14 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

It is Hurts until he proves that he's not improving.   Then, after half the season and we can definitively say he's not getting where he needs to go, sure, go to Minshew.   But, we aren't there yet.

If we go to Minshew it's because Hurts is really bad. Minshew is not the guy either, he's Foles II

24 minutes ago, Bacarty2 said:

You can understand that this team is awful and losing today is better for "tomorrow"

Sorry to be a second, third level thinker and understanding how the NFL works

A win yesterday ONLY HURT THE FRANCHISE. Sometimes losing is good. 

If you cant see that I cant help you. 

But have fun in 6-11 purgatory so yOU gET tO SeE yOUR TeAm WiN a MEanInglESS ReGUlaR SeAson GaME 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b5-iJUuPWis

2 hours ago, ManuManu said:

I think there are a lot of fair criticism of Hurts’ play, but I think many are letting their bias (as in not liking his play style) or preconceived notions cloud how he played yesterday. I’m guilty of that as well. No doubt he missed some crucial throws, and his pocket awareness was bad, but overall it was a promising outing.

He looked much better than against Dallas, where he basically sabotaged the team. Those handful of bad plays separate average and bad quarterbacks from the good ones, so it’s not an excuse. I think people need a little more patience. 

I agree.  It was a big step up from Dallas.   

 

The throw to Ertz on the first drive was brutal.  That's a throw he's got to make 10 out of 10 times.  It doesn't really get much 'easier' than that.   The Ward throw was bad.  He rushed it.  That was another 'easy' throw.  The throw that was nearly picked off was just a terrible decision.  But, there were some really good signs mixed in.   The throw to Smith down the sideline from deep in our own end was a good one.  The throw to Goedert on the first drive was a bullet up the seam to the TE.  That might have been my favorite throw of the game.  The deep ball to Smith where he went OOB was a good throw, bad route by Smith.   (The coaches need to teach these WRs how to give themselves enough space on that route.).   He was still bailing too quickly in the pocket and looking to run far too early.  A lot of young QBs do that.  He needs to gain some pocket presence.   And I think that the RPO game just isn't in Hurts' wheelhouse, at least not yet.   His processing of these decisions isn't there yet.  He hesitates and that's a big no-no on those plays.  

 

Again, on the plus side, the newly fashioned OL played pretty well, all things considered.  First start for Dickerson at LG.  Not great, a few massive brain farts on the left side where Dickerson and Dillard didn't communicate properly and let in early pressure.  Driscoll is just a good football player.  He may never be a starting level player, but he's a great depth guy to have around.  I'd feel pretty good about him in the game at just about any spot on the OL.  Dillard played fairly well also.   Those downfield penalties weren't really on him.  We'd have to see the All-22 to see exactly where he was on those throws and when the throw was made.  

 

From a coaching standpoint though, the continual barrage of yellow on the field needs to stop.  That's on them.  They need to correct it... and fast.

Hurts really needs to figure out the RPO issue. They have to drill it into his head, if he pulls the ball from the RB to make a pass and the guy isn't open (which he should be if he's pulling the ball in the first place), then he can't wait for somebody to come open. He's gotta eat it and run it himself at that point, otherwise, we're going to continue to see penalties for illegal man downfield. So far that is my biggest frustration with Hurts. 

5 minutes ago, greend said:

If we go to Minshew it's because Hurts is really bad. Minshew is not the guy either, he's Foles II

Agreed.  I think the difference with Minshew versus Hurts is that Minshew allows you to run a more conventional type offense and get more of an evaluation on the rest of the offensive roster.  It becomes more about mesh concepts in the passing game than WR screens.  They can still be mixed in, but wouldn't be the emphasis they are currently.  I like them when they work now that we have players that can execute them.  But they are being used more to cover up for deficiencies in other areas.  I'd like to see the WRs get better on other routes as well for the future.  They can be a nice wrinkle, but should be more of a sometimes.

9 minutes ago, greend said:

We do have patience and  he looked okay yesterday. That said whether or not we have patience doesn't mean a damn thing in the grand scheme of things. I don't like his style of play and I will complain about him until he proves me wrong or he is gone, I also give credit when he makes nice plays. But again whether I support him or not means absolutely nothing.  

Accuracy continues to be a problem. Looking to run and running into trouble continues to be a problem (teams have figured out he likes to run and he aint no Jackson or Vick). And he's still slow at decision making.

I don’t really agree with the bolded. You, maybe. But not "we.”

While Barnett has made a lot of bone head plays, I'm not sure this was one of them, he seemed to have been blocked into the QB.

Gannon doesn't have much to work with, and I think at some point he's just going to play kids over some mediocre veterans. His soft defense reflects that his two best players are DTs (and DE before Graham got hurt), his safeties lack speed and his CBs are decent, but not good enough to be left on an island against top WRs. And Taylor is probably the only LB with the athleticism for matchups. Wilson is a disappointment, we knew he was a liability against the run, but he was supposed to be good in coverage.

But this is what rebuilding is all about, losing Graham early hurts, b/c you hope to work in guys like Williams, Jackson, etc. over the season.

Kerrigan may be cooked, but I also think he's just not a 3 point DE, you'd be better using him as a stand up pass rusher.

However, after 4 games, Eagles are 19th in rushing YPA, though 31 in rushing yards allowed. 14th in net yards per pass. 28th in 1st downs allowed. 10th in yards allowed per play.

So the defense is working in that they're forcing teams into long drives, they just not stopping those drives - and that's where the lack of playmakers in the back seven is glaring, 2 turnovers in 4 games won't get the job done.

 

Hurts stepped right into a sack twice for no reason

The bad throw that almost got picked

The fumble at the end of the first half

But we also had 3 TDs taken away by penalties, none of which we Hurts' fault.  If the defense could have generated a single stop on 3rd down and/or cut out the stupid penalties, its a different conversation today

I think we gave them two first downs by penalty.   This has become a thing now, and Sirianni needs to address it

7 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

I don’t really agree with the bolded. You, maybe. But not "we.”

True.  Some have patience.  Many do not.

9 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

I don’t really agree with the bolded. You, maybe. But not "we.”

Maybe so at the end of the day, it just doesn't matter. Other than it might get tiring after a while.

9 minutes ago, Mike31mt said:

Hurts stepped right into a sack twice for no reason

The bad throw that almost got picked

The fumble at the end of the first half

But we also had 3 TDs taken away by penalties, none of which we Hurts' fault.  If the defense could have generated a single stop on 3rd down and/or cut out the stupid penalties, its a different conversation today

I think we gave them two first downs by penalty.   This has become a thing now, and Sirianni needs to address it

That isn't true actually 1 was debatably his fault

8 minutes ago, austinfan said:

While Barnett has made a lot of bone head plays, I'm not sure this was one of them, he seemed to have been blocked into the QB.

I don't think that's true.  He was on his knees and launched himself into the QB's legs.   That's a big no-no.  That's a bigger no-no against one of the top QBs in the NFL.  AND... its a even bigger no-no if you are a bone-head that has a history of bone-headed plays like that, placing a bullseye on your back... and to compound it even further, he had just gotten away with a late-ish hit on Mahomes on the previous play that wasn't called, but you know that there was a lot of chatter about it by the Chiefs' sidelines and players.  

 

If he wasn't a serial moron, one could defend him.  When he's a serial moron, he needs to watch himself more closely, because everyone else will be.  

4 minutes ago, Bacarty2 said:

He's also already getting "happy feet" that we killed Wentz for, leaving the pocket for no reason

The RPO thing should be coachable.

The happy feet may just need some time.

I'm not so sure about the decision making and ball placement in the red zone.  If that gets better, then maybe we can have a discussion about Hurts for the long term.

21 minutes ago, greend said:

If we go to Minshew it's because Hurts is really bad. Minshew is not the guy either, he's Foles II

Super Bowl MVP Foles?

I'll take that.

18 minutes ago, austinfan said:

While Barnett has made a lot of bone head plays, I'm not sure this was one of them, he seemed to have been blocked into the QB.

Gannon doesn't have much to work with, and I think at some point he's just going to play kids over some mediocre veterans. His soft defense reflects that his two best players are DTs (and DE before Graham got hurt), his safeties lack speed and his CBs are decent, but not good enough to be left on an island against top WRs. And Taylor is probably the only LB with the athleticism for matchups. Wilson is a disappointment, we knew he was a liability against the run, but he was supposed to be good in coverage.

But this is what rebuilding is all about, losing Graham early hurts, b/c you hope to work in guys like Williams, Jackson, etc. over the season.

Kerrigan may be cooked, but I also think he's just not a 3 point DE, you'd be better using him as a stand up pass rusher.

However, after 4 games, Eagles are 19th in rushing YPA, though 31 in rushing yards allowed. 14th in net yards per pass. 28th in 1st downs allowed. 10th in yards allowed per play.

So the defense is working in that they're forcing teams into long drives, they just not stopping those drives - and that's where the lack of playmakers in the back seven is glaring, 2 turnovers in 4 games won't get the job done.

 

Barnett has two moves. A rush straight up the field where he tries to race around the tackle, but never makes it home. Even on run plays, he shoots straight up field regardless of what's going on. It creates massive lanes that our LBs aren't good enough to compensate for. His other move is a laughable spin move to the inside, which is stonewalled almost every time. I would guess 95% of his snaps is him rushing straight up field though. I mean, that can work when the DTs are able to push the pocket backwards. But when they don't Barnett looks like (and ultimately is) a clown. He appears to be playing for himself honestly, much like Babin used to. At least Babin was able to get sacks. Both are detestable team players. 

Getting a kick out of this 40 points given up by Gannon (twice) vs Schwartz (once) argument.

Schwartz was already an accomplished DC by the time he showed up.  And for the majority of his stay he had Jenkins, a younger Cox, and a healthy Graham.  The average talent level during Schwartz' tenure doesn't even compare to what Gannon is working with this season.

Haters gonna hate.

12 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

Hurts really needs to figure out the RPO issue. They have to drill it into his head, if he pulls the ball from the RB to make a pass and the guy isn't open (which he should be if he's pulling the ball in the first place), then he can't wait for somebody to come open. He's gotta eat it and run it himself at that point, otherwise, we're going to continue to see penalties for illegal man downfield. So far that is my biggest frustration with Hurts. 

This!!  Especially now since the refs are calling it more than before, also it’s probably not a coincidence that the two teams who used the RPO the most in the past few years (Eagles and Chiefs) beat Belichick and gave Brady’s team fits in the SB.   Jason Kelce in 2017 would of had at least 10 penalties if they were calling it this tight.  2020 Foles beats Brady again, 2021 refs are calling it, lol. 

5 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

Barnett has two moves. A rush straight up the field where he tries to race around the tackle, but never makes it home. Even on run plays, he shoots straight up field regardless of what's going on. It creates massive lanes that our LBs aren't good enough to compensate for. His other move is a laughable spin move to the inside, which is stonewalled almost every time. I would guess 95% of his snaps is him rushing straight up field though. I mean, that can work when the DTs are able to push the pocket backwards. But when they don't Barnett looks like (and ultimately is) a clown. He appears to be playing for himself honestly, much like Babin used to. At least Babin was able to get sacks. Both are detestable team players. 

Can't spell "compensation draft pick" without team.

57 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

5 DB is pretty much base defense throughout the NFL, though -- unless you have a LB who can cover Mecole Hardman or Pringle.  Few teams do, and the Eagles certainly aren't one.

You're forgetting who suited up yesterday, although he was wearing #52

18 minutes ago, Bacarty2 said:

He's also already getting "happy feet" that we killed Wentz for, leaving the pocket for no reason

Some times, yes.  But he wasnt bad yesterday.  Like others have said, lets see him take on a better defensive front next week

 

Last week, IMO, the moment was too big for him.  I was surprised by that, but the same thing happened tp Wentz as well.  

The one thing I didn't like was him kind of throwing Smith under the bus for the pick 6, gotta keep the emotions in check even on the big stages

Id still be perfectly fine if they tried Minshew.  But yesterday was encouraging to me

4 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

Barnett has two moves. A rush straight up the field where he tries to race around the tackle, but never makes it home. Even on run plays, he shoots straight up field regardless of what's going on. It creates massive lanes that our LBs aren't good enough to compensate for. His other move is a laughable spin move to the inside, which is stonewalled almost every time. I would guess 95% of his snaps is him rushing straight up field though. I mean, that can work when the DTs are able to push the pocket backwards. But when they don't Barnett looks like (and ultimately is) a clown. He appears to be playing for himself honestly, much like Babin used to. At least Babin was able to get sacks. Both are detestable team players. 

Sweat doesn't look any better.

He's got one move and it's a messed up move where he does some weird flying hop into the OT, he's got zero bend around the corner and zero change of direction.

Once he goes one way if he needs to redirect he can't his knee doesn't let him.

He's got 1 sack where he wasn't blocked and has been abused in the run game as he plays too high runs past plays opening huge lanes and as said earlier has zero change of direction ability to retrace.

Both he and Barnett have been really bad since graham went down.

Always loved graham as a player, cone to appreciate him more now that he's gone and we're forced to see the steep drop off.

Neither Barnett nor Sweat are really what I want out of a DE.   They both committed unacceptable penalties, Barnett just does it regularly

Im done with Barnett but Sweat at least has some upside.  Id love for them to find a big time player on the DL next draft

 

Edit: both of them need to permanently retire their stupid spin moves like yesterday

The one thing that's become obvious is that it's time to draft defensive players, with 3 WRs, 2 TEs, depth on the OL, the offense is more a matter of jelling than talent at this point. Even if Ertz leaves, Stoll and Jackson should be able to step in and at some point they can pick up a big WR to fill his role (JJAW is probably as good a blocker as Ertz at this point).

But they haven't drafted much on defense for 6 years, depending on a core of veterans to carry the load:

2016:  Countess (196), Mills (233), McCalister (240), Walker (251)

2017:  Barnett (14), Jones (43), Douglas (99), Gerry (184), Qualls (214)

2018:  Maddox (125), Sweat (130)

2019:  Miller (138)

2020:  Taylor (103), Bradley (196), Toohill (233)

2021:  Williams (73), McPhearson (123), Tuipoluto (189), Jackson (191), Stevens (224), Johnson (234)

Now they could have done better in 2017, Barnett has underachieved for his draft slot, Jones was a whiff, but other than that, one pick in the top 100 in the other five years. Picks after #100 are generally depth guys, if you hit on a starter it's like hitting on a slot machine. They did hit on Sweat, Maddox is a solid nickel, Mills was solid but limited, we'll see about the last two years.

But they really need a draft like Dallas had this year, #12, #44, #75, #84, #99, #115, #192, #227 - saturation bombing.

Bring in a bunch of players early, and athletes later in the draft. I'd think about trading down from one of their 1st rd picks to accumulate more ammunition.

31 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

Hurts really needs to figure out the RPO issue. They have to drill it into his head, if he pulls the ball from the RB to make a pass and the guy isn't open (which he should be if he's pulling the ball in the first place), then he can't wait for somebody to come open. He's gotta eat it and run it himself at that point, otherwise, we're going to continue to see penalties for illegal man downfield. So far that is my biggest frustration with Hurts. 

Yea, but in the RPO, isn't the read based on the running lane for the RB rather than knowing if someone is open or not?  I'm under the impression that if he takes the ball out of the RB stomach then he doesn't see a hole for them to run through and the better option is for him to either A. throw to an open WR or B. run it himself.

Is my thinking wrong here?

Either way, you're right.  They have to fix it.  If he can't learn how to do it then you scrap it.  The penalties are drive killers.   

55 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

It is Hurts until he proves that he's not improving.   Then, after half the season and we can definitively say he's not getting where he needs to go, sure, go to Minshew.   But, we aren't there yet.

I feel like we have these 2 young QB prospects, with debatable and varying levels of promise and limitations. 

If the entire goal of this season is QB evaluation to get the decision right, then it would seem wrong to give Hurts anything more than a half of the season so they both have equal time for evaluation and improvement week to week. 

Maybe Jalen appears to be improving, but extremel slowly through all of these weeks. Do you take that all the way out to week 14, 15, 16, 17? And have minimal, or no chance to evaluate Minshew in this system? I guess if the goal is to make the right decision on Jalen, then yes. But if its to make the right decision on our which QB is the one to move forward with then you gotta seem the both equally. Minshew is already at a disadvantage considering its a losing season, guys will be quitting, and most likley injuries will be mounting to the point things will be really ugly in his last couple of weeks.  Id like to see him in there in week 9 almost regardless of Hurts' performance. Unless hes suddenly somehow looking like a pro-bowler by then.

 

3 minutes ago, Utebird said:

Sweat doesn't look any better.

He's got one move and it's a messed up move where he does some weird flying hop into the OT, he's got zero bend around the corner and zero change of direction.

Once he goes one way if he needs to redirect he can't his knee doesn't let him.

He's got 1 sack where he wasn't blocked and has been abused in the run game as he plays too high runs past plays opening huge lanes and as said earlier has zero change of direction ability to retrace.

Both he and Barnett have been really bad since graham went down.

Always loved graham as a player, cone to appreciate him more now that he's gone and we're forced to see the steep drop off.

Sweat is a rotation DE who's best used on passing downs. Which is fine, if used correctly he could be a double digit sack guy, but he'll never be a top DE.

I always thought Eagle fans underrated Graham b/c he wasn't a double digit sack guy, now you know why a lot of sack guys are overrated, playing disciplined run defense is almost a lost art.