draft him in Round 2.  And that started a domino effect across the franchise.  Not to mention, the complete and total lack of cap flexibility, almost complete lack of drafting success...  Howie is the man in charge of all of it.  He needs to go.   (and if its Lurie... Lurie needs to scape goat Howie, find a real GM and back off.)

1 minute ago, Iggles_Phan said:

And they knew all of that would be the outcome when they drafted him... its almost like they reached for him rather than waiting for his value to match the pick.   This was going to be basically a red shirt year for him for all the reasons you state.   

This is false. We picked him at 37. The Giants were going to pick him at 42. They even traded down because we sniped them for a 2nd time. 

He was absolutely picked in the right range. Whether he was the correct pick is a different discussion. I'd have taken Samuel.

Just now, Iggles_Phan said:

And they knew all of that would be the outcome when they drafted him... its almost like they reached for him rather than waiting for his value to match the pick.   This was going to be basically a red shirt year for him for all the reasons you state.   Yes, he's in the games right now, and the results are bad for the team as he's being forced to get the baptism by fire experience.  

That pick was too soon... and we are reaping the 'benefit' now.   Good news is, the rest of the team also sucks right now, so we don't really lose much in having him learn on the job.  But, this is far from an ideal situation for yet another 2nd round pick of Howie's.

When you draft a guy, year 1 production shouldn’t be a chief concern. He’s not redshirting (as a lot of people feared), and this is a perfect type of season to let him play through those growing pains. 

You might not agree with the pick (which is fine), but other teams were ready to take him shortly after the Eagles. I believe the Giants reportedly were going to take him.

2 minutes ago, RLC said:

This is false. We picked him at 37. The Giants were going to pick him at 42. They even traded down because we sniped them for a 2nd time. 

He was absolutely picked in the right range. Whether he was the correct pick is a different discussion. I'd have taken Samuel.

Would have loved Samuel, and not because his dad played here. 

7 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

Do you think there's any scenario in which Howie is canned after this year? Like, if we go 2-15? Honestly....I don't think that would even do it....

If we have less than 5 wins, I think he's gone.  Lurie did fire Banner.  He can fire his son Howie.

2 minutes ago, RLC said:

This is false. We picked him at 37. The Giants were going to pick him at 42. They even traded down because we sniped them for a 2nd time. 

He was absolutely picked in the right range. Whether he was the correct pick is a different discussion. I'd have taken Samuel.

And?   Philosophically, you don't draft an injured player in Round 2.  The Giants have such a great history identifying OL.  

 

You don't pick a player at pick 37 that has to take a red shirt year. 

8 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

Do you think there's any scenario in which Howie is canned after this year? Like, if we go 2-15? Honestly....I don't think that would even do it....

Man, if we go 2-15 it means Howie absolutely should go and Sirianni should go too (and I’m pretty patient with coaches early on). 

Three first-round picks and their choice of a new HC could make it an attractive job for a GM candidate. 

1 minute ago, Iggles_Phan said:

And?   Philosophically, you don't draft an injured player in Round 2.  The Giants have such a great history identifying OL.  

 

You don't pick a player at pick 37 that has to take a red shirt year. 

It’s disingenuous to call it a redshirt year. 

Franchise QB is a term that's loosely applied to good but not great QBs on a regular basis.

To me, a Franchise QB is someone you can write in for an extended period (Randall Cunningham had an elite season for the Vikings, Wentz in 2017, one season doesn't make a career) who can raise the play of his teammates, not just put up gaudy stats when surrounded by talent. So Peyton, Brees, Brady, Rodgers, now Mahomes, who else? There are rarely more than 3 or so of these guys in the league, the rest are good but not great, I'd put QBs like Favre, Rivers, Prescott, Wilson, etc in that category. The next tier are the solid QBs who can win with the right talent around them, but can't elevate a team, Eli, Cousins, Garopollo, Carr, Ryan, L Jackson, Stafford, Watson. 

It takes great luck to land a franchise QB, most QBs drafted in the first 15 picks end up as 3rd tier guys or flops. Even good but not elite QB are hard to find. So odds are you're gonna end up with that third tier, guys you can win with but aren't going to carry a team, so you'd better build the team first then find one of these guys and hope you get lucky and they have a magical season or turn out to be better than expected.

To me, the question with Hurts isn't whether he's going to be a franchise QB, Eagles have never had one in my lifetime and probably never will. The question is whether he can develop into a solid 3rd tier guy who can win games if they fill out the roster the next two years. B/c the odds are, that's as good as it's ever going to get.

5 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

It’s disingenuous to call it a redshirt year. 

You are right.  We just have to excuse his early season struggles because he wasn't about to get on the practice field until 4 weeks ago.  Not a red-shirt year, just a red-shirt 8 weeks?   

 

The pick isn't to be judged for a single year.  However, if close to a quarter of the rookie contract has to be excused due to injury and limited practice time, I think its fair to say that the return on your investment may not be what it could have been by waiting a round and selecting a different player.  

 

And, I would like to ask that all future references to 'value' of a player not be backed up by saying 'the Giants were going to take him if we didn't', as we've seen in recent history, they are the epitome of over-drafting players.  

Dickerson was better in the 2nd half than the first half. He's played 6 quarters of football off an injury with no-preseason. It's fine. 

10 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

It’s disingenuous to call it a redshirt year. 

The guy is starting and playing all the snaps in Week 3 ….

I think some folks might be confused on what redshirt means

Complete lack of drafting success?

2018:  Goeddert (49), Maddox (125), Sweat (130), Pryor (206), Mailata (233)

2019:  Dillard (22), Sanders (53), JJAW (57), Miller (138), Thorson (167)

2020:  Reagor (21), Hurts (53), Taylor (103), Wallace (127), Driscoll (145), Hightower (168), Bradley (196), Watkins (200), Prince (210), Toohill (233)

2021:  Smith (10), Dickerson (37), Williams (73), McPhearson (123), Gainwell (150), Tuipulotu (189), Jackson (191), Stevens (224), Johnson (234)

Howie would be "reassigned ", not fired.

If Hurts continues to struggle all season and DeVonta Smith doesn’t play to expectations, Dickerson gets re-injured, etc. I think it’s possible Howie is reassigned after the season.