November 3, 20223 yr 1 minute ago, we_gotta_believe said: Unlike what's depicted in the movies, lasers (even mil spec) aren't instantaneous vaporizers. They need still need to linger on the target. And as mentioned, size of the energy source is a concern also, which limit options on anything but larger naval platforms. What we've seen in Ukraine aren't technically coordinated drone swarms though. They are individual low-tech drones that dive bomb on stationary unarmored targets. I don't think there's much concern there to be honest. But an actual swarm would require something akin to bird shot on steroids. Maybe something proximity fused but their rcs and heat sigs would be very low and you wouldn't want to be launching anything that's more expensive than the target you're striking. The concern is more so China than Russia in my opinion, which is the pivot our entire military is making. They have the industrial capacity and technical ability for "drone swarms” which are coordinated, sophisticated and effective against high value targets like military bases, naval ships, etc. As far as the bold part, disagree. I would spend $1 million to take out a $1,000 weapon which could destroy a $1 billion asset, for example. The cost/reward needs to take into account the value of what you are protecting, not just the value of the defensive weapon expended.
November 3, 20223 yr 1 minute ago, TEW said: The concern is more so China than Russia in my opinion, which is the pivot our entire military is making. They have the industrial capacity and technical ability for "drone swarms” which are coordinated, sophisticated and effective against high value targets like military bases, naval ships, etc. What ?? Russia has a bunch of 50+ year old's who don't even want to fight. That doesn't scare you ??
November 3, 20223 yr 25 minutes ago, TEW said: The concern is more so China than Russia in my opinion, which is the pivot our entire military is making. They have the industrial capacity and technical ability for "drone swarms” which are coordinated, sophisticated and effective against high value targets like military bases, naval ships, etc. As far as the bold part, disagree. I would spend $1 million to take out a $1,000 weapon which could destroy a $1 billion asset, for example. The cost/reward needs to take into account the value of what you are protecting, not just the value of the defensive weapon expended. True, it depends on what exactly is vulnerable to drone attacks, but generally speaking, you don't want to put yourself in the position of firing million dollar missiles to take out thousand dollar drones at scale. Basically, we need a cheaper version of the iron dome.
November 3, 20223 yr 59 minutes ago, TEW said: As I understand it, the new RAM materials being used on the B-21 (and NGAD in the future) are supposed to cut down on maintenance by a lot. Basically the new ceramics are a small step up in radar absorption but a huge improvement in heat resistance, anti corrosion, etc which should cut down on maintenance cycles significantly. So more airframes with a faster turnaround that are cheaper to maintain. Here’s hoping! The drone swarm problem is a real quandary. I have no idea if there is a defensive counter that’s economical. Lasers, I guess, but then you’re so dependent on a reliable energy source. And even then how expensive would getting enough lasers to defend against a drone swarm be? Rather than attacking the drone is there means to jam it’s communication or guidance system? The idea of exchanging stingers/ other ordinance for lower tech doesn’t seem sustainable industrially (although better than losing soldiers).
November 3, 20223 yr Yeah that's another issue with lasers, you basically need perfect conditions for firing. Rain, fog, snow, even high levels of humidity make it a no-go.
November 3, 20223 yr 2 minutes ago, Mlodj said: It's not mounted on a shark, but... LINK 15s to kill a drone - usually the problem with lasers is that they need a lot of energy. I wonder what the rate of fire / battery capacity is… 3 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said: Yeah that's another issue with lasers, you basically need perfect conditions for firing. Rain, fog, snow, even high levels of humidity make it a no-go. Good point.
November 3, 20223 yr 5 minutes ago, Waiting4Someday said: Rather than attacking the drone is there means to jam it’s communication or guidance system? The idea of exchanging stingers/ other ordinance for lower tech doesn’t seem sustainable industrially (although better than losing soldiers). Depends on their level of sophistication but yeah I would think this would be the first line of defense against them. The issue would be avoiding interference to our own comms or friendlies.
November 3, 20223 yr 4 minutes ago, Waiting4Someday said: Rather than attacking the drone is there means to jam it’s communication or guidance system? The idea of exchanging stingers/ other ordinance for lower tech doesn’t seem sustainable industrially (although better than losing soldiers). No, you’re absolutely right. At the end of the day, war is in large part a game of economy. You need resources to win. The biggest problem today is that, unlike in day WW2, you basically fight with what you have at the start of the war. Development and production times of modern equipment is so long that you have to keep inventories high. So when we talk about defending against mass attacks, it gets very expensive very quickly.
November 3, 20223 yr 8 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said: Depends on their level of sophistication but yeah I would think this would be the first line of defense against them. The issue would be avoiding interference to our own comms or friendlies. An increased level of complexity would at least up the ante on the drone requirements and sophistication of the semi conductors needed (these are obviously sanctioned).
November 3, 20223 yr 2 minutes ago, TEW said: No, you’re absolutely right. At the end of the day, war is in large part a game of economy. You need resources to win. The biggest problem today is that, unlike in day WW2, you basically fight with what you have at the start of the war. Development and production times of modern equipment is so long that you have to keep inventories high. So when we talk about defending against mass attacks, it gets very expensive very quickly. The Chinese may have a better strategy going with high volume-lower tier systems and shoot first.
November 3, 20223 yr 5 minutes ago, Waiting4Someday said: The Chinese may have a better strategy going with high volume-lower tier systems and shoot first. They have a pretty big advantage compared to Russia in that the logistics of fighting them are much more challenging. I think you need a mix. The US approach of high tech is good because it tends to give you a huge advantage in the early days of a war. But this advantage is being slowly eroded, as China has what looks to be some pretty advanced home grown airframes of their own along with hypersonic missiles to keep our carriers far away from them. Ultimately the US is going to need a mix. We need to win the early war with tech but we also need numbers. I keep thinking that Project Mayhem and our attempts to build a hypersonic bomber will go a long way in the pacific, assuming that we can figure out the technical challenges. Instead of spending $100M per hypersonic missile, spend $1 billion (or whatever) on an airframe that can drop cheap bombs over and over again.
November 3, 20223 yr 30 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said: True, it depends on what exactly is vulnerable to drone attacks, but generally speaking, you don't want to put yourself in the position of firing million dollar missiles to take out thousand dollar drones at scale. Basically, we need a cheaper version of the iron dome. I believe the Israelis have come up with something called ‘iron fist’ that detects incoming rockets/missiles and shoots out an intercepting projectile. This is designed for tanks, but it would be interesting if was used Ukraine to allow more armor mobility (very interesting if a fixed wing/ helicopter version was developed).
November 3, 20223 yr 1 minute ago, Waiting4Someday said: I believe the Israelis have come up with something called ‘iron fist’ that detects incoming rockets/missiles and shoots out an intercepting projectile. This is designed for tanks, but it would be interesting if was used Ukraine to allow more armor mobility (very interesting if a fixed wing/ helicopter version was developed). I wonder if a drone taking out a drone is a viable option?
November 3, 20223 yr 4 minutes ago, TEW said: They have a pretty big advantage compared to Russia in that the logistics of fighting them are much more challenging. I think you need a mix. The US approach of high tech is good because it tends to give you a huge advantage in the early days of a war. But this advantage is being slowly eroded, as China has what looks to be some pretty advanced home grown airframes of their own along with hypersonic missiles to keep our carriers far away from them. Ultimately the US is going to need a mix. We need to win the early war with tech but we also need numbers. I keep thinking that Project Mayhem and our attempts to build a hypersonic bomber will go a long way in the pacific, assuming that we can figure out the technical challenges. Instead of spending $100M per hypersonic missile, spend $1 billion (or whatever) on an airframe that can drop cheap bombs over and over again. My worry is that our F-22 fleet gets hit on the ground in Okinawa. Taiwan shouldn’t keep anything of military value above ground for the same reason. Submarines I think are our best deterrent.
November 3, 20223 yr 3 minutes ago, Boogyman said: I wonder if a drone taking out a drone is a viable option? Yeah, probably but I think we getting close to Skynet type tech there.
November 3, 20223 yr Just now, Waiting4Someday said: Yeah, probably but I think we getting close to Skynet type tech. I'm just figuring the cost for a specialized drone (that wouldn't need a ton of range as a defensive measure) would be a lot less than a missile or even gun based system. I dunno, just wasting time until the game starts lol.
November 4, 20223 yr 1 hour ago, Boogyman said: I'm just figuring the cost for a specialized drone (that wouldn't need a ton of range as a defensive measure) would be a lot less than a missile or even gun based system. I dunno, just wasting time until the game starts lol. I think it has been done with a human operator already - I just figured running a 24/7 hunter drone CAP along a large front probably requires AI given the lack of early warning.
November 4, 20223 yr 4 minutes ago, Waiting4Someday said: I think it has been done with a human operator already - I just figured running a 24/7 hunter drone CAP along large front probably requires AI given the lack of early warning. I know there are drones made to take down civilian drones that are man operated. I agree they would need to be automated to be feasible.
November 4, 20223 yr 1 hour ago, Waiting4Someday said: I believe the Israelis have come up with something called ‘iron fist’ that detects incoming rockets/missiles and shoots out an intercepting projectile. This is designed for tanks, but it would be interesting if was used Ukraine to allow more armor mobility (very interesting if a fixed wing/ helicopter version was developed). Iron dome, and used in urban environments too I believe (mounted on buildings.)
November 4, 20223 yr For those not familiar with this channel, the Brit who is doing the interview is the noted aviation author Steve Davies. The doode he's interviewing is a former backseater in the F-4G. The title of the site refers to the axiom that any fighter pilot story only has to be 10% true.
November 4, 20223 yr 48 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said: Iron dome, and used in urban environments too I believe (mounted on buildings.) See link below. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Fist_(countermeasure)
November 4, 20223 yr https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/04/russia-ukraine-live-updates.html Meanwhile, Russian missiles hit populated areas of Ukraine’s southern Zaporizhzhia, the region’s governor said, although no casualties were reported. As the battles around Kherson and other parts of Ukraine’s southeast press on, reports of low Russian troop morale continue, with the UK’s Defence Ministry suggesting that Russian troops are being ordered to shoot their own soldiers if they try to retreat. Accounts of this have been shared in independent Russian media outlets.
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