1 hour ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

Yeah, no ish dude. And you're rooting for the wrong side.

And you're rooting for a side. Good job. Johnny wanna treat? 

Personally I think there are far more entertaining things going on than the latest global temper tantrum. It's a laser pointer.

 

8 minutes ago, lynched1 said:

And you're rooting for a side. Good job. Johnny wanna treat? 

Personally I think there are far more entertaining things going on than the latest global temper tantrum. It's a laser pointer.

 

You can’t outright come out against Russia and for Ukraine because Your Side hasn’t officially done that. 

21 minutes ago, Toastrel said:

Sure, sure, the non-MIRV missiles were hardly worth talking about, and even are not to this day.

Or so you would have me believe in your lame attempt to, what are you trying to do? You claim you are not supporting Russia, and yet you sure do appear to be doing just that. Making excuses for the inexcusable.

 
 

How do I appear to be doing that?

7 minutes ago, Bill said:

You can’t outright come out against Russia and for Ukraine because Your Side hasn’t officially done that. 

I don't because I have no interest beyond how and why we (the US) are dealing with the situation.

What are we going to be committed to?

Why are we being committed to it?

What are the repercussions? 

Go get your pom pom's. I'll sit here and watch them move the pieces on the board trying to figure out why.

 

1 hour ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

Ukraine was not about to join NATO. And even if they were, Ukraine is a sovereign nation with a right to enter into alliances and defend their territory.

I understand the geopolitical explanations Putin has proffered. And I reject them outright, because the West was in no way demonstrating a desire to build up militarily for an invasion of Russia.

And frankly, if it wasn't "NATO aggression", Putin would have manufactured some other excuse for invading. He has done it before, and Kyiv is the birthplace of (Western) Russian culture. 

Tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, will die because Putin has some delusions of grandeur of becoming some modern day Peter the Great.

Ukraine was definitely moving towards western integration. You can debate the time line, but not the direction things were headed.

You can reject whatever you want to outright. Just like Putin can reject your protestations outright. That’s how you end up with wars.

Diplomatic solutions to situations like this require true empathy. Not sympathy, but empathy. If you understand Putin’s views towards Ukraine, then you would realize that no matter how morally justified you might believe the west or Ukraine to be, war was an inevitable result of their integration.

Maybe you think that’s a war worth fighting, but it would have always ended in war.

I agree that Putin is an imperialist — that much I’ve made clear. But I am not as certain as you that his calculus would have been the same had he no fear of Ukraine aligning with the west. It’s a place he always wanted for his own, yes, but wanting something and acting on those wants are two different things. Had he been convinced of its neutrality, I think there is a reasonable chance that Putin would have kicked the can down the road.

1 hour ago, Boogyman said:

Nj has better weather than Florida. 

In September no doubt.  Best month to go down the shore.

1 hour ago, TEW said:

The US, EU and NATO definitely agitated for changing the status quo prior to the invasion though. 

I think that’s the part the west doesn’t fully appreciate. It doesn’t excuse Putin’s actions at all, but it does help to explain them.

Exactly.  The problems were having now were foreseen in the 90's after the breakup of the Soviet Union.  There were pundits on both sides of the aisle that cautioned against over expansion of NATO and encroachment on Russia's sphere of influence.

The chatter today focuses on Putin, and he's portrayed as the villain.  But that's really neither here nor there.  At its core, this is a conflict between the Western sphere of influence and Russian sphere of influence.  It's much bigger than any single individual.  Putin is just the latest in a whole slew of Russian strongmen throughout history.

2 hours ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

The best man in my wedding is from Kyiv. So is another groomsman. My colleague and friend of almost 20 years has a degree in Russian literature from Odessa.

Well, if what you say is true, I would hope at the very least that you're eating some good pirogies. 

30 minutes ago, Procus said:

In September no doubt.  Best month to go down the shore.

All year round. 2 hour drive to ski in the winter. Hot summer.  Spring and fall hiking and hanging out by the fire pit. It's just better all around.

1 hour ago, Toastrel said:

The political entity Russia, that invaded Ukraine, and is currently using people like you to spread their message. I am bigoted against them. They are evil.

I would think at your core, that you abhor bigotry based on a person's nationality, and I have no doubt you would readily admit that you personally would not discriminate against somebody just because their Russian.  But it's dangerous what is going on today, and there is a casual tendency to vilify a whole group of people by many.

13 minutes ago, Procus said:

Well, if what you say is true, I would hope at the very least that you're eating some good pirogies. 

Yes, the people I know actually exist. In real life.

Anyways...

 

 

 

25 minutes ago, Procus said:

Exactly.  The problems were having now were foreseen in the 90's after the breakup of the Soviet Union.  There were pundits on both sides of the aisle that cautioned against over expansion of NATO and encroachment on Russia's sphere of influence.

The chatter today focuses on Putin, and he's portrayed as the villain.  But that's really neither here nor there.  At its core, this is a conflict between the Western sphere of influence and Russian sphere of influence.  It's much bigger than any single individual.  Putin is just the latest in a whole slew of Russian strongmen throughout history.

It's about the Ukranians and what they want.  Yes they are a corrupt state first cousin of Russia.  Bu they don't want to be that anymore.  They are a country that wants to be European in culture and economics and that's what makes them a sympathetic cause.

 

F Putin because Ukraine is the GF that broke up with him and they don't want him back.  His needs and worries don't Fing matter, this is  a country that is working its long way back from that oppression and wants a different century for themselves.  

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Toastrel said:

I am bigoted 

The rest of you need to fess up like this moral degenerate.

1 minute ago, Abracadabra said:

The rest of you need to fess up like this moral degenerate.

🖕

1 minute ago, dawkins4prez said:

It's about the Ukranians and what they want.  Yes they are a corrupt state first cousin of Russia.  Bu they don't want to be that anymore.  They are a country that wants to be European in culture and economics and that's what makes them a sympathetic cause.

F Putin because Ukraine is the GF that broke up with him and they don't want him back.  His needs and worries don't Fing matter, this is  a country that is working its long way back from that oppression and wants a different century for themselves.  

It's not that simple.  The repercussions of getting drawn into the conflict are significant.  Commodities pared back their gains today based on the news of prospects for a resolution.  If the West gets too involved, you don't know where this could head.  Better for cooler heads to prevail and for this to get worked out quietly.

2 hours ago, DEagle7 said:

So in your mind, the "weak" leaders that allowed this war to happen, are being too harsh and aggressive with their reactions to this war? 

I agree with the administration's refusal to send aircraft to Ukraine for starters.  But the problem I have is that all of this happened on their watch.  From where I'm sitting, Biden is to the rest of the world's jokers what Larry Krasner is to Philly's criminal element.

This is the outcome of Putin's braindead gambit:

 

Russia thinks they are the bear. But the kleptocracy with crap GDP growth can't keep pace with the market economies of the West and the superior weaponry it affords.

17 minutes ago, Procus said:

It's not that simple.  The repercussions of getting drawn into the conflict are significant.  Commodities pared back their gains today based on the news of prospects for a resolution.  If the West gets too involved, you don't know where this could head.  Better for cooler heads to prevail and for this to get worked out quietly.

Worried about your 401k?

2 hours ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

I understand the geopolitical explanations Putin has proffered. And I reject them outright, because the West was in no way demonstrating a desire to build up militarily for an invasion of Russia.

All you need to do is look at history and Northern European geography to understand Russian's sensitivity.  Don't poke the bear - it's got sharp claws.

2 minutes ago, Procus said:

Don't poke the bear - it's got sharp claws.

 

Was this an attempt to be clever? 

3 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

This is the outcome of Putin's braindead gambit:

 

Russia thinks they are the bear. But the kleptocracy with crap GDP growth can't keep pace with the market economies of the West and the superior weaponry it affords.

Worried about your 401k?

More like worried about our nation and the crushing blows we'd be dealt if inflation continues to spiral and food and other living costs become out of reach for many.  Excuse me if this tempers my enthusiasm for getting too entangled in this conflict.

4 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

Russia thinks they are the bear. But the kleptocracy with crap GDP growth can't keep pace with the market economies of the West and the superior weaponry it affords.

To this I would question who's paying for this and who is getting rich from this.

6 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

Worried about your 401k?

Never a bad idea.

Just now, Procus said:

All you need to do is look at history and Northern European geography to understand Russian's sensitivity.  Don't poke the bear - it's got sharp claws.

I understand the landscape.

Russia is acting like it's the 19th century.

We're here in the 21st.

There was literally no threat of some nation invading Russia. Ukraine's membership in NATO was being held up because nobody wanted to poke the bear.

The bear decided to attack anyway and it's become apparent that it's underfed and emaciated, and just wants to go home.

The bear is now going to be isolated while the civil world keeps it hemmed in and goes on living life.

You keep acting like you're the only one who's educated on Russia's point of view. Take your weak sauce somewhere else.

1 minute ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

Was this an attempt to be clever? 

Apparently not clever enough if you didn't grasp the point I was trying to make:  Russia for better or worse is a military superpower in possession of a large stockpile of WMD's and other nasty stuff.  They can cause a considerable amount of damage to us economically, specifically with our food supply and to a lesser extent, with energy, and militarily they can be very dangerous if pushed up to the wall.  Better to work to cool things down.

1 minute ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

The bear is now going to be isolated while the civil world keeps it hemmed in and goes on living life.

Too simplified. Too many other pieces moving on the board.