From early on it has been clear that a) Ukraine will lose this war unless US and/or EU puts boots in the ground, and b) Zelenskyy knows this. For 3 years we have spent hundreds of billions of dollars - and although thousands have died and there has been mass destruction - those truths have not changed. 

I am in favor of the mineral deal because I think it has a chance of stopping the war. However, by signing it Zelenskyy is giving in to losing more land and taking NATO off the board for Ukraine. I think Trump is right when he says Z doesn’t want peace as it means admitting defeat

1 minute ago, Diehardfan said:

She actually made the Fox video that you can find from multiple sources. It's true.

You're cracked.

 

1 minute ago, Diehardfan said:

US troops on the ground in the Ukraine is the NATO issue that started the war under a different name. Yes.

Believe what you want at this point, speaking of obtuse.

Absolutely cracked.

 

Ukraine has been twice invaded by Putin and is asking for us to be a deterring force as part of a cease-fire agreement. This is not unreasonable, no matter how you try to cast it so.

Having a financial interest in their rare earth minerals - which are largely in areas controlled by Russia btw - is not a security guarantee. That's utter nonsense. 

And to be sure if I could wave my hand and admit Ukraine into NATO today I would. Because I'm not a patsy for the Russians, and I see Putin for what he is - you are choosing to not. 

2 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

You're cracked.

 

Absolutely cracked.

 

Ukraine has been twice invaded by Putin and is asking for us to be a deterring force as part of a cease-fire agreement. This is not unreasonable, no matter how you try to cast it so.

Having a financial interest in their rare earth minerals - which are largely in areas controlled by Russia btw - is not a security guarantee. That's utter nonsense. 

And to be sure if I could wave my hand and admit Ukraine into NATO today I would. Because I'm not a patsy for the Russians, and I see Putin for what he is - you are choosing to not. 

Glad we had this talk.

34 minutes ago, Diehardfan said:

First one that came up is one that will trigger TDS folk. Perfect.

You never even listened to what he said.  He never said the deal was done or that Z agreed to a deal without security agreements.

But ya know, you just take Insurrection Barbie for her word.

28 minutes ago, Diehardfan said:

We can play all day but the bottom line is there is no way in hell Trump would have invited him to come in if it

That summary shows the US framework and NOT anything at all about Z accepting it.

I'm starting to move into the "you are incredibly stupid camp" but show me that isn't correct.

Of course Trump would bring him in as he knows that Z will be under immense pressure once he gets to Wash plus they were close enough to warrant a final push f2f.  However, there was a sticky point which turned out to be a deal closer.

 

Oh now you guys care about (yet clearly don't understand) the Logan act 

How quickly the worm has turned

 

5 hours ago, DrPhilly said:

the funny part is you thinking that Zelensky had that goal

I don't think there is anything funny about. 

I do think it's a Europe problem and it's time for them to get their s*** together.

We got bigger fish to fry.

3 hours ago, we_gotta_believe said:

 

Trumpbots like diehard loved Zelensky a few years ago and credited him with turning back the Russian invasion to avoid praising Biden. Now that Trump is in office, Zelensky and NATO suddenly become the enemy. Gee, what an odd turn of events, I wonder what could've changed. Besides the cessation of diehards meds.

Suddenly? 

FOCUS

14 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

That summary shows the US framework and NOT anything at all about Z accepting it.

I'm starting to move into the "you are incredibly stupid camp" but show me that isn't correct.

Of course Trump would bring him in as he knows that Z will be under immense pressure once he gets to Wash plus they were close enough to warrant a final push f2f.  However, there was a sticky point which turned out to be a deal closer.

Honestly, I'm moving there with you as well but instead of stupid just not seeing things because I know you aren't dumb. There is no way he'd bring him in if that non starter wasn't cleared up.

 

20 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

You never even listened to what he said.  He never said the deal was done or that Z agreed to a deal without security agreements.

But ya know, you just take Insurrection Barbie for her word.

Like I said when I posted it wasn't her making the video it was Rubio talking about it. He said all he needed to do was sign. Again, US troops on the ground isn't a small issue. It's a deal breaker. No way he comes in if that wasn't cleared up and he backed out. You can think I'm dumb. I'll think you just are seeing it the way you want to and we'll move on.

20 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

...Insurrection Barbie...

pics?

6 minutes ago, Procus said:

How quickly the worm has turned

 

Sounds like a guy who got ambushed and not someone who knows he f'ed up

Obviously, this was a public embarrassment and it was Trump at his worst.  Made us look terrible and probably further galvanized Putin.  Everyone will measure this on their pre plotted pro/anti Trump agenda, but I've been trying to objectively understand what the hell happened here and I just can't get there.  Can anyone figure out what Zelensky was trying to accomplish? 

I understand he wanted more security guarantees, but they could have just pushed off the singing while he kept that on the table.  Maybe garner more support from the Europeans by re-negging on the deal and starting a war of words with the US? But why walk away from the table with a major ally? 

Just seems very odd to me that he would fly all the way over here on the pretense that he would work through the final details of the deal and then publicly light it on fire.  Not sure how any of this helps Ukraine.

4 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

Obviously, this was a public embarrassment and it was Trump at his worst.  Made us look terrible and probably further galvanized Putin.  Everyone will measure this on their pre plotted pro/anti Trump agenda, but I've been trying to objectively understand what the hell happened here and I just can't get there.  Can anyone figure out what Zelensky was trying to accomplish? 

I understand he wanted more security guarantees, but they could have just pushed off the singing while he kept that on the table.  Maybe garner more support from the Europeans by re-negging on the deal and starting a war of words with the US? But why walk away from the table with a major ally? 

Just seems very odd to me that he would fly all the way over here on the pretense that he would work through the final details of the deal and then publicly light it on fire.  Not sure how any of this helps Ukraine.

I think your instincts are spot on. Also, regardless of what people want to believe was agreed to or not there isn't going to be peace if there is a security agreement with US troops on the ground. Russia will never go for that and the war won't end or it escalates with us getting dragged into it.

2 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

Obviously, this was a public embarrassment and it was Trump at his worst.  Made us look terrible and probably further galvanized Putin.  Everyone will measure this on their pre plotted pro/anti Trump agenda, but I've been trying to objectively understand what the hell happened here and I just can't get there.  Can anyone figure out what Zelensky was trying to accomplish? 

I understand he wanted more security guarantees, but they could have just pushed off the singing while he kept that on the table.  Maybe garner more support from the Europeans by re-negging on the deal and starting a war of words with the US? But why walk away from the table with a major ally? 

Just seems very odd to me that he would fly all the way over here on the pretense that he would work through the final details of the deal and then publicly light it on fire.  Not sure how any of this helps Ukraine.

It's not "more security guarantees". It's any security guarantees.  Otherwise an agreement makes no sense from his POV. 

And his blow up is pretty simple imo. He's been fighting to defend his country from invaders for 4 years now and you have a sniveling like rat Fer like Vance tell you to kiss the ring.  I imagine most people would have a pretty intense reaction to that. 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, DEagle7 said:

It's not "more security guarantees". It's any security guarantees.  Otherwise an agreement makes no sense from his POV. 

And his blow up is pretty simple imo. He's been fighting to defend his country from invaders for 4 years now and you have a sniveling like rat Fer like Vance tell you to kiss the ring.  I imagine most people would have a pretty intense reaction to that. 

Nope, he walked away from the deal before Vance even said anything.

6 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

Nope, he walked away from the deal before Vance even said anything.

Because there were no security guarantees. We essentially offered them nothing and then acted pissy when he didn't bow down with gratitude. 

24 minutes ago, DEagle7 said:

Because there were no security guarantees. We essentially offered them nothing and then acted pissy when he didn't bow down with gratitude. 

This is exactly my point.  It's fine if he didn't like the deal, but he made every indication to the contrary.  Then he agreed to fly over here and do this signing only to set the whole thing ablaze when he got here.  Very odd.

22 hours ago, Procus said:

Some inconvenient truths about the Zelensky regime that the leftists here don't want to admit to

 

On "terget" is a good way to put it Trumptards. 

She secretly met with Assad. She's been a Russian asset for years. 

8 minutes ago, Gannan said:

On "terget" is a good way to put it Trumptards. 

She secretly met with Assad. She's been a Russian asset for years. 

Do you see any Russian assets in the room with you right now?

52 minutes ago, Procus said:

How quickly the worm has turned

You Fing idiot, he's said thank you 35x over the last couple of years and yes that number is accurate.